Reconciling Jesus becoming God and Hebrews 13:8

[curtishouse]

If I understand the LDS doctrine correctly, Jesus wasn't always God. He attained his "Godhood" status by living such a righteous life...If I'm wrong anywhere, please correct me. If this is the case, how does the LDS church reconcile that belief with Hebrews 13:8 which states "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

[pam]

My perspective, it's referring more to the gospel of Jesus Christ. What he stands for etc.

“…there is no inconsistency in the gospel plan that Heavenly Father has given us. Indeed, Heavenly Father's house is a house of order. We are told it is the same yesterday, today and forever. (See Heb. 13:8)

“The instability and frustration of the world today is largely due to too many people who are straddling too many fences. To live one's life on a foundation of inconsistency is to live on shifting sands.” (October 19, 1965, BYU Speeches of the Year, 1965, p. 5.)

[jadams_4040]

If I understand the LDS doctrine correctly, Jesus wasn't always God. He attained his "Godhood" status by living such a righteous life...If I'm wrong anywhere, please correct me. If this is the case, how does the LDS church reconcile that belief with Hebrews 13:8 which states "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

From all the posts you have put up recently; i would bravely and assuradly be able to say that you allready know the answer.

[curtishouse]

My perspective, it's referring more to the gospel of Jesus Christ. What he stands for etc.

I guess that could be applied to the Gospel...but what about Malachi 3:6 when it states "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." I know in Malachi 3:5, it is talking about God's judgment but is that all it is talking about? If God is not changing in one area, is it ONLY talking about that one area or would He be unchanged of all aspects as well?

On a sidenote, as I'm learning more and more, it is getting very strange. I see so many people saying bad things about the LDS church and how it isn't "Christian" and such(not in here of course)...But this voice inside me coming straight from my heart is saying, " I don't care what other people are saying! I know this is true no matter what people are saying! What about that?? LOL" Just thought I'd share that and see if others have had that experience before.

[pam]

Again when I read those verses in Malachi..look at verse 7.

¶ Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

What I get from Malachi 3:5-7 is..that His ordinances or His commandments or His thoughts on sorcerers, adulterers, false swearers etc. has not changed. He is stating, they have turned away from what He and their fathers were taught and if they were to return to following his commandments He would once again return to them.

[pam]

On a sidenote, as I'm learning more and more, it is getting very strange. I see so many people saying bad things about the LDS church and how it isn't "Christian" and such(not in here of course)...But this voice inside me coming straight from my heart is saying, " I don't care what other people are saying! I know this is true no matter what people are saying! What about that?? LOL" Just thought I'd share that and see if others have had that experience before.

I think people attack what they don't understand. Even sometimes when they find something they perceive to be threatening even when it's not.

I can tell you though. I firmly believe the gospel to be true.

[curtishouse]

I think people attack what they don't understand. Even sometimes when they find something they perceive to be threatening even when it's not.

I can tell you though. I firmly believe the gospel to be true.

Yeah there a bunch of websites out there that just attack without really doing their homework or quote Bible verses that are completely out of context just to prove "I'm right and you're wrong." That's why I think forums with tons of different beliefs get so popular. It's a lot less about coming together to discuss and more about proving they're right unfortunately.

That's why I really like it here. If I have a question, people really help me to understand and I'm learning so much! It's great!

It's amazing what prayer, reading the Scriptures (not "just" the Bible), and going to the source for answers instead of reading what somebody that has an axe to grind will do :)

[pam]

As others have said on this site before. If you want to learn about Catholics..go to a Catholic website, If you want to learn about Baptists...if you want to learn about LDS. You get the idea.

Why not just go to the source and ask questions? We can give you the best answers we know how to give. It's up to you or anyone else to decide if they want to accept the answers.

[curtishouse]

As others have said on this site before. If you want to learn about Catholics..go to a Catholic website, If you want to learn about Baptists...if you want to learn about LDS. You get the idea.

Why not just go to the source and ask questions? We can give you the best answers we know how to give. It's up to you or anyone else to decide if they want to accept the answers.

Yep and that's exactly what I'm doing I think it's fair to see both sides of the equation and if somebody has an objection about the LDS church, I come to y'all or ask the Mormon missionary I've been speaking with online, etc. If it's the fullness of the Gospel, it will be proven as Truth. If I haven't said it enough, thanks to you and everybody else on this site as well as Heavenly Father who has guided me here as well through my old friend from high school. It's definitely been a fun journey so far. :)

[pam]

You're quite welcome. I don't even begin to profess I have all the answers. But I do enjoy searching for answers to questions that I might not have an answer for.

