Proof That Moses Was A Sham!

[Guest ToasterOfen]

Jason, I wasn't telling you to "get lost" either. I think you have an interesting point of view (as well as you Tao) regardless of whether I agree or not. I just think we can stop all this "hissing" with a forked tongue. Ugh, I don't like snakes...So in our nicest tones of "voice", you keep calling us "deliusional" and we'll keep calling you "misguided", and we'll be happy and live happily ever after...

[Jason]

Originally posted by ToasterOfen@Oct 21 2005, 03:44 PM

Jason, I wasn't telling you to "get lost" either.  I think you have an interesting point of view (as well as you Tao) regardless of whether I agree or not.  I just think we can stop all this "hissing" with a forked tongue.  Ugh, I don't like snakes...So in our nicest tones of "voice", you keep calling us "deliusional" and we'll keep calling you "misguided", and we'll be happy and live happily ever after...

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Hey, you have every right to believe whatever you want to believe. I just get a little heated when people insist that their beliefs are "factual" or "historical" or "the one and only truth".

If you said to me: "Jason, I believe in Mormonism because I want to." I'd say, "hey, great for you." It's when people say: "Jason, Mormonism is the only true faith, and you cannot ever question that, because I can prove it's true..." then we have a problem.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

I agree that the "knowledge" of the "truth" thing can get annoying...but I am backing off this topic...its getting to be confrontational...

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 21 2005, 02:00 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-ToasterOfen@Oct 21 2005, 02:56 PM

I really don't want to get into a debate; I really am sick of them, and am not in the mood to get bashed.  But I just wanted to point out what I thought was a double standard.  Jason and Tao (no hard feelings) are telling all of us LDS folks how wrong and deluded we are; isn't that one of your problems with some of us? That we claim to "know" everything and that everyone else is wrong?  That is the same feeling and response that I am getting from you, that you are the experts, and the rest of us are all deluded.  (By the same token, I am not saying that the LDS are not without fault.)

I have many, many friends who do not beleive like I do: I have friends who are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, Christian...I have learned many things from all of them and my strength and faith has grown because of those associations.  So I am not saying that sharing differing opinions is wrong, but demeaning someone for what they beleive or say they know, is wrong, no matter who you are or what religion you practice.

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Well....not exactly. You see, Deists don't have any beliefs. We know that we don't know (because it's not possible), and we know that you don't know either.

That's the sum of the argument.

←

You know that I don't know what I know?

Heh, how could you know that, when you don't know anything?

And btw, I do know what I know, whether you know it or not.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Oct 21 2005, 02:29 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 21 2005, 01:43 PM

Repentance is still possible in the Spirit World, so No, God is not taking away any opportunity for them to Repent by sending them there.  As I said, He is simply sending them to another “room”, and they can Repent “there” as well as here.

Well, regardless of the doctrine, I still think killing entire cities full of people is extreme behavior...this genocide would include some innocents...I never heard of a city that was entirely evil, and there must have been innocent children (under 8) who were free of sin. That is poor behavior for Jesus, and even Heavenly Father.

Why cause the pain and suffering, even if it would end with them moving to "another room"?

If I did not consider this a fictional story, I would be very angry at this god.

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Any innocent person God could have killed by killing an entrire city didn't mind being killed because they went to live with their loved ones in a better place where the Satan and the idiots, um, I mean the wicked people, didn't live.

In the Spirit World, the wicked are separated from the righteous, except on the occasions where the righteous choose to go among the wicked to preach the gospel and try to help them out. And when the righteous come to the point where they see they can't help the wicked, they just leave. Sounds kinda nice if you ask me.... but again, I'm in no hurry to get there.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Actually, if you want to bring doctrine into it...maybe the wicked people would have a better chance of going to the CK after Jesus killed them all, because of Blood Atonement?

But putting doctrine aside, I just find the story creepy.

[Jason]

God thundering out of the sky before all the world and commanding the death of thousands is one thing.

Some bozo claiming to hear bushes talking is another story entirely.

[Ray]

FYI, wicked people have no real interest in the gospel, because they see it all as foolishness and just plain "creepy".

