Proof That Moses Was A Sham!

[Guest ApostleKnight]

My Hebrew teacher told me this joke, and seeing as how lots of posts lately deal with how all or most of the Bible is just farce, I couldn't help but share it as I feel it is SOOOOOOO timely. :)

So a guy graduates from college with a degree in science. He scorns those with faith in God and believes only in empirical data. Well, one day he's walking through the park when he sees a young boy sitting on a bench. He's holding a Bible on his lap with one hand on it, and one hand in the air. He's shouting, "Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! Praise God!"

The graduate privately nurtures thoughts of embarassing all fools who believe in religion, and sees this as an excellent opportunity to set this kid straight and maybe save him from a lifetime of blind obedience to a myth. So he walks over and asks, "What's going on boy? Why are you saying that?"

The boy looks up with bright eyes and says, "Because I just read about how God parted the Red Sea for Moses and all Israel to pass through!" The graduate sighs, shakes his head and decides to exhibit his newly gained knowledge.

"Kid, scientists have narrowed down the time of when Moses lived based on descriptions of the Egyptian kingdom, history and pharaohship in the Bible. They've found that at that time period, the Red Sea at the place Moses claims he crossed was actually only three feet deep, and an easterly wind blowing at ten miles an hour was enough to move most of the water for them. So your miracle is really not that impressive at all."

The graduate smiles smugly as the kid lowers his head and hand and stares blankly at the Bible. As he's walking away, the graduate hears the boy start shouting again, "Hallelujah! Praise God! Praise the Lord!" Stomping back over to the bench, the graduate growls, "Why're you saying that stuff again? Didn't you hear what I said?"

The boy is smiling bigger than ever as he says, "Yep, I did. So I was really amazed when I read that God drowned the whole Egytian army with three feet of water!"

Any coin collectors out there? 'Cause you're welcome to keep my two cents if you want. That's basically what I think about all the winds of doctrine and philosophies of men out there...God lives as does His Son Jesus, and they have or will make it possible for everyone to have the same chance to accept them and become the kind of beings they are with all happiness in the world!

Concerning those who accept them, I think it's safe to say, "and they all lived happily ever after." :) I do know most of us have plenty of chances to change and grow and that's an incredibly encouraging thing to me and my imperfect self!

[Jason]

The Grad student's not too bright.

The math alone makes the whole Exodus story more incredible than pixie dust.

If you haven't read why the Exodus is beyond reasonable, then please read here.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 19 2005, 06:30 PM

If you haven't read why the Exodus is beyond reasonable, then please read here.

←

You obviously missed the satirical tone of my post. I've heard a plethora of reasons why the Bible is not authentic or valuable as a source of faith. Please see here for my reaction:

http://www.sticks'n'stones.net/Idon'tCare.asp

For anyone who might miss the satirical tone of THIS post, please note that the URL above is not real, but rather, a medium of expressing one's opinion through absurdity. :)

One thing I will give you Jason, you have probably read more than most people I know, so props for that. I said most people, not all. I've been swimming laps in the (anti-mormon) lake of fire and brimstone for years and years and well, the heat doesn't really bother me that much. In fact, on particularly cold days when I'm bored, a jaunt through that magma-like cesspool of inaccuracies and absurdities can really brighten my day as I realize the weakness of the anti's position. Not that you're anti, or you're not anti, I'm just saying that alot of what you bring up beefs up my testimony when thoroughly studied (as Snow sagely observed). So thanks. :)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

As an aside, I'd rather focus on the lessons learned from the story of David and Goliath, than worry about whether the Hebrew word for cubit (aw-maw') was translated correctly in the KJV or whether Goliath's spear weighed 18.5 lbs. or 8 lbs. as per the shekel weight at the time.

The end result is the same, through small and simple things (a stone) great things are brought to pass (the defeat of an entire army). I don't really care whether Goliath was 11 ft. tall or 16 ft. tall. What I do care about is the fact that God aids His servants.

The mathematics of miracles aside, knowing I am not alone in even the most mundane act of mortality (or even fighting a giant, haven't had the chance yet though) is precious knowledge birthed of hope and faith. I've found in my own life and others' lives that reading between the lines often results in looking beyond the mark. I realize you're not necessarily reading between the lines. I do appreciate your abundance of sources though, I'm always interested in the latest theory about why all us brainwashed Christians/LDS are crazy. :)

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 19 2005, 04:30 PM

The Grad student's not too bright. 

The math alone makes the whole Exodus story more incredible than pixie dust. 