[curtishouse]

You're quite welcome. I don't even begin to profess I have all the answers. But I do enjoy searching for answers to questions that I might not have an answer for.

None of us have all the answers...I think that's one of the big reasons for prayer...Even though we don't have the answers, Heavenly Father truly does...You know, before I started learning about the LDS faith, I thought it was "weird" to call God; Heavenly Father...But now that's how I start all my prayers and thinking about how He truly is our literal Father in Heaven, it makes me feel even closer to Him when I pray.

[pam]

Perhaps it's because so many think of God as just a supreme being. To REALLY know him and to understand our relationship with him, we have to understand that he really is our Father in Heaven or Heavenly Father. It puts it at so much more of a personal level and makes it appear that He is far more approachable that way.

As far as talking to Him, I kind of like to think of it in the same way as with our own children. I have teenagers. I would like to think that as their mother they would feel comfortable enough to come and talk to me about anything that is bothering them. Heavenly Father is the same way. We are his children and he wants us to feel that way.

[curtishouse]

Perhaps it's because so many think of God as just a supreme being. To REALLY know him and to understand our relationship with him, we have to understand that he really is our Father in Heaven or Heavenly Father. It puts it at so much more of a personal level and makes it appear that He is far more approachable that way.

As far as talking to Him, I kind of like to think of it in the same way as with our own children. I have teenagers. I would like to think that as their mother they would feel comfortable enough to come and talk to me about anything that is bothering them. Heavenly Father is the same way. We are his children and he wants us to feel that way.

To be honest, at first when I was learning about the LDS faith, it seemed to be pulling me away from God a bit...Not really sure the reason why...But, as I continued to pray about it and reading not only the Bible as I continue to do, but also some of the Book of Moses as well as the Book of Mormon, my faith seems to be growing...I feel a much stronger relationship with Heavenly Father now and Jesus as well...Also thinking of Jesus Christ not only as my Savior and Redeemer but also as a loving older brother who would do anything for you, really helps personalize Jesus in my life as well. What an awesome family we have in Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ! :)

[pam]

Out of curiosity, what about it seemed to be pulling you away from God a bit?

[curtishouse]

Out of curiosity, what about it seemed to be pulling you away from God a bit?

I'm not quite sure...It could have been learning about these new books and questioning God and what exactly His Word truly is. Probably just questioning a lot of things in general. It was like putting together a puzzle for a bit and wondering how this piece could fit into the puzzle. Just had to take a step back and let Heavenly Father answer things. Everything still doesn't make perfect sense but the puzzle is definitely becoming a lot clearer to see.

[pam]

To use the saying "Line upon line, precept upon precept." Far too many times those investigating want all the answers and they want them now. I like your analogy of pieces of a puzzle. In learning, you start with a piece of the puzzle, one at a time, and little by little you end up with a completed puzzle.

Keeping in mind of course, that one of our articles of faith states:

We believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal, and we believe that he will YET reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. (I added the bold)

We don't have all the answers to all of life's mysteries. Some of those things Heavenly Father hasn't revealed to us. Perhaps He's not ready and more importantly perhaps we aren't ready. I would vote more for the latter.

[curtishouse]

To use the saying "Line upon line, precept upon precept." Far too many times those investigating want all the answers and they want them now. I like your analogy of pieces of a puzzle. In learning, you start with a piece of the puzzle, one at a time, and little by little you end up with a completed puzzle.

Keeping in mind of course, that one of our articles of faith states:

We believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal, and we believe that he will YET reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. (I added the bold)

We don't have all the answers to all of life's mysteries. Some of those things Heavenly Father hasn't revealed to us. Perhaps He's not ready and more importantly perhaps we aren't ready. I would vote more for the latter.

I admit that I would LOVE to have all the answers but, even if I was blessed with them, I probably wouldn't be able to accept them.

Going from a Baptist church that believes in Faith Alone and the Bible alone to learning about the LDS faith that has additional books as well as prophets and revelations is a huge leap in of itself.

I'm learning what I can piece by piece and, when questions arise, I ask and keep on talking about it until it makes sense to me.