Or in other words, wicked people have no eyes to see or ears to hear the beauty contained in the gospel, because they are to the point where they are past the feeling given through the Spirit and power of God.

And btw, the term "wicked" generally refers to people who have heard the gospel, understood it, and then rejected it, usually in favor of some other ideas which they believe sound better.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 21 2005, 05:24 PM

FYI, wicked people have no real interest in the gospel, because they see it all as foolishness and just plain "creepy".

Or in other words, wicked people have no eyes to see or ears to hear the beauty contained in the gospel, because they are to the point where they are past the feeling given through the Spirit and power of God.

And btw, the term "wicked" generally refers to people who have heard the gospel, understood it, and then rejected it, usually in favor of some other ideas which they believe sound better.

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In that case, I'll proudly wear the label. B)

But to add to your definitions....righteous people are those who refuse to tolerate other views, and they usually end up finding ways to eliminate the wicked the old Irish way...

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 21 2005, 04:24 PM

And btw, the term "wicked" generally refers to people who have heard the gospel, understood it, and then rejected it, usually in favor of some other ideas which they believe sound better.

If by "wicked", you mean those who will go to Hell...I beg to differ...

I believe that IF THE LDS CHURCH IS TRUE, then one will only go to Hell if they have a genuine understanding of the gospel...which includes KNOWLEDGE that God exists, Jesus is his son, the doctrines are true, etc...Not just faith or belief...actual KNOWLEDGE (like you claim to have)...AND THEN REJECT GOD.

I never had such knowledge. Ever. I think I believed a few Christian doctrines when I was a kid because I was raised that way. But that was not knowledge...it was belief in what my parents taught me.

So I stopped believing, but then studied Christian and LDS doctrines so that I understood them. But I still never believed them...much less KNEW they were true.

So I can not be classified as wicked, even if I think the Bible and BoM have creepy stories. Because I never KNEW any of it to be true.

If I knew it was true, I would be an idiot to be an inactive LDS Church member. Who want's to go to hell? Not me!

No...I think people who actually KNOW the TRUTH, and turn against God are intentionally evil...they have decided to ally with SATAN, whom they KNOW exists.

People like me and Jason do not fit that description.

I suppose if the LDS Church is true, then I will get my chance to understand someday in the afterlife. I just hope that in the Spirit Prison, the teachings will be more clear. If I still don't understand, I guess I will go to the Terrestrial or Telestial kingdom...but according to the LDS Doctrine, I am safe from Hell. Because to reject God and Christ, one must KNOW they exist.

[Ray]

What you just said is pretty much true, Tao, but not quite. As long as you someday come to the point where you are willing to accept Jesus as your Savior and follow His guidance, He will not send you into outer darkness, unless you have done such vile things that He would be ashamed to claim you as being among His followers before our Father in heaven. Everyone else will be saved to some degree, but those who have heard the gospel message and rejected it in this life won’t be in the Celestial Kingdom.

Or in other words, if you want to go to the Celestial Kingdom, you’ll have to show that you are willing and able to live by Faith both in this life and the world to come, showing that the assurance of God is all you need to help you know the truth.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 21 2005, 05:50 PM

As long as you someday come to the point where you are willing to accept Jesus as your Savior and follow His guidance, He will not send you into outer darkness, unless you have done such vile things that He would be ashamed to claim you as being among His followers before our Father in heaven.  Everyone else will be saved to some degree, but those who have heard the gospel message and rejected it in this life won’t be in the Celestial Kingdom. 

Hope you don't mind me bolding your italics?

If that's the main criteria...looks like nobody will ever end up in outer darkness. Consider the example set by Yahweh....

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Setheus@Oct 21 2005, 12:15 PM

Wow, I can see it now...

Jesus: Give me back my toy

Satan: No loser, its mine.  You get EVERYTHING you want from Father anyways

Jesus: Ya, so give it back or I'll go tell on you...