If you haven't read why the Exodus is beyond reasonable, then please read here.

←

The problem is not with the Exodus story, the problem is with the assumptions made when coming up with the numbers to use for the calculations.

For instance, Joseph Wheless, the guy who wrote that article, assumed that the phrase “in the fourth generation” meant that Jacob and his next 4 generations of children were the only ones to have any children from the descendents of Jacob in Egypt, even though he knew the Bible stated that the Jacobites, or Israelites, were in Egypt for 430 years.

Does that seem reasonable to you, Jason?

Don’t you think there could be another way to interpret “in the fourth generation”, without making that assumption?

And can’t you think of another way to do the math?

If we were to say that each father had a child every 3 years for 21 years, and that each of those children had 3 children for 21 years after the day they were born, we would come up with totally different numbers, wouldn’t we.

Care to do the math again?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight@Oct 19 2005, 05:11 PM

My Hebrew teacher told me this joke, and seeing as how lots of posts lately deal with how all or most of the Bible is just farce, I couldn't help but share it as I feel it is SOOOOOOO timely. :)

So a guy graduates from college with a degree in science. He scorns those with faith in God and believes only in empirical data. Well, one day he's walking through the park when he sees a young boy sitting on a bench. He's holding a Bible on his lap with one hand on it, and one hand in the air. He's shouting, "Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! Praise God!"

The graduate privately nurtures thoughts of embarassing all fools who believe in religion, and sees this as an excellent opportunity to set this kid straight and maybe save him from a lifetime of blind obedience to a myth. So he walks over and asks, "What's going on boy? Why are you saying that?"

The boy looks up with bright eyes and says, "Because I just read about how God parted the Red Sea for Moses and all Israel to pass through!" The graduate sighs, shakes his head and decides to exhibit his newly gained knowledge.

"Kid, scientists have narrowed down the time of when Moses lived based on descriptions of the Egyptian kingdom, history and pharaohship in the Bible. They've found that at that time period, the Red Sea at the place Moses claims he crossed was actually only three feet deep, and an easterly wind blowing at ten miles an hour was enough to move most of the water for them. So your miracle is really not that impressive at all."

The graduate smiles smugly as the kid lowers his head and hand and stares blankly at the Bible. As he's walking away, the graduate hears the boy start shouting again, "Hallelujah! Praise God! Praise the Lord!" Stomping back over to the bench, the graduate growls, "Why're you saying that stuff again? Didn't you hear what I said?"

The boy is smiling bigger than ever as he says, "Yep, I did. So I was really amazed when I read that God drowned the whole Egytian army with three feet of water!"

   

Any coin collectors out there? 'Cause you're welcome to keep my two cents if you want.   That's basically what I think about all the winds of doctrine and philosophies of men out there...God lives as does His Son Jesus, and they have or will make it possible for everyone to have the same chance to accept them and become the kind of beings they are with all happiness in the world!

Concerning those who accept them, I think it's safe to say, "and they all lived happily ever after." :) I do know most of us have plenty of chances to change and grow and that's an incredibly encouraging thing to me and my imperfect self!

←

I love that story.... LOL

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Oct 19 2005, 05:59 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Oct 19 2005, 06:30 PM

If you haven't read why the Exodus is beyond reasonable, then please read here.

←

You obviously missed the satirical tone of my post. I've heard a plethora of reasons why the Bible is not authentic or valuable as a source of faith. Please see here for my reaction:

http://www.sticks'n'stones.net/Idon'tCare.asp

For anyone who might miss the satirical tone of THIS post, please note that the URL above is not real, but rather, a medium of expressing one's opinion through absurdity. :)

One thing I will give you Jason, you have probably read more than most people I know, so props for that. I said most people, not all. I've been swimming laps in the (anti-mormon) lake of fire and brimstone for years and years and well, the heat doesn't really bother me that much. In fact, on particularly cold days when I'm bored, a jaunt through that magma-like cesspool of inaccuracies and absurdities can really brighten my day as I realize the weakness of the anti's position. Not that you're anti, or you're not anti, I'm just saying that alot of what you bring up beefs up my testimony when thoroughly studied (as Snow sagely observed). So thanks. :)

←

That is exactly how I feel about... the spiritually strong... just get stronger... and the spiritually weak are the only ones they are winning over... so what have they really gained?

[Jason]

Swimming in the pool of reason will endanger your mythical beliefs. Pure reason, as Kant explained, is arrived a priori, it is independent of experience.