It always seemed strange to me that Heavenly Father was talking to so many people all through the Old Testament and there were prophets galore...Then, once Jesus came, we were just supposed to believe that God wouldn't reveal anything new because Jesus Christ came down to earth and died for our sins? Knowing that God still reveals things to us, as we can handle them, is a great thought. I definitely know I'm not ready for any new revelations. I'm having enough trouble as it is dealing with the knowledge that God has bestowed upon us 200 years ago! LOL

[pam]

I've been a member of the Church my entire life. It's hard sometimes to relate to the experiences of a person investigating the Church. Things I take for granted as knowing aren't always a easy concept for someone who has never heard them before to accept.

That being said, I've read the Book of Mormon numerous times in my lifetime. I've always believed the words written are true. A few months ago I read it through again. I think it was the first time in my lifetime that I REALLY felt a connection to it. That I felt a connection to the prophets written about in it. How much wisdom was in their words and teachings. Also how those words could be related to today's world. It was a great feeling. I'm planning on reading it again after the first of the year.

[curtishouse]

I've been a member of the Church my entire life. It's hard sometimes to relate to the experiences of a person investigating the Church. Things I take for granted as knowing aren't always a easy concept for someone who has never heard them before to accept.

That being said, I've read the Book of Mormon numerous times in my lifetime. I've always believed the words written are true. A few months ago I read it through again. I think it was the first time in my lifetime that I REALLY felt a connection to it. That I felt a connection to the prophets written about in it. How much wisdom was in their words and teachings. Also how those words could be related to today's world. It was a great feeling. I'm planning on reading it again after the first of the year.

Yeah I'm starting to read it online...Can't wait for my hard copy to get here in the mail so I can really get into it...From what I've read so far, it really does seem like the Word of God to me but I've only read the beginning first few chapters of 1Nephi though...Definitely loving it so far...Also the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price has really intrigued me...It really makes Genesis seem more full and explains a lot of things.

[pam]

You might want to read some of the things we posted when doing a 40 day reading challenge.

40 Day Reading Challenge - BOM, D&C, POGP - LDS Mormon Forums

Also I have the forum of Book of Mormon Scripture readings where I post a scripture each day and a quote for discussion.

[curtishouse]

You might want to read some of the things we posted when doing a 40 day reading challenge.

40 Day Reading Challenge - BOM, D&C, POGP - LDS Mormon Forums

Also I have the forum of Book of Mormon Scripture readings where I post a scripture each day and a quote for discussion.

I'll definitely check it out...Must head off to bed though...It's 2:20 am here and got to be up at 8 am...Talk to you later and thanks for the headsup on the scripture readings! God bless.

[fatima]

If I understand the LDS doctrine correctly, Jesus wasn't always God. He attained his "Godhood" status by living such a righteous life...If I'm wrong anywhere, please correct me. If this is the case, how does the LDS church reconcile that belief with Hebrews 13:8 which states "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

How timely is this question? I've been trying to hammer out an understanding on other threads. No one has answered your question yet, on this thread. I've been told that Jesus was, indeed, part of the Godhead before becoming man and living a righteous life, which, as I see it, is in direct contradiction to what I think I've understood so far about LDS doctrine; that is, that living a righteous life is a pre-requisite to exaltation.

[pam]

Interesting. I thought I had answered his question concerning the interpretation of that scripture.

[fatima]

Interesting. I thought I had answered his question concerning the interpretation of that scripture.

Well, you did provide some Scriptures, but I see those as speaking of God's chosen people of the OT. Jesus rebuked Pharisees, etc for being hypocrites and demanding letter of the law without love of the law. My Bible isn't nearby right now, but I'll provide a particular passage later.

Anyway, I agree that Jesus Christ established His Church when He was on earth, but I see nothing that in any way indicates that that church, too, would apostatsize and would have to be re-established again.

But back to the OP. He asks if Jesus was always part of the Godhead. I've been told that He was. Yet, I've also understood (though not from this site, and I'm here for correct understanding) that living righteously is necessary for Godhood. Even God the Father had to go through that process, yet Jesus did not? Doesn't that, by logical consequence, make Jesus greater than God the Father? Jesus was always part of the Godhead, whereas God the Father was not? That's what it looks like to me.

[pam]

I agree that Jesus Christ established His Church when He was on earth, but I see nothing that in any way indicates that that church, too, would apostatsize and would have to be re-established again.

There are actually scriptures that prophecy of an apostasy that would occur. One that comes to mind immediately is:

Acts: 20:28-30

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Here is also a talk that I have on file that explains about the great apostasy. You can read it here