Tithing? Business Or Personal

[LehiMan]

I have a question about the law of tithing. Does a person who owns a business pay tithing on what the business made or how much he paid himself from the business? If so for either, is it net or gross?

I know this may sound like a dumb question, but I ask with all purpose of heart.

Thanks.

[Serg]

Well, my opinion would be that he should pay from the whole income it gets him. Not only from his "salary"if he even works there, but from ALL that is LEFT for him. Not from all what he pays to the employees for that would be unfair, but from the whole quantity from which he profits.

Best regards,

[Ray]

Originally posted by LehiMan@Oct 27 2005, 04:26 AM

I have a question about the law of tithing. Does a person who owns a business pay tithing on what the business made or how much he paid himself from the business? If so for either, is it net or gross?

I know this may sound like a dumb question, but I ask with all purpose of heart.

Thanks.

←

This is one of those questions that I can only answer by saying what I would do, without saying that what I would do is what you should do, necessarily.

Got that?

Okay, if it were me, or if I had a business that made money, I would only pay tithing on the money and other benefits that I personally received or enjoyed from that business.

Or in other words, if my business made a certain amount of profit during a given period, and all of that profit was re-invested in the business, for business expenses or whatever, I would not feel any obligation to pay tithing on any of that profit, unless I somehow personally benefited from that money or benefit.

For instance, if the profit paid for a company car, defined as a car to be used only for company business, and I used that car for my own personal benefit, I would pay tithing on the money used to buy that car, because it would no longer be a company benefit. It would simply be a personal benefit that I was able to get through the company.

Or in other words, I would treat my company as a separate person, and I would not pay tithing on any money or benefit that I gave to that person, unless I managed to use some of that money or benefits for my personal benefit, in which case I would pay tithing on the money or benefit I used.

And as I said, that's just me.

[Guest ToasterOfen]

My thought would be...whatever personal gaines you get; so along the same lines of what Ray and Serg said.

Your next question was whether to pay on net or gross...gross being before taxes. I have heard this said many times, and this is what we follow: Do you want "gross" blessings or "net" blessings. Yes, we have to pay taxes, and it stinks, but we are blessed when we pay on the full amount we earn. I don't want to get blessings just on the amount I bring home after taxes, because I worked hard and sacrificed for all of that money...I want to get ALL of the blessings afforded to me based on the entire amount.

That's my opinion, others may have a difference of opinion, but it has worked for my family.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by LehiMan@Oct 27 2005, 06:26 AM

I have a question about the law of tithing. Does a person who owns a business pay tithing on what the business made or how much he paid himself from the business? If so for either, is it net or gross?

←

LehiMan, Hello. I actually run my own graphic design/videography business in WA state. When I get paid for designing real estate ads or making corporate videos for businesses in the area, I pay tithing on EVERYTHING that isn't taxed.

The principle in tithing is to be tithed on our INCREASE. Personally, whether I invest my profits into getting that $20,000 Broadcast video camera or buying new computer equipment for video editing/design, I'd pay tithing on it. For me, whenever I have a dollar in my hand that I SPEND in any way, I pay tithing on it.

When in doubt, we won't get punished for tithing too much. :) In essence, I tithe on net, not gross.

[BenRaines]

Business owner and tithing. This is the question as it is asked when you go to tithing settlement. "Do you pay a full tithe?" Not how much do you pay. Is it gross or net, etc.

To use ApostleKnight's example. Products to make your business more successful would be considered part of the cost of doing business and inventory. What he paid for it so that his business would be more successful and he would make more money would not be tithed but the money he made from greater productivity would be. When the equiptment is sold if he made money over what he paid for equiptment would be tithed.

Another example: I buy a common stock at $10 a share and buy 1,000 shares. A year later I sell the stock for $20 a share. Gross gain is $10,000. Commission to trade the shares is $10 for each trade. Net gain is $9,980 dollars. That is my tithable amount. I do not pay tithe on the $20,000 that I sold the stock for since it cost me $10,000.

That is how a business should look at it.

I agree with the person that posted that tithing is paid on income before personal taxes, employee benefits, etc. If you did it after you could argue that you would pay them on what was left after all expenses since taxes, employee benefits etc are expenses.

[StrawberryFields]

I have a friend who owns his own business which is very successful, One day I asked him why he was so successful in his business. The answer he gave me was that he was never really sure how much money to tithe so he tithed 10% of how much he wanted to be making and he increased that amount each year.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Oct 27 2005, 06:06 PM

To use ApostleKnight's example.  Products to make your business more successful would be considered part of the cost of doing business and inventory.  What he paid for it so that his business would be more successful and he would make more money would not be tithed but the money he made from greater productivity would be.

←

I disagree, personally. Whenever I have money in my hand/account that is up to me to spend (i.e. it's post-tax or what I actually have control of) I tithe on it, regardless of whether I plug it back into my business. You see, it was INCREASE that I didn't have before, and I don't think the Lord is interested in how much money I spend on personal, non-business stuff, but rather, how much money is MINE regardless of what I spend it on. :)

[Ray]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight@Oct 27 2005, 03:53 PM

When in doubt, we won't get punished for tithing too much. :)  In essence, I tithe on net, not gross.