And no Ray, you cannot redefine the meaning of words whenever they don't suit you.

And no Please, it is not just the spiritually weak being won over by a secular society. It is also the spirituall strong, who cannot bring themselves to accept a myth as their foundation.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 20 2005, 09:39 AM

Swimming in the pool of reason will endanger your mythical beliefs.  Pure reason, as Kant explained, is arrived a priori, it is independent of experience. 

And no Ray, you cannot redefine the meaning of words whenever they don't suit you. 

And no Please, it is not just the spiritually weak being won over by a secular society.  It is also the spirituall strong, who cannot bring themselves to accept a myth as their foundation.

←

And I should take this to be true because you.... who has been blown around by every wind of doctrine and phylosophy of men... says so? Come on Jason... you should know better than that...

[Ray]

You're "lost", Jason.

Let the Lord know when you sincerely want to know how to be "saved".

And btw, I don't "redefine" words. I sometimes specify exactly what I mean when I use certain words and I corroborate my definitions with the scriptures, a common dictionary, and a thesaurus.

And if you don't know the meaning of the words "lost" and "saved", I will be happy to specify exactly what I mean by saying what I said.

[Traveler]

As a scientist trained in math and physics and experience in automation and robotics with significant exposure to artificial intelligence – I find this thread fun and amusing but not particularly helpful and informative, except as it relates to individual expression of their beliefs. As a member of the LDS faith, taught in the rigors of ordinance and covenant with a devotion to truth I also feel that some serious considerations are being overlooked and discarded.

I will begin with an amusing story of a young boy on a Sunday afternoon having a discussion with his father, a devout member of faith. The father asks, “What did you learn today at Sunday School?”

Son: “We learned about Moses leaving Egypt with the Israelite hostages that he was attempting to free.”

Father: “This sounds interesting – why don’t you tell me about it?”

Son: “Well Moses had been negotiating with the Pharaoh for the release of all the Israelite hostages but the negotiations kept breaking down because the Pharaoh was not really willing to negotiate. Finely Moses gave an order to his secret commandos to kill an older child in all the families of the government officials, including the Pharaoh. This caused the Pharaoh to release the hostages but as they were leaving Egypt Pharaoh sent his entire army, tanks, infantry, artillery everything he had to destroy Moses and the hostages.

Moses discovered that the Egyptian army was coming with his aerial recognizance and ordered his commandos to set up an ambush at a narrow pass. There was this big firefight and the commandos fought hard but were badly out numbered. It was a bad situation because Moses and everybody else were trapped against the Red Sea. Moses sent orders to his commandos to hold as long as they could and had his combat engineers build a pontoon bridge across the Red Sea. After Moses got across with the hostages he sent word to his commandos to retreat across the bridge and set charges as they came.

When the commandos crossed the bridge the Egyptian army followed right behind and as soon as the commandos got across they blew up the bridge – the entire Egyptian army was stuck on the bridge when it blew and were all killed in the explosion or drowned. And that’s how Moses got the hostages out of Egypt.”

Father: “Wow that sounds exciting, but is that really what your teacher told you?”

Son: “Well, not exactly dad, but if I told it to you like he did, you would never believe it.”

One of the biggest problems in discussing religion is the assumptions that are assumed prior to the discussion. Jason, I am rather puzzled with you claim to intellectual high ground with disregard of experience – I would point out that such notions are contrary to scientific method which requires a rigorous duplication of all contributing factors to demonstrate the experience. It doesn’t look like to me that you have attempted the scientific method from your responses - seems to me to reek like of the methods of Aristotle and Plato that are as outdated as scripture, as far as pure access to discovery goes.

It is interesting to me that the lesson (especially the moral lesson) of Moses in Egypt seems to have been missed in this discussion.

The Traveler

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 20 2005, 10:31 AM

It is interesting to me that the lesson (especially the moral lesson) of Moses in Egypt seems to have been missed in this discussion.

The moral lesson of the exodus? Don't tick off Yahweh, or he'll kill your kids.

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 19 2005, 04:30 PM

The Grad student's not too bright. 

The math alone makes the whole Exodus story more incredible than pixie dust. 

If you haven't read why the Exodus is beyond reasonable, then please read here.

←

JASON, YOU THINK YOU'RE SOOOOOOO SMART! You ain't that smart, pal.