This is OT but, for some reason this reminded me of the song Spanish Train by Chris de Burgh, here's some of the lyrics:

…"But I think I'll give you one more chance"

said the Devil with a smile,

"So throw away that stupid lance,

It's really not your style",

"Joker is the name, Poker is the game,

we'll play right here on this bed,

And then we'll bet for the biggest stakes yet,

the souls of the dead!!"…

…Well the railway man he cut the cards

And he dealt them each a hand of five,

And for the Lord he was praying hard

Or that train he'd have to drive...

Well the Devil he had three aces and a king,

And the Lord, he was running for a straight,

He had the queen and the knave and nine and ten of spades,

All he needed was the eight...

And then the Lord he called for one more card,

But he drew the diamond eight,

And the Devil said to the son of God,

"I believe you've got it straight,

So deal me one for the time has come

To see who'll be the king of this place,

But as he spoke, from beneath his cloak,

He slipped another ace...

Ten thousand souls was the opening bid,

And it soon went up to fifty-nine,

But the Lord didn't see what the Devil did,

And he said "that suits me fine",

"I'll raise you high to a hundred and five,

And forever put an end to your sins",

But the Devil let out a mighty shout, "My hand wins!!"

M.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Oct 21 2005, 06:35 PM

If I knew it was true, I would be an idiot to be an inactive LDS Church member.  Who want's to go to hell?  Not me!

←

True enough. I feel that I know certain things. If I am truly confident in that knowledge, then someone saying they KNOW an opposite reality is true shouldn't bother me. Only error and inaccurary need be enforced by the sword.

So what I'm saying is Jason, don't get heated up when Ray or I or anyone say we know the LDS church is the only church authorized by Christ to administer the ordinances of salvation (ordinances extended to everyone, it ain't no private club). By all means feel free to express your disagreement, but no one needs to get angry about it, me or Ray or you or anyone.

I'll admit when someone mocks or ridicules something I hold sacred then I do get angry, though I usually don't reach through the internet and punch someone. But someone like Tao or Jason saying they don't believe I know the things I claim I know doesn't cause me to lose a minute's sleep.

We're all entitled to think as we will, worship how, where or what we want...or worship the absence of worship if we will. As an earlier post pointed out, we should all extend to each other the same courtesy in our posts that we'd like someone to show to us.

Tao, you're great on that front. Thanks for disagreeing with tact. Alot of us can learn from his example. As I was taught on my LDS mission: "Be bold, not overbearing." And I might add to that: "Bring people to their senses, not their knees." That's all, thanks for reading everyone. :)

p.s. if #2 pencils are so great...why are they still #2? hahaha

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Oct 20 2005, 06:43 PM

Jason,

Go look up the references for youself. I'm not going to waste my time trying to convert you to anything. You're a lost cause. But others who read this thread need to know the other angle, but you are out of the loop.  Duhhhh

You want me to comment on how many Israelites came out of Egypt? Well, I know you don't believe everything you read, so don't put too much stock in those inflated numbers.

Paul O

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Now, Now Paul.... I've made it only this far in the thread and have to have my say now.

You know I look up to you, BUT Jason isn't "a lost cause" no one is. And those 3 little words cut into my heart. I'm sure that everyone on this board has had a time in thier lives when they searched for more than they had at hand. Some found the answers they were looking for, some are still looking. But that doesn't mean they are "a lost cause".

Don't you believe in "as far as it's translated correctly"?

Everyone doesn't have to translate the same thing....the same way.

I take a lot of things with a grain of salt, don't sweat the small stuff, kinda what Please had mentioned before.

According to some....being LDS is "a lost cause"

LOL.....story of my life.....I keep believing in what others consider lost causes.

Oh well!

I'm going to keep reading the thread now.......

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Setheus@Oct 21 2005, 12:15 PM

Wow, I can see it now...

Jesus: Give me back my toy

Satan: No loser, its mine.  You get EVERYTHING you want from Father anyways

Jesus: Ya, so give it back or I'll go tell on you...

For those of you who believe....you are sounding like whining babies

For those who dont believe.....you are sounding like whining babies

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ROFL.....Setheus..... I was thinking that same thing! LOL

Hey Ray...."You know that I don't know what I know?

Heh, how could you know that, when you don't know anything?

And btw, I do know what I know, whether you know it or not."

FUNNY! I like it!

TAO!

Long time no see....how you doing my friend?

