Jesus in the Garden

[Vanhin]

Lattelady,

I think it's pretty plain at this point. Pam's scripture above is the answer to your question.

D&C 19:16-19

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

In other words, Christ suffered so that those who repent would not suffer, which suffering cause him to bleed at every pore. That was part of the atonement. He bled at every pore in the Garden of Gethsemane.

That's where we get it.

However, the atonement didn't begin and end there. It began in the garden, continued to the cross, and culminated in the resurrection. We call that entire experience, from beginning to end, the Atonement of the Jesus Christ.

A very important part of atonement for sin occurred on the cross. Christ, experienced spiritual death, when the Father withdrew His presence from him for a brief moment, while he hung on the cross. (Matt. 27:46)

Regards,

Vanhin

[lattelady]

Vanhin,

Thanks for your post.

Unfortunately, it's not plain, and the D&C scripture is not the answer to my question. Pam has actually mentioned in an earlier post that she, herself, has searched for more information on the subject and has come up empty. Others have also stated that scripture that speaks to this teaching is "thin". And I understand that. Still others have said that it is the teaching of Prophets and Apostles that have given the Church its understanding on this doctrine. These verses on their own do not definitively support what you are saying--that Jesus atoned for sin in the Garden. Prophets' and Apostles' teachings seem to, on their own, support the teaching. Which is why I finally asked who was the first prophet to reveal this teaching. Was it Joseph Smith, then?

[pam]

Was it Joseph Smith, then?

I honestly don't understand why the insistence on knowing which of our Prophets first taught this. If I said yes, it is my personal opinion, that Joseph Smith is the first Prophet to teach this..what would your response be? Do you believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God? If not..then I don't understand the relevance.

[Kishkumen_Called]

Hey y'all,

Does anyone have a Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith or History of the Church? I suspect that either of these would show that Joseph Smith was the first to expound that the Atonement started in the Garden and was not isolated to the Cross. My guess, anyways. It certainly doesn't show up on lds.org.

Folks, what lattelady is looking for is a scriptural or doctrinally-based reference that states something to the effect:

Jesus' suffering started in Gethsemane. Prophet ____, reference.

What is being presented in these posts is inferrential and based on a prior modern revelation. Lattelady is just looking for the first time it was stated. No need to get tchy because you're talking past her; she's honestly seeking an answer of our doctrine.

Cheers

[pam]

Sorry Kishkumen..you are new and totally unfamiliar with the tactics that are being used now and have been used in the past by this poster. This is not the first time this has happened. Using the guise of learning only to continue to debate when answers are given.

[lattelady]

I'm trying to find the origin of the teaching. That's all. I'm not really interested in personal opinion, rather, the origin of the teaching. If D&C 19 is it, and then Prophets and Apostles have merely expounded on those verses then so beit. But because D&C 19 is not a clear teaching on atonement for sin, I was hoping for more.

The LDS church has truths in addition to what "mainline Christianity" holds to. Mainline Christianity would say that the atonement for sin was done entirely on the cross. So, it would seem that the Garden atonement is an additional truth that the LDS church has, because of revelation to one of its prophets. That is why I was looking for which prophet the revelation came through.

[lattelady]

Pam, why is someone that is wanting a question answered with factual proof accused of using "tactics"? Wouldn't you ask the same thing of someone who brought something before you that you didn't understand or didn't agree with?

[Flyonthewall]

I know you may be looking for a scripture that explicitly states that it is the garden where Christ atoned for the sins of the world, and D&C 19 is it. D&C 19 stands on its own: the suffering in the garden is what Christ endured so that we do not have to if we repent. This is paying the price of sin, taking upon Him the sins of the world.

The cross was the public event that most people focus on, but the garden was a private event that Jesus endured. It is no accident or incidental event that is included in the Bible. Look at each of the accounts in the Bible. We mortals can relate to physical pain, which Christ endured, but very few of us can really relate to the depth of spiritual agony that ocurred in the garden.

It is here, in the garden that He was in agony, even after an angel came to strengthen Him, so much so, that He sweat great drops of blood, AND wanted not to have to drink of the bitter cup. The agony in the garden caused God, the greatest of all to tremble and want an easier way, this is what no other human could have done. His blood was shed in the garden, but not by another, but was freely given by Himself.

This is what gave meaning to His death on the cross. As others have stated, crucifixion was not unique to Jesus, many others died on the cross. Jesus was the only one to have taken the sins of the world upon Himself, suffered so that we don't have to. It is on the cross that He laid down His life. It is from the tomb that He was resurrected.

[Vanhin]

Vanhin,

Thanks for your post.