Do the math? I've done the math. How about YOU get an education! Here is a piece from my website:

The Exodus after Israel's sojourn in Egypt for 215 years. The figure found in Exodus 12:40,41 of "430 years" for Israel's sojourn in Egypt is a gross error made by priests at the council of Jamnia (near Joppa) who compiled the Masorete (Hebrew) text in AD 90. Their translation which has survived in our present KJV Bible must be rejected as corrupted text. The Septuagint and Samaritan translations as well as Josephus account that the 430 figure is the time span between Abraham first entering Canaan and Moses leaving Egypt. New Testament teachings (Gal 3:16,17; Acts 7:6) support the reality that the Exodus occurred 430 years after God covenanted with Abraham in the strange land of Canaan. The 430 year period may be broken down into two periods:

215 years (Abraham enters Canaan to Jacob enters Egypt)

+ 215 years (Jacob enters Egypt to Moses leaves Egypt)

= 430 years total

Further examination of the traditional belief that Israel was in bondage for a full 430 years will prove that this is indeed an error. First, the prophet Joseph Smith by revelation revealed that the mortality of the earth prior to the second coming of the Lord would last some 6,000 years (D&C 77) plus the grand millennium for a total of 7,000 years before the earth is glorified. If we in the year 2000 AD choose to deny the Septuagint & Samaritan translations and opt for the Masorete, we therefore nullify the revelation of Joseph Smith because 6,170 years would have already expired. We know by further revelation that the Lord will "cut the work short" and that he will not exceed the time appointed but will actually reduce the years of the wicked generation (D&C 52:11).

Another reason to reject the supposed 430 year Hebrew sojourn in Egypt is because the numbers don't reasonably add up. How can the four generations of Levi, Kohath, Amram, and Moses fit into a time span of 430 years? We learn in Ex 6:16-20 that Levi lived 137 years, Kohath lived 133 years, Amram lived 137 years, and Moses was 80 years old at the time of the Exodus. I have no problem believing the long life span of Moses' fathers, but the four generations just can't cover 430 years.

Let us assume for the sake of argument that a 430 year period of Hebrew bondage was true. The following scenario is about the only mathematical way to make it work, but the outcome is absolutely ludicrous! Joseph was 39 when his older brother Levi (3rd son of Jacob) came into Egypt. Let us assume that Levi was 57 when he and his family settled in Egypt to begin the 430 year countdown:

1 Levi at age 57 settles in Egypt

80 Levi at age 137 begat Kohath and died that same year

213 Kohath at age 133 begat Amram and died that same year

350 Amram at age 137 begat Moses and died that same year

430 Moses at age 80 leads Israel out of Egypt

Abracadabra! We now have 430 years in Egypt. But this is false!

Paul O

[Ray]

I think ApostleKnight's point in starting this thread was not so much to share the story of Moses, but to talk about how some people will simply not believe what someone tells them when they think they know better.

Or in other words, I think this thread was meant to contrast the so-called "wisdom of the world" against knowledge which can only be obtained through Faith.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Oct 20 2005, 12:17 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Oct 19 2005, 04:30 PM

The Grad student's not too bright. 

The math alone makes the whole Exodus story more incredible than pixie dust. 

If you haven't read why the Exodus is beyond reasonable, then please read here.

←

JASON, YOU THINK YOU'RE SOOOOOOO SMART! You ain't that smart, pal.

Do the math? I've done the math. How about YOU get an education! Here is a piece from my website:

The Exodus after Israel's sojourn in Egypt for 215 years. The figure found in Exodus 12:40,41 of "430 years" for Israel's sojourn in Egypt is a gross error made by priests at the council of Jamnia (near Joppa) who compiled the Masorete (Hebrew) text in AD 90. Their translation which has survived in our present KJV Bible must be rejected as corrupted text. The Septuagint and Samaritan translations as well as Josephus account that the 430 figure is the time span between Abraham first entering Canaan and Moses leaving Egypt. New Testament teachings (Gal 3:16,17; Acts 7:6) support the reality that the Exodus occurred 430 years after God covenanted with Abraham in the strange land of Canaan. The 430 year period may be broken down into two periods:

215 years (Abraham enters Canaan to Jacob enters Egypt)

+ 215 years (Jacob enters Egypt to Moses leaves Egypt)

= 430 years total

Further examination of the traditional belief that Israel was in bondage for a full 430 years will prove that this is indeed an error. First, the prophet Joseph Smith by revelation revealed that the mortality of the earth prior to the second coming of the Lord would last some 6,000 years (D&C 77) plus the grand millennium for a total of 7,000 years before the earth is glorified. If we in the year 2000 AD choose to deny the Septuagint & Samaritan translations and opt for the Masorete, we therefore nullify the revelation of Joseph Smith because 6,170 years would have already expired. We know by further revelation that the Lord will "cut the work short" and that he will not exceed the time appointed but will actually reduce the years of the wicked generation (D&C 52:11).