I pay on gross, not net, so irrespective of how much money that is, in principle, I pay more tithes than you do and I'm sure I'm not being punished. :)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 27 2005, 06:41 PM

I pay on gross, not net, so irrespective of how much money that is, in principle, I pay more tithes than you do and I'm sure I'm not being punished.  :)

←

Wouldn't know. :)

[Ray]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Oct 27 2005, 04:41 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-BenRaines@Oct 27 2005, 06:06 PM

To use ApostleKnight's example.  Products to make your business more successful would be considered part of the cost of doing business and inventory.  What he paid for it so that his business would be more successful and he would make more money would not be tithed but the money he made from greater productivity would be.

←

I disagree, personally. Whenever I have money in my hand/account that is up to me to spend (i.e. it's post-tax or what I actually have control of) I tithe on it, regardless of whether I plug it back into my business. You see, it was INCREASE that I didn't have before, and I don't think the Lord is interested in how much money I spend on personal, non-business stuff, but rather, how much money is MINE regardless of what I spend it on. :)

←

I wouldn't consider that business to be yours, if I were you, and instead would merely consider myself to be a steward of that business.

[BenRaines]

ApostleKnight,

That is the great thing about the Law of Tithing it is each individuals decision and I applaud you on how you live it.

Another example. I have worked hard and earned money to buy a building with money that I have tithed on. Building is to store inventory for my business. Ten years later I sell my business. I make money on the sale of the building. Do you tithe the sale price of the building or the sale price after taking out the money you already tithed on when you purchased the building?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Oct 27 2005, 06:45 PM

ApostleKnight, 

That is the great thing about the Law of Tithing it is each individuals decision and I applaud you on how you live it.

Thanks, and likewise.

Do you tithe the sale price of the building or the sale price after taking out the money you already tithed on when you purchased the building?

←

I would tithe on the sale price of the building. Why? Because the money I earned to buy the building was an increase. Owning the building was an increase. And money from selling the building is an increase. As you said, it's a personal decision.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 27 2005, 06:44 PM

I wouldn't consider that business to be yours, if I were you, and instead would merely consider myself to be a steward of that business.

←

Where did that come from? And how do you know I don't?

[BenRaines]

ApostleKnight, I hope you understand that I am not arguing with you but just working out the mechanics of this with you. I think you have it right in that it is better to over tithe than to under tithe in any case.

My thought would be that if you tithed on the money that you bought the building with then you would tithe on the increase of that money at the sale of the building but not tithe again on money that you had tithed on before buying the building. That would be double tithing. I am sure you would be blessed for it but the Lord does not ask for us to do more than he asks he only asks us to do what is asked.

Ben

[Guest ToasterOfen]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Oct 27 2005, 05:19 PM

My thought would be that if you tithed on the money that you bought the building with then you would tithe on the increase of that money at the sale of the building but not tithe again on money that you had tithed on before buying the building.  That would be double tithing. 

←

That's a tongue twister...

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by BenRaines@Oct 27 2005, 05:19 PM

My thought would be that if you tithed on the money that you bought the building with then you would tithe on the increase of that money at the sale of the building but not tithe again on money that you had tithed on before buying the building.  That would be double tithing. 

←

I'm sure I could still keep my temple recommend. :) I appreciate your concern, but I'm aware of the math and I guess it's just the way I feel comfortable showing gratitude for my blessings. I no doubt fall short in other areas, and I'm just careful to remind myself and him of the blessings I'm grateful for. Not saying anyone else has to, but I'm sure you're not trying to convince me to pay less tithing.

[Amphiblitz]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight@Oct 27 2005, 05:43 PM

[...]I'm sure you're not trying to convince me to pay less tithing.

Well, technically speaking, nobody can pay too much or too little "tithing", since "tithing" is defined as 1/10 of one's income/increase. Only that amount is "tithing". Anything extra is technically just additional donations that may have been misallocated in the "tithing" category of the donation slip. But technically, it is not tithing. Only tithing is tithing.

Is that a tongue twister, ToasterOfen?

[Guest ToasterOfen]

Originally posted by Amphiblitz@Oct 27 2005, 06:39 PM[/quote

Well, technically speaking, nobody can pay too much or too little "tithing", since "tithing" is defined as 1/10 of one's income/increase.  Only that amount is "tithing".  Anything extra is technically just additional donations that may have been misallocated in the "tithing" category of the donation slip.  But technically, it is not tithing.  Only tithing is tithing.

Is that a tongue twister, ToasterOfen?

←

Pretty darn close! All the tithes, and tithing thing...tith,th,th,th,th...I'm going to have a lisp LOL

[Ray]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Oct 27 2005, 05:11 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 27 2005, 06:44 PM

I wouldn't consider that business to be yours, if I were you, and instead would merely consider myself to be a steward of that business.