Unfortunately, it's not plain, and the D&C scripture is not the answer to my question. Pam has actually mentioned in an earlier post that she, herself, has searched for more information on the subject and has come up empty. Others have also stated that scripture that speaks to this teaching is "thin". And I understand that. Still others have said that it is the teaching of Prophets and Apostles that have given the Church its understanding on this doctrine. These verses on their own do not definitively support what you are saying--that Jesus atoned for sin in the Garden. Prophets' and Apostles' teachings seem to, on their own, support the teaching. Which is why I finally asked who was the first prophet to reveal this teaching. Was it Joseph Smith, then?

Actually it is pretty plain in that D&C scripture. Where did Christ bleed from every pore?

The Garden of Gethsemane.

What will happen to those who do not repent?

They will suffer as Christ did, which he suffering according to that D&C verse caused him to bleed from every pore.

It cannot get any plainer than that. Now whether you choose to see it or not is entirely up to you.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Hey y'all,

Does anyone have a Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith or History of the Church? I suspect that either of these would show that Joseph Smith was the first to expound that the Atonement started in the Garden and was not isolated to the Cross. My guess, anyways. It certainly doesn't show up on lds.org.

Folks, what lattelady is looking for is a scriptural or doctrinally-based reference that states something to the effect: What is being presented in these posts is inferrential and based on a prior modern revelation. Lattelady is just looking for the first time it was stated. No need to get tchy because you're talking past her; she's honestly seeking an answer of our doctrine.

Cheers

D&C 19:16-19

Vanhin

[OneEternalSonata]

lattlelady, while the verses cited may not convince you that Gethsemane is integral to the Atonement, it does convince those who cite them, myself included. In reading over these posts I see the answer does not agree with your own beliefs. In all honesty, we believe many prophets, even before the Restoration, testified and believed Gethsemane and the Cross were part and parcel to the Atonement. We do not have all true prophecies ever uttered in our canon, but I believe father Adam had a revelation concerning the garden, the cross and the resurrection. Furthermore, when the Gospel was set forth during the Council in Heaven I believe Gethsemane was just as much part of the plan. I realize you want scriptural sources to back up my claims, but the Holy Spirit testifies of these truths to me. There is no scripture that clearly shows who was the first prophet to teach this.

Edited November 29, 2009 by OneEternalSonata

[Vanhin]

Also in Alma:

Now Aaron began to open the scriptures unto them concerning the coming of Christ, and also concerning the resurrection of the dead, and that there could be no redemption for mankind save it were through the death and sufferings of Christ, and the atonement of his blood. (Alma 21:9)

Where did Christ make an atonement of his blood? In Gethsemane.

When we partake of the second half of the sacrament, we do it in remembrance of his blood, which was shed for us. Where did he shed his blood? In Gethsemane.

It's plain as day.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Kishkumen_Called]

D&C 19:16-19

Vanhin

I disagree. The notion that this occurred in Gethsemane is inferrential, based on knowledge found elsewhere. I'm not disputing that this doesn't refer to Gethsemane - it does. My point is that it's not explicitly stated (for lattelady's sake).

Cheers

[Vanhin]

I disagree. The notion that this occurred in Gethsemane is inferrential, based on knowledge found elsewhere. I'm not disputing that this doesn't refer to Gethsemane - it does. My point is that it's not explicitly stated (for lattelady's sake).

Cheers

It is a logical inference, that can be demonstrated to be true. Where else do the scriptures say that Christ bled from every pore? Nowhere.

So there you have it. Gethsemane it is.

Regards,

Vanhin

[OneEternalSonata]

Accidental double post

Edited November 29, 2009 by OneEternalSonata

[lattelady]

Vanhin,

Christ BLED on the cross as well. So, it is not a LOGICAL inference. It might be logical to you, because you believe it to be so. It can't be demonstrated from scripture to be true. I was reading the verses in the Gospel of Luke today that speak of Jesus in the Garden and they don't say that He bled from every pore. They say that his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. It doesn't mention "every pore". Scriptures DON'T say that Christ bled from every pore to ATONE for our sin. You certainly can't make that claim. You can believe it, if you want to, but it isn't a logical inference, demonstrated to be true.

Edited November 29, 2009 by lattelady

[pam]

79 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

This is one of the sacrament prayers that we give when blessing the water. You will notice that it says "in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them.

Now looking at what the word "shed" means.

1. To cause to pour forth: shed tears.

2. To diffuse or radiate; send forth or impart: shed light.

3. To repel without allowing penetration: A duck's feathers shed water.

4. a. To lose by natural process: a snake shedding its skin.

b. To rid oneself of (something not wanted or needed):

Notice is says without allowing penetration which is what the nails to his hands and feet would have been. Shed would be like tears..we know that blood came from every pore.