Another reason to reject the supposed 430 year Hebrew sojourn in Egypt is because the numbers don't reasonably add up. How can the four generations of Levi, Kohath, Amram, and Moses fit into a time span of 430 years? We learn in Ex 6:16-20 that Levi lived 137 years, Kohath lived 133 years, Amram lived 137 years, and Moses was 80 years old at the time of the Exodus. I have no problem believing the long life span of Moses' fathers, but the four generations just can't cover 430 years.

Let us assume for the sake of argument that a 430 year period of Hebrew bondage was true. The following scenario is about the only mathematical way to make it work, but the outcome is absolutely ludicrous! Joseph was 39 when his older brother Levi (3rd son of Jacob) came into Egypt. Let us assume that Levi was 57 when he and his family settled in Egypt to begin the 430 year countdown:

1 Levi at age 57 settles in Egypt

80 Levi at age 137 begat Kohath and died that same year

213 Kohath at age 133 begat Amram and died that same year

350 Amram at age 137 begat Moses and died that same year

430 Moses at age 80 leads Israel out of Egypt

Abracadabra! We now have 430 years in Egypt. But this is false!

Paul O

←

Im gonna try real hard to take you seriously Paul....but I must admit that it's pretty difficult.

First, please quote me the Josephus and LXX directly.

Second, please don't expect me to believe anything Smith has said. It's real easy to fix things in hindsight.

Thanks. [chuckle]

PS. Paul, would you like to account for the numbers of the Children of Israel who left Egypt in that 215 years. If there really were, as the Jewish Encyclopedia states, some 3,000,000 Israelites who left Egypt, then how his it possible that each of the 55 males of the first generation in Egypt had 80 children each, equally divided between males and females, and each successive generation down to the fourth generation in order to produce the 603,550 fighting men of 20 years old or older?

Thanks again.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 20 2005, 12:16 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 20 2005, 10:31 AM

It is interesting to me that the lesson (especially the moral lesson) of Moses in Egypt seems to have been missed in this discussion.

The moral lesson of the exodus? Don't tick off Yahweh, or he'll kill your kids.

←

NO NO NO! Didn't you notice that when Moses tried to do the job on his own... he freed NO ONE, killed only one Egyptian and was chased out of town...

But when he did it with the LORD... he was able to free everyone of the slaves...and left the place with all the plunder and loot...

The moral of the story.... work with God... don't lean on your own power...

[Jason]

Originally posted by Please+Oct 20 2005, 01:28 PM-->

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 20 2005, 12:16 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 20 2005, 10:31 AM

It is interesting to me that the lesson (especially the moral lesson) of Moses in Egypt seems to have been missed in this discussion.

The moral lesson of the exodus? Don't tick off Yahweh, or he'll kill your kids.

←

NO NO NO! Didn't you notice that when Moses tried to do the job on his own... he freed NO ONE, killed only one Egyptian and was chased out of town...

But when he did it with the LORD... he was able to free everyone of the slaves...and left the place with all the plunder and loot...

The moral of the story.... work with God... don't lean on your own power...

←

That's really funny.

So Moses (a murder) finds an obscure desert deity named Yahweh, who most conveniently likes to kill people too. They team up and start causing pain and suffering to the people of Egypt. Ultimately killing untold thousands of people all for the sake of taking the rightful property of the people of Egypt. And to add insult to injury, they pillage and plunder the Egyptians on their way out.

The Moral? Again, don't mess with Yahweh or you'll end up a dead man.

I think I just had yet another warm fuzzy testifying the truthfulness of this...

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 20 2005, 12:48 PM-->

Originally posted by Please@Oct 20 2005, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 20 2005, 12:16 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 20 2005, 10:31 AM

It is interesting to me that the lesson (especially the moral lesson) of Moses in Egypt seems to have been missed in this discussion.

The moral lesson of the exodus? Don't tick off Yahweh, or he'll kill your kids.

←

NO NO NO! Didn't you notice that when Moses tried to do the job on his own... he freed NO ONE, killed only one Egyptian and was chased out of town...

But when he did it with the LORD... he was able to free everyone of the slaves...and left the place with all the plunder and loot...

The moral of the story.... work with God... don't lean on your own power...

←

That's really funny.

