Is Heavenly Father the First God?

[curtishouse]

According to LDS doctrine, is Heavenly Father the First God? Jesus Christ, as well as all of us, are children of His but is there a God above Heavenly Father? I'm sure our finite brains can't truly comprehend this but I'm trying to get it straight as I possibly can...Since Jesus Christ is God and attained it, I'm assuming that Heavenly Father became a God in the same such manner? If so, did Heavenly Father have a Father as well? It's almost like a spirit genealogy LOL Well hopefully y'all get what I'm talking about. Any answers on this would be greatly appreciated.

[symphonyofdissent]

The correct answer to this question is that we do not know! Joseph Smith and others hypothesized that answer was that there was an chain of gods. ( I hold a different view myself but its merely speculative) However, we know nothing about God aside from his encounters with mankind.

I suggest Moses 1 in the Pearl of Great Price

36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.

37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

40 And now, Moses, my son, I will speak unto thee concerning this earth upon which thou standest; and thou shalt write the things which I shall speak.

Moses is asking God to reveal to him the mysteries of the universe. Perhaps he is grappling with exactly these sorts of metaphysical questions. God's response is to tell Moses that he is God and that the mysteries of the universe are his. All that we need to know is that what God is doing for us. He is working to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life which is an incredible thing indeed.

[Misshalfway]

Hi Curtis. I just wanted to say that I appreciate the gentle manner in which you ask your questions. It makes answering so much more enjoyable.

You are now in speculation territory as far as LDS doctrine is concern. This is a mystery of God to discover truly how Gods came to be. There is a scripture in the D&C 121 that gives us another glimmer. This revelation came while the prophet Joseph Smith and others were imprisioned in Liberty Jail. JSmith was crying to God concerning why he was called to suffer so and why God seemed not to intervene. The Lord answers Joseph's question by opening his mind to a more eternal perspective of things and told Joseph of a time when (as it says in vs. 28) ,..."A time to come in the which nothing (meaning knowledge) shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest."

We don't know where our Father came from. We don't' know exactly how He came to be. We have been given little peeks that, IMO, sometimes cause more confusion than clarity and sometimes cause people to define a truth when perhaps they shouldn't.

On another thread of yours, you and Pam were talking about puzzle pieces and learning spiritual truths "line upon line, precept upon precept." I think what happens is that the Lord gives a few pieces to the puzzle, and we in our impatience finish the puzzle in our minds before He does. Sometimes I hear LDS's people get really empassioned about these mysteries and share their finished puzzles when perhaps they are only the ideas of men mingled with scripture. You see what I am saying?

Now......let's say there is more than one Father God out there in the great expanse. What would that mean for us? Absolutely nothing. It just means that their may be life beyond our universe....beyond our frame of reference or influence. And their existance to us today is irrelevant. We answer to our Father. If my dad says be home at 10pm yet all the other dad's in the neighborhood set different curfews, it matters not because I must answer only to my father.

Does that make sense?

I also want to say something about Jesus. Our understanding of Jesus and how he progressed is perhaps a little better understood, but that doesn't mean there aren't some profound puzzle pieces missing. I am uncomfortable thinking that Jesus developed from an imperfect being into a perfect one. That is not what even our beloved BofM teaches. We are to understand fundamentally now that the Godhead, all members, are all powerful and omniscient and omnipresent and the same today, tomorrow and forever. I am learning, I think, that one's spiritual nature can stay constant while perhaps ones physical body needs progression. It would seem to me that even the idea of the Trinity includes that perfection remains even though a God would come to earth to change physically.

I have advised this before with other inquiries, but I will say it again. It may be more important at this stage of the game for you, and maybe for most of the rest of us, to make sure that we understand the PRINCIPLE of eternal progression. How it happens for the Godhead and for us, may have some fundamental differences. But eternal progression is a principle that is part of the fabric of eternal law. I don't know......Get yourself a cup of hot chocolate and give that a pondering.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Misshalfway
typed the wrong word

[Wingnut]

According to LDS doctrine, is Heavenly Father the First God?

...

Since Jesus Christ is God and attained it, I'm assuming that Heavenly Father became a God in the same such manner?

...

If so, did Heavenly Father have a Father as well?

I think you already answered your questions. This isn't really something we have a lot of information on, and I don't think that it's anything that is truly important for us to know as we go through this life. But I think you already gave an excellent answer:

I'm sure our finite brains can't truly comprehend this...

(By the way, I like the phrase "spirit genealogy."

[BenRaines]

As far as it matters to me He is the only God, The Father, that I have. I believe His Son to be a God too, a member of the Godhead but as far as God The Father he is the only one I believe in and revere.

All the rest is guessing and really for our personal salvation does not matter.

Ben Raines

[curtishouse]

Part of the reason I bring this up is certain verses like this that state:

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

According to this Scripture, there are no other Gods. What is the LDS interpretation of this?

