Tithing? Business Or Personal

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 2 2005, 07:46 PM

Do you expect a person with a job to pay tithes on what their employer earns?

I imagine not.

Horrible comparison.

And if "Bob" buys a computer, and you don't receive a personal increase from that computer except for when you work for "Bob", I would consider that to be a "company" increase and not a "personal" increase for which you should pay tithes.

It's that "except for when you work for Bob" comment that concerns me. You basically seem to be qualifying increase, classifying increase, creating different types of increase.

But I believe that increase is increase, whether in a business setting or personal setting. My business is not a person, it does not work, I work. My business is nothing more than a "Doing Business As" paper license in the WA state archives. It cannot increase, it cannot own property (remember, I don't run a corporation, which can legally...but then I don't think the Lord had business law in mind when he revealed the law of tithing).

I believe the principle in tithing is to tithe on increase, period. I don't think the Lord is like the IRS..."Hmmm, LeGrand, I see you didn't tithe on that $300 you made for doing that corporate video. What's that? Oh, you used it to buy better camera equipment so you could make more money? Why didn't you say so? That's definitely not the kind of increase I'm worried about. I only care about money that goes into your bank account or wallet."

Just doesn't make sense to me. Yes, I understand what you're saying, and even why you're saying it. It just doesn't cut it for me. Hope this discussion doesn't come across personal Ray, I enjoy this dialogue and understanding different viewpoints is something I like.

[Ray]

Perhaps I should simply tell you what I think from my perspective and then ask you some questions, since I'm really not trying to teach you to believe what I believe about this.

The question at hand concerns what money should be tithed, and to arrive at the answer I think we are trying to define what is meant by “increase”, to which I have replied by saying that I do not consider the increase of the business for which I work to be included as the increase for which I should pay tithing.

In my situation, I have a job. I work to increase productivity and profits in the business for which I work, and I get paid for my efforts. I think business owners pretty much do the same thing, the only real difference being that a business owner has more control over the goals of that business, as well as more control over how much they get paid for their efforts.

Going further, I do not consider a business owner to be responsible for paying tithing on the increase of the business for which he works, except for the increase the business personally provides for him, just as I do not consider an employee of a business to be responsible for paying tithing on the increase of the business for which he works, except for the increase the business personally provides for him.

For an example, I offered the following:

When the business for which I work receives enough profit to pay for a new computer or office furniture in my office, I do not pay tithing on the profit of that business that has been allocated for my use, because I do not consider that increase to be for my “personal” use, even though I am allowed to use it in the performance of my duties for the business. I do, however, pay tithing on the profit the business receives which has been allocated for my paycheck, because I do consider that profit to be for my “personal” use.

Or in other words, I separate the increase I receive from a “business” by whether or not I use that increase for my “personal” use, or for my “business” use, and I only pay tithing on the increase I receive for my “personal” use.

Okay, now that I have pretty much explained my perspective, I’ll ask you some questions.

Do you believe a person should pay tithing on the increase of the business for which they work?

(And btw, if you’re going to respond again by saying that you think it’s a horrible example, I’d really like to know why you think it is a horrible example, because it seems like a perfect example to me.)

Second question:

What makes a business owner responsible for the payment of tithing on the increase of the business for which they work?

(And btw, I’m looking for an answer other than “It’s what I do”, so if you do it, I’d like to understand why)

Third:

Do you honestly believe a person should pay tithing on every increase they receive?

For example:

The increase of children to their family?

The increase their children receive?

The air they breathe?

Okay, that’s it. And btw, I really don’t have a problem with the fact that you pay tithing on [whatever] you pay tithing on. I’m simply trying to understand your reasoning.

Oh, and one more thing. I pay tithing on my "net" paycheck because I consider the benefits I receive from being a citizen of the United States and the state in which I live as part of my "personal" increase.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 3 2005, 02:18 PM

Do you believe a person should pay tithing on the increase of the business for which they work?

If they OWN the business, yes! I don't work for my business Dreamscope. I OWN it. It works for me. I work, yes, I work hard when I am doing graphic design or corporate video. But I'm working FOR MYSELF, not my business. That's the definition of self-employment. Of course I wouldn't pay tithing on the quarterly increase of Staples if I worked for them...but if I OWNED Staples, you'd better believe I would, even if some of that increase was spent buying inventory.