So Moses (a murder) finds an obscure desert deity named Yahweh, who most conveniently likes to kill people too. They team up and start causing pain and suffering to the people of Egypt. Ultimately killing untold thousands of people all for the sake of taking the rightful property of the people of Egypt. And to add insult to injury, they pillage and plunder the Egyptians on their way out.

The Moral? Again, don't mess with Yahweh or you'll end up a dead man.

I think I just had yet another warm fuzzy testifying the truthfulness of this...

←

That's because that point is true too, Jason...

If you mess with God to the point of intentionally trying to kindle His anger against you, without repenting and seeking His forgiveness, you will end up dead, even though you will live to regret having upset Him.

Or in other words, God is our heavenly Father, and any child who intentionally abuses His love and patience is just asking for trouble.

[Serg]

If you mess with God to the point of intentionally trying to kindle His anger against you, without repenting and seeking His forgiveness, you will end up dead, even though you will live to regret having upset Him.

Or in other words, God is our heavenly Father, and any child who intentionally abuses His love and patience is just asking for trouble.

←

I agree, gotta love it!

THE HEAVENS; a SYSTEM that REALLY WORKS, finally! LOL

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 20 2005, 01:48 PM-->

Originally posted by Please@Oct 20 2005, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 20 2005, 12:16 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 20 2005, 10:31 AM

It is interesting to me that the lesson (especially the moral lesson) of Moses in Egypt seems to have been missed in this discussion.

The moral lesson of the exodus? Don't tick off Yahweh, or he'll kill your kids.

←

NO NO NO! Didn't you notice that when Moses tried to do the job on his own... he freed NO ONE, killed only one Egyptian and was chased out of town...

But when he did it with the LORD... he was able to free everyone of the slaves...and left the place with all the plunder and loot...

The moral of the story.... work with God... don't lean on your own power...

←

That's really funny.

So Moses (a murder) finds an obscure desert deity named Yahweh, who most conveniently likes to kill people too. They team up and start causing pain and suffering to the people of Egypt. Ultimately killing untold thousands of people all for the sake of taking the rightful property of the people of Egypt. And to add insult to injury, they pillage and plunder the Egyptians on their way out.

The Moral? Again, don't mess with Yahweh or you'll end up a dead man.

I think I just had yet another warm fuzzy testifying the truthfulness of this...

←

Well... I guess you are in support of enslaving people...for over 400 years... to build useless big buildings... killing millions..... as the Egyptians did...

Grief Jason... get your head on straight will ya?

[Jason]

You guys must be Aztec's reincarnated.

[Ray]

What do Aztecs have to do with this discussion???

I'm kinda thinking that you're thinking that Aztecs are the descendants of some Isralietes who migrated to the American continents, and the only way we could really know if the people or events described in the Book of Mormon really existed or happened would be if we had been there during the time those people lived or those events happened, and to that I would say that we didn't need to be there to know that those people existed or those events happened, because we are relying upon Faith, or an assurance from God, to know that those people existed and those events happened.

But we haven't been talking about the Book of Mormon, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 20 2005, 05:08 PM

What do Aztecs have to do with this discussion???

I'm kinda thinking that you're thinking that Aztecs are the descendants of some Isralietes who migrated to the American continents, and the only way we could really know if the people or events described in the Book of Mormon really existed or happened would be if we had been there during the time those people lived or those events happened, and to that I would say that we didn't need to be there to know that those people existed or those events happened, because we are relying upon Faith, or an assurance from God, to know that those people existed and those events happened.

But we haven't been talking about the Book of Mormon, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

←

I was thinking more along the lines of bloodthirsty.

[Ray]

Are you one of those people who believes there is NEVER a good reason for anybody to go to war?... to kill other people???

And btw, the God I worship is not bloodthirsty, despite what you may think, and I think if you understood how He thinks you would better understand why He thinks it's better for some people to die than to continue to live their lives on this Earth.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 20 2005, 06:12 PM

I was thinking more along the lines of bloodthirsty.

←

It's such a shame that you waste your intellect in such arguments Jason. It must be lonely in the ivory tower with no one good enough to visit unless they reject the wisdom, morals and principles of thousands of years' experience with God above. Give it a rest bro, why not apply that fifty-pound brain to building people up instead of spinning your tires in the mud. You're not getting anywhere, you have to know that. :) And yes, I welcome in advance your sarcastic, flippant, "devil-may-care" response which is just a veil for uncertainty and bitterness at past experiences and hopes unfulfilled. By all means, continue...