←

Where did that come from? And how do you know I don't?

←

Sorry, I guess that was a little unclear.

You said something before about how you pay tithing on the money your business makes, as if it was your money, or as if the business was an actual extention of yourself, and I meant that if I were you, I would consider that business to be another person whom you merely have stewardship over, instead of a part of you.

Or in other words, if I were you, I would consider my business to be my employer, and I wouldn't pay tithing on the money my business earned any more than I pay tithing on what my employer earns, except for the money or interest I receive from what my employer gives me.

And btw, I'm not saying that you are wrong in doing what you are doing. I'm just sharing my thoughts about what you are doing, by saying what I would do in your situation, just in case you might be interested in knowing my thoughts.

[BenRaines]

ApostleKnight,

You are right that I would not try to convince anyone to pay less. As some said later in the post tithing above tithing is a donation but my favorite thought on it all is in the words of King Benjamin. If we could all feel as King Benjamin did then the world would be a better place.

For those of you here who do not believe in King Benjamin or Book of Mormon that is your choice and lets leave it at that. What I say regarding this is for those who have ears to hear. Again my opinion and to me my opinion counts. May not to many others but to me it does. :)

[Ray]

If what I have said has been construed as an effort to talk someone into paying less money in tithing, I'd also like them to understand that I am not among those who believe we should give all the money we have to give to the tithing fund.

Or in other words, a tithe refers to a specific amount of money, or 10% of our increase, and anything over that amount paid to the tithing fund might be better given to another cause, or fund, such as the Fast Offering fund, Humanitarian Aid fund, Missionary funds, Perpetual Education fund, and some other fund which is associated with charitable giving.

And btw, I give my charitable donations to the Church, because I would rather support the Lord's work rather than the work of men.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 28 2005, 03:21 PM

Or in other words, a tithe refers to a specific amount of money, or 10% of our increase,

←

We just disagree on what "increase" means. To me, it means any money I didn't have before that is in my control, that I can spend, whether on my business or my DVD collection. I'm not sure how you define increase, but it doesn't seem to be the same, and I'm still kinda' mystified about the "treat your business as a separate person" comment. Legally a business is a separate person (corporations) but I run a sole proprietorship. And even the most separate person-like businesses can't pay tithing on their own...people have to.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Nov 2 2005, 05:32 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 28 2005, 03:21 PM

Or in other words, a tithe refers to a specific amount of money, or 10% of our increase,

←

We just disagree on what "increase" means. To me, it means any money I didn't have before that is in my control, that I can spend, whether on my business or my DVD collection. I'm not sure how you define increase, but it doesn't seem to be the same, and I'm still kinda' mystified about the "treat your business as a separate person" comment. Legally a business is a separate person (corporations) but I run a sole proprietorship. And even the most separate person-like businesses can't pay tithing on their own...people have to.

←

Yet in Mosiah 4**

24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.

25 And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are acondemned•; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.

Where would this put tithing?

[Ray]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Nov 2 2005, 04:32 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 28 2005, 03:21 PM

Or in other words, a tithe refers to a specific amount of money, or 10% of our increase,

←

We just disagree on what "increase" means. To me, it means any money I didn't have before that is in my control, that I can spend, whether on my business or my DVD collection. I'm not sure how you define increase, but it doesn't seem to be the same, and I'm still kinda' mystified about the "treat your business as a separate person" comment. Legally a business is a separate person (corporations) but I run a sole proprietorship. And even the most separate person-like businesses can't pay tithing on their own...people have to.

←

Do you expect a person with a job to pay tithes on what their employer earns?

I imagine not.

Well, I don't expect a person who owns a business to pay tithes on what the business earns either, except for the money or other increase the business owner receives from that business, considering the "business" to be their employer.

But Yes, I believe we should all pay tithes on the increase we receive, whether from our business, or our employer, or from whatever, and if a person who owns a business sells that business, I would expect the former business owner to pay a tithe on whatever they receive from that business, just as anyother person would pay tithes on what another "person" gave them.

Or in other words, let's call a business by the name of "Bob" for a moment.

Would you pay tithes on any increase "Bob" earns? I expect not... not even if "Bob" was your son, as long as Bob earned that money himself.

But if "Bob" gave you some money, or anything else from which you would personally benefit, as an increase to what you had before you received [whatever] from "Bob", I would expect you to pay tithes on what you considered to be your increase, regardless of who gave it to you.

And if "Bob" buys a computer, and you don't receive a personal increase from that computer except for when you work for "Bob", I would consider that to be a "company" increase and not a "personal" increase for which you should pay tithes.

Or in other words, I wouldn't expect a business owner to pay tithes on money used to pay for a computer or new office furniture for the business they worked for, any more than I would expect an employee of a business to pay tithes on the money used to buy those things, because I consider a business owner to be another person who works for a business.

But if "Bob" dies and gives you all his money, Yes, I would expect you to pay tithes on all of that increase.

And btw, this is still just my opinion about what I would do, and I only directed my comments at you personally because somehow that seemed easier.