This in no way takes away from the agony he suffered on the cross nor of his life being taken from him..but I do still believe that when he "shed" his blood in Gethsemane, he did it to take on all our sins.

Edited November 29, 2009 by pam

[Vanhin]

Vanhin,

Christ BLED on the cross as well. So, it is not a LOGICAL inference. It might be logical to you, because you believe it to be so. It can't be demonstrated from scripture to be true. Yes, scriptures say that Christ bled from every pore. I understand that. I don't dispute that. Scriptures DON'T say that Christ bled from every pore to ATONE for our sin.

According to LDS scripture already cited, Christ did bleed from every pore to atone for our sins. That is what it means to "[suffer] these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;"

For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink— Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

You certainly can't make that claim. You can believe it, if you want to, but it isn't a logical inference, demonstrated to be true.

Oh yes it is. Since the reference we provided states specifically that Christ suffered for our sins so that we would not have to suffer if we repent, and that that suffering caused him to bleed at every pore, then it follows that the suffering occurred in Gethsemane; which is the only place provided in all the scriptures, where Christ bled from every pore.

In order for you to demonstrate it to be false, you have to provide another place besides Gethsemane, where Christ bled from every pore. Which you cannot, because it does not exist.

Regards,

Vanhin

[lattelady]

Vanhin, what do you make of scriptures that say Christ was crucified FOR OUR SINS?

[Flyonthewall]

I think Vanhin layed it out nicely, but if you will, let's look at the passage again:

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

This is Jesus stating, that for those to do not repent, their suffering will be beyond our comprehension...

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

Then He states that He has already suffered these things so those who repent do not have to...

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

Those who do not repent will have to suffer as Jesus suffered. Jesus then describes that suffering...

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

This is the suffering He took upon Himself so that we would not have to if we repent. Where did this suffering take place? Littlelady, where does the bible state that the kind of suffering that is described here took place? The garden. Gethsemane. The "oil press". No where else, including on the cross, did Jesus blead from every pore, and "would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink".

What do you call it when Jesus states that He suffered that we may not have to if we repent? Is this not paying the price of sin? Is this not atoning for sin?

You have asked where in the scriptures teach that it was the garden that the payment of sin was made, and we have showed you. To us it is plain. You may not share the same point of view on this and that is okay. You asked, we showed. You did not ask to convince you of it, that must come from within yourself. In the mean time, can you not see why D&C 19 is the origin of this teaching?

You have asked who the first prophet was to teach this, and we have answered - The revelation came through Joseph Smith so Joseph Smith was the first one in these latter days.

[lattelady]

It certainly could also be a logical inference that Jesus, when He spoke of "suffering", was referring to the suffering of the cross that He was about to endure. The coming suffering upon the cross caused Him to tremble and "bleed at every pore." He was saying that He was enduring the suffering of the cross (that would affect him body and spirit) so that we would never have to taste eternal death. But if we would not repent, we would have to experience death.

[pam]

Now you are grasping at straws.

[Vanhin]

Vanhin, what do you make of scriptures that say Christ was crucified FOR OUR SINS?

Exactly what I explained earlier. The atonement began in the garden of Gethsemane, continued to the cross, where Christ suffered some more. There the Father withdrew His presence from Him, so that Christ could experience Spiritual death, which is something up to this point He had not suffered, being Holy and without sin. Once He had suffered for our sins, and experiences spiritual death, He gave up the ghost, and suffered physical death. Three days later, He was risen, and completed the atonement with a glorious resurrection. We call all of this "The Atonement of Jesus Christ", and through this atonement, Christ overcame the bonds of both sin and death.

The cross and the crucifixion was an important and pivotal point in the Atonement, from both a doctrinal perspective and from a prophetic perspective, but the bulk of His suffering for our sins occurred in Gethsemane, where he bled from every pore. this according to the latter-day scriptures we have provided.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Flyonthewall]

Vanhin, what do you make of scriptures that say Christ was crucified FOR OUR SINS?

This too is accurate. His crucifixion was part of the atonement. It is sin that separates us from God. Paying the price for sin, laying down His life, and resurrection were all required to put us "at one" with God again.

Remember that the cross was a public event, the garden was not.

[lattelady]

Too accurate? I understand that the cross was a public event. Scripture records both public and private events. Not much said about the garden...

Oh, Flyonthewall, I was going to tell you that my name is Lattelady, not Littlelady. :) But Littlelady is cute. I like it.