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by Lindy+Oct 22 2005, 07:56 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Paul Osborne@Oct 20 2005, 06:43 PM

Jason,

Go look up the references for youself. I'm not going to waste my time trying to convert you to anything. You're a lost cause. But others who read this thread need to know the other angle, but you are out of the loop.  Duhhhh

You want me to comment on how many Israelites came out of Egypt? Well, I know you don't believe everything you read, so don't put too much stock in those inflated numbers.

Paul O

←

Now, Now Paul.... I've made it only this far in the thread and have to have my say now.

You know I look up to you, BUT Jason isn't "a lost cause" no one is. And those 3 little words cut into my heart. I'm sure that everyone on this board has had a time in thier lives when they searched for more than they had at hand. Some found the answers they were looking for, some are still looking. But that doesn't mean they are "a lost cause".

Don't you believe in "as far as it's translated correctly"?

Everyone doesn't have to translate the same thing....the same way.

I take a lot of things with a grain of salt, don't sweat the small stuff, kinda what Please had mentioned before.

According to some....being LDS is "a lost cause"

LOL.....story of my life.....I keep believing in what others consider lost causes.

Oh well!

I'm going to keep reading the thread now.......

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Well, I think most LDS will agree that Jason is lost and needs to be found - then we could all rejoice. I think also we could agree that his cause is not in the best interest of furthering God's work.

There, does that sound a little better?

Paul O

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Oct 22 2005, 08:46 AM

Well, I think most LDS will agree that Jason is lost and needs to be found - then we could all rejoice. I think also we could agree that his cause is not in the best interest of furthering God's work.

There, does that sound a little better? 

Paul O

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Weeeeellllll, I'm not like most LDS.......but it does sound a little better

Thanks Paul!

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Lindy@Oct 22 2005, 08:16 AM

TAO!

Long time no see....how you doing my friend?

I'm doing great! Just living my life.

I generally stopped obsessing over Church related things. That is...I don't talk about it all the time to my wife, or spend hours on these message boards. I've chosen my own level of participation, and am ok with it.

Unfortunately, visiting here can get me thinking too much...which gets me talking about my unpopular opinions on the bible...time for me to back off

But its nice to visit here now and then.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 21 2005, 05:14 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 21 2005, 05:50 PM

As long as you someday come to the point where you are willing to accept Jesus as your Savior and follow His guidance, He will not send you into outer darkness, unless you have done such vile things that He would be ashamed to claim you as being among His followers before our Father in heaven.  Everyone else will be saved to some degree, but those who have heard the gospel message and rejected it in this life won’t be in the Celestial Kingdom. 

Hope you don't mind me bolding your italics?

If that's the main criteria...looks like nobody will ever end up in outer darkness. Consider the example set by Yahweh....

←

An inaccurate understanding of a person doesn’t make that person the kind of person someone inaccurately understands them to be, and I’ll be among the first to let you know that you don’t accurately understand my God, aka Yahweh, aka Jehovah, aka Yeshua, aka Joshua, aka Jesus… no matter how much you may think you do understand Him correctly.

And if you’re thinking about coming back with a response to indicate that you believe I am wrong, please indicate that you understand the fact that I have already said the same thing to you so I will know that you understand what I have said and won’t feel the need to keep repeating myself in other words in an attempt to help you understand me.

And btw, Jesus has said that He will judge us according to the way we have judged others, and I seriously doubt that you would want to be judged by the way you have judged Him.

[Fiannan]

Brigham Young also did not exist - scientists will prove that 1000 years from now. The parallels to Moses make sch an individual an impossible myth created in frontier times.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray+Oct 24 2005, 05:01 PM-->

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 21 2005, 05:14 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 21 2005, 05:50 PM

As long as you someday come to the point where you are willing to accept Jesus as your Savior and follow His guidance, He will not send you into outer darkness, unless you have done such vile things that He would be ashamed to claim you as being among His followers before our Father in heaven.  Everyone else will be saved to some degree, but those who have heard the gospel message and rejected it in this life won’t be in the Celestial Kingdom. 

Hope you don't mind me bolding your italics?