[curtishouse]

Hi Curtis. I just wanted to say that I appreciate the gentle manner in which you ask your questions. It makes answering so much more enjoyable.

No problem. I'm pretty laid back and just sincerely looking and learning. I think that's what drives me away from Theology forums for the most part. Just way too much yelling LOL

You are now in speculation territory as far as LDS doctrine is concern. This is a mystery of God to discover truly how Gods came to be. There is a scripture in the D&C 121 that gives us another glimmer. This revelation came while the prophet Joseph Smith and others were imprisioned in Liberty Jail. JSmith was crying to God concerning why he was called to suffer so and why God seemed not to intervene. The Lord answers Joseph's question by opening his mind to a more eternal perspective of things and told Joseph of a time when (as it says in vs. 28) ,..."A time to come in the which nothing (meaning knowledge) shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest."

It's good to know that this is speculation so the LDS church doesn't have an official teaching on this. Also that revelation that the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith definitely gives me hope that hopefully someday the truth will be revealed.

On another thread of yours, you and Pam were talking about puzzle pieces and learning spiritual truths "line upon line, precept upon precept." I think what happens is that the Lord gives a few pieces to the puzzle, and we in our impatience finish the puzzle in our minds before He does. Sometimes I hear LDS's people get really empassioned about these mysteries and share their finished puzzles when perhaps they are only the ideas of men mingled with scripture. You see what I am saying?

I definitely get what you're saying. That's why I'm taking it all piece by piece. If I was somehow given the whole puzzle by Heavenly Father in its Fullness right off the bat, my head would probably explode from my lack of understanding LOL

Now......let's say there is more than one Father God out there in the great expanse. What would that mean for us? Absolutely nothing. It just means that their may be life beyond our universe....beyond our frame of reference or influence. And their existance to us today is irrelevant. We answer to our Father. If my dad says be home at 10pm yet all the other dad's in the neighborhood set different curfews, it matters not because I must answer only to my father.

Does that make sense?

Great analogy!

I have advised this before with other inquiries, but I will say it again. It may be more important at this stage of the game for you, and maybe for most of the rest of us, to make sure that we understand the PRINCIPLE of eternal progression. How it happens for the Godhead and for us, may have some fundamental differences. But eternal progression is a principle that is part of the fabric of eternal law. I don't know......Get yourself a cup of hot chocolate and give that a pondering.

What exactly is the principle of eternal progression? I understand the basic concept of it but is there a link or could you tell me more about it to make sure were on the same page? Thanks! :)

[curtishouse]

All the rest is guessing and really for our personal salvation does not matter.

Ben Raines

This is an interesting topic in itself. According to LDS doctrine, what exactly did Jesus's death on the cross save us from? It seems that only the sons of perdition will be the ones to burn in Hell for all eternity, correct? Then what exactly is it? I know I have so many questions but it's just a burden y'all are gonna have to bear LOL

[Guest xforeverxmetalx]

I've wondered about that awhile ago... I figured, maybe there was a god of gods, and there were other universes with their own gods, possibly, but then who created that god? and who created that one? obviously we don't know much at all, but I just figured that God always existed. doesn't make logical sense, but neither does the concept of time never beginning or ending. it's complicated, we're not supposed to understand it.

This is an interesting topic in itself. According to LDS doctrine, what exactly did Jesus's death on the cross save us from? It seems that only the sons of perdition will be the ones to burn in Hell for all eternity, correct? Then what exactly is it? I know I have so many questions but it's just a burden y'all are gonna have to bear LOL

if I understand correctly, we still suffer for our sins, just not eternally.

[curtishouse]

if I understand correctly, we still suffer for our sins, just not eternally.

Is that talked about in the Bible anywhere? When it comes to suffering or condemnation, the Bible says this:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[BenRaines]

curtis, your are right in that only the most vile offenders of Christ, those that truly come to know him and then reject him. Only Christ will be the one to judge who falls in to that category will be cast in to outer darkness.

It has always been explained to me that it will be an emotional hell to be separated from Christ and the Father, depending on our lack of faithfulness or faithfulness.

We are not to judge but do our best to live a Christlike life.

We believe the God of the Old Testament is Jehovah or Jesus Christ. The Children of Israel were his chosen people. He still answered to God, The Father. You can see from the writings in the Old Testament that they were given very specific laws to obey, hard hearted that the majority of the people were.

Ben Raines

[curtishouse]

We believe the God of the Old Testament is Jehovah or Jesus Christ. The Children of Israel were his chosen people. He still answered to God, The Father. You can see from the writings in the Old Testament that they were given very specific laws to obey, hard hearted that the majority of the people were.