If that's the main criteria...looks like nobody will ever end up in outer darkness. Consider the example set by Yahweh....

←

An inaccurate understanding of a person doesn’t make that person the kind of person someone inaccurately understands them to be, and I’ll be among the first to let you know that you don’t accurately understand my God, aka Yahweh, aka Jehovah, aka Yeshua, aka Joshua, aka Jesus… no matter how much you may think you do understand Him correctly.

Then you're understanding is skewed, Ray. I accept as literal the actions and deeds of Yahweh as recorded in the Old Testament. Those actions and deeds are contemptable and unexcusable. If you choose to pretend that those words and deeds are incorrect as written, that's your decision. But doing so only proves my point that the actions of the god of the old testament are so heinous, that even a believer like yourself must try and find excuses for his behavior.

As for me, rather than demean my own intellect, I choose not to produce excuses for this god, and simply state without question that this being is neither a god nor my god.

Amen!

[Jason]

Originally posted by Fiannan@Oct 25 2005, 11:51 PM

Brigham Young also did not exist - scientists will prove that 1000 years from now.  The parallels to Moses make sch an individual an impossible myth created in frontier times.

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Only if we lose his body, tear down his house, and burn his articles of clothing,etc.

And by the way, this is a stupid comparison. Brigham Young was a mere mortal man who did absolutely nothing of a miraculous nature. He caused no plague on the US. Did not turn the Mississippi into blood. He neither spoiled nor plundered a major American city. He did not part a Sea nor cause it to drown an American army.

He was a nobody who did nothing out of the ordinary. Even the Pilgrims underwent greater hardships than the Mormons of the day.

Next?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 26 2005, 08:10 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Fiannan@Oct 25 2005, 11:51 PM

Brigham Young also did not exist - scientists will prove that 1000 years from now.  The parallels to Moses make sch an individual an impossible myth created in frontier times.

←

Only if we lose his body, tear down his house, and burn his articles of clothing,etc.

And by the way, this is a stupid comparison. Brigham Young was a mere mortal man who did absolutely nothing of a miraculous nature. He caused no plague on the US. Did not turn the Mississippi into blood. He neither spoiled nor plundered a major American city. He did not part a Sea nor cause it to drown an American army.

He was a nobody who did nothing out of the ordinary. Even the Pilgrims underwent greater hardships than the Mormons of the day.

Next?

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You think you have done such a good job here? HA! How do you burn testimonies from the Holy Ghost? Next?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 26 2005, 08:05 AM-->

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 24 2005, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 21 2005, 05:14 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 21 2005, 05:50 PM

As long as you someday come to the point where you are willing to accept Jesus as your Savior and follow His guidance, He will not send you into outer darkness, unless you have done such vile things that He would be ashamed to claim you as being among His followers before our Father in heaven.  Everyone else will be saved to some degree, but those who have heard the gospel message and rejected it in this life won’t be in the Celestial Kingdom. 

Hope you don't mind me bolding your italics?

If that's the main criteria...looks like nobody will ever end up in outer darkness. Consider the example set by Yahweh....

←

An inaccurate understanding of a person doesn’t make that person the kind of person someone inaccurately understands them to be, and I’ll be among the first to let you know that you don’t accurately understand my God, aka Yahweh, aka Jehovah, aka Yeshua, aka Joshua, aka Jesus… no matter how much you may think you do understand Him correctly.

Then you're understanding is skewed, Ray. I accept as literal the actions and deeds of Yahweh as recorded in the Old Testament. Those actions and deeds are contemptable and unexcusable. If you choose to pretend that those words and deeds are incorrect as written, that's your decision. But doing so only proves my point that the actions of the god of the old testament are so heinous, that even a believer like yourself must try and find excuses for his behavior.

As for me, rather than demean my own intellect, I choose not to produce excuses for this god, and simply state without question that this being is neither a god nor my god.

Amen!

←

You are in the BofM Jason... infact most of what you do was written about 2000 years ago....

and all brought forth in the BofM... so that we would know what to expect from people in our day and not be bothered by it... knowing in the end... you will be brought before that God you deny and have to make an accounting...

Did you want me to put up the scriptures?