Ben Raines

Yes the Law was put into place to show that we can't reach Heaven on our own...We needed Christ to put our sins on Himself because we could never be justified by works.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

[curtishouse]

I also want to say something about Jesus. Our understanding of Jesus and how he progressed is perhaps a little better understood, but that doesn't mean there aren't some profound puzzle pieces missing. I am uncomfortable thinking that Jesus developed from an imperfect being into a perfect one. That is not what even our beloved BofM teaches.

If the Book of Mormon (or any other book I'm assuming) doesn't teach this, then why does the LDS church believe this?

[Misshalfway]

If the Book of Mormon (or any other book I'm assuming) doesn't teach this, then why does the LDS church believe this?

We don't teach it and we don't believe it. Progression does not necessarily mean that the person progressing isn't perfect. We believe that He was God before he came to the earth and perfect and powerful in all ways, but that he needed an earthlife experience (IE. gaining a body, overcoming the flesh, growing grace for grace, then later an resurrected body). We all need to gain a body and overcome the flesh for our progression, but not all of us came to save the earth and was perfect while doing it.

Edited November 8, 2009 by pam
body instead of boy :)

[bytebear]

Part of the reason I bring this up is certain verses like this that state:

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

According to this Scripture, there are no other Gods. What is the LDS interpretation of this?

Take these verses, but instead of thinking of God the Father, think of Jesus Christ as God. There is no other savior, no other name by which we may be saved. If you think of God in terms of salvation, then these verses make perfect sense. Even if there are a million other exalted beings out there who are just like God, there is still only one who we look toward for salvation.

[hordak]

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345–46).

I don't know why people are saying it's speculation.

This comes directly from the Gospel Principal manual, the manual used to teach new members. If that doesn't qualify as doctrine i don't know what does.

[Misshalfway]

Thanks for the edit, Pam. :)

[Misshalfway]

I don't know why people are saying it's speculation.

This comes directly from the Gospel Principal manual, the manual used to teach new members. If that doesn't qualify as doctrine i don't know what does.

The quote you brought ONLY teaches that there was progression involed with how God became God and that Jesus' life is a good model. It doesn't explain if there are other gods in the universe or if our God has a father. Likely assumptions, yes. But there is a limit to our official understanding of what JSmith was trying to teach.

And we also do not teach that the progression includes God being sinful and imperfect and then becoming exalted. Even in the quote....Father progressed perfectly like the Savior did. Not imperfectly and with help like we do. Any conversation in these doctrinal realms is speculation. There is a place at which our understand ends and we are there.

[Misshalfway]

I don't know why people are saying it's speculation.

This comes directly from the Gospel Principal manual, the manual used to teach new members. If that doesn't qualify as doctrine i don't know what does.

You don't think that the question of the geneology of God the father is speculation?

I think we can make some logical assumptions, but to say that those are official doctrines is a stretch.

[fatima]

As far as it matters to me He is the only God, The Father, that I have. I believe His Son to be a God too, a member of the Godhead but as far as God The Father he is the only one I believe in and revere.

All the rest is guessing and really for our personal salvation does not matter.

Ben Raines

With all due respect, I would think that it matters a great deal. I mean, if there is another god (sorry, cannot capitalize that) I'm not sure why we worship God the Father only? If we do not know that other god, who, it seems to, must be higher in the order of gods, we cannot know what is to come. I mean, our God is a jealous God, so what if it turns out that other gods are jealous, too? We do not know their nature so we cannot assume that they are good. In fact, it could be that our God is leading people away from the even greater exaltation to secure His own place.

Wasn't one of the primary accomplishments of Jesus to reveal the Father to us? We do know Him, and He is the One, True God, who is the creator of all things in the universe and beyond.

This is one of the things I consider very... about LDS theology. If there is another god greater than our God, logic seems to say we should be worshipping him. I assume LDS would say that the previous god gave over the earth to God the Father, but if we don't believe God the Father was the first and eternal, we simply do not know that for sure.

I'm sure this is supremely confusing, I'm confused myself.

[hordak]

You don't think that the question of the geneology of God the father is speculation?

I think we can make some logical assumptions, but to say that those are official doctrines is a stretch.

Are the manuals taught in church doctrine?

[Wingnut]

The manuals are not scripture.

[HillCumorahCC]

The manuals are not scripture.

If it is speculative and it isn't encouraged to go into speculation, why would the 1st Presidency approve it to be included in the manual and taught to investigators and new converts?

Edited November 9, 2009 by HillCumorahCC
grammar

[Misshalfway]

You show me a passage where we are teaching about Gods father.

It is also my understanding that the new GP manual tends to move to a less specific place on the KFD ideas.

[Wingnut]

If it is speculative and it isn't encouraged to go into speculation, why would the 1st Presidency approve it to be included in the manual and taught to investigators and new converts?

Perhaps you should ask the First Presidency. The missionaries are called to preach faith, repentance, baptism, the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end.