What makes a business owner responsible for the payment of tithing on the increase of the business for which they work?

(And btw, I’m looking for an answer other than “It’s what I do”, so if you do it, I’d like to understand why)

Again with "the business for which they work." It's simply not the same Ray. If I'm an employee of a business that's one thing. If I OWN a business that's another. Legally, I'm not an "employee" of Dreamscope, my business. I'm its OWNER. I pay taxes because the profit I make goes to ME, not some employee. I pay tithing, therefore, because the money goes to ME, not some employee. It goes directly to me. I work for me, my business works for me, I have control over it all, there is no middle-man, even in legal contemplation, so any increase is MINE, since the business is MINE. :)

Do you honestly believe a person should pay tithing on every increase they receive?

For example:

The increase of children to their family?

The increase their children receive?

The air they breathe?

Didn't you know you're supposed to hold your breath a second for every ten seconds of air you breathe? And give one child away for every ten you have? And 10% of those kids' allowance?

C'mon Ray, that's totally absurd. I'm talking about capital gain in a business setting, and I've never said otherwise. I've said any increase in BUSINESS, not any increase period. Let's not get sidetracked with useless questions.

Okay, that’s it.  And btw, I really don’t have a problem with the fact that you pay tithing on [whatever]  you pay tithing on.  I’m simply trying to understand your reasoning.

Hopefully you do. Maybe try starting a business, and see if you consider yourself working for a piece of paper in a state archive. Maybe you'd come to see yourself working for yourself, since you OWN the company you "work for." So it's simply not correct to consider my business a separate person, because I own the business, it's mine, and I work for me, and no one else. That means I pay tithing on all capital increase I receive as a result of my business (read: my hard work).

Seems you're confusing tithing application with business deduction law in business. If I make $400 for doing a corporate video for a local business, but spend $200 on better lighting equipment for my next gig, then I'm only taxed on the $200 profit that I made on the job. As far as tithing goes, at one time I will have all $400 in my possession, so I'll pay $40 tithing. If I still spend $200 on lighting equipment, that's my call. But my base increase was $400, so my tithe will reflect that. It's not like tallying up business deductibles.

[Ray]

Again with "the business for which they work." It's simply not the same Ray. If I'm an employee of a business that's one thing. If I OWN a business that's another. Legally, I'm not an "employee" of Dreamscope, my business. I'm its OWNER.

I pay taxes because the profit I make goes to ME, not some employee. I pay tithing, therefore, because the money goes to ME, not some employee. It goes directly to me. I work for me, my business works for me, I have control over it all, there is no middle-man, even in legal contemplation, so any increase is MINE, since the business is MINE.

I’ll put it this way. If I owned a business, or if I was a business “owner”, I would ALSO pay tithes on all the increase that went to ME, and would ALSO consider that to be MINE, because that would all be for my PERSONAL use. But I would not pay tithes on money that did not go to ME, because I would not consider that money to be MINE.

And btw, I don’t really myself to be an OWNER of anything, in the sense of my relationship with God. I am merely a steward of all that comes to ME.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 3 2005, 03:46 PM

I’ll put it this way.  If I owned a business, or if I was a business “owner”, I would ALSO pay tithes on all the increase that went to ME, and would ALSO consider that to be MINE, because that would all be for my PERSONAL use.  But I would not pay tithes on money that did not go to ME, because I would not consider that money to be MINE.

That's fine. But most business owners, Ray, intend on using their business for their personal use, i.e. their business exists to provide them with profit, hence it is a personal use down the road. Of course the law doesn't work that way, and that's nice because business deductions are very welcome. But to honestly say that you run a business for the sake of running a business and not for personal reasons is rather irrational to me. But maybe it's just me. Who knows.

And btw, I don’t really myself to be an OWNER of anything, in the sense of my relationship with God.  I am merely a steward of all that comes to ME.

←

Oh geez Ray, c'mon bud. :) It was the Lord who said we should tithe on OUR increase. Is it our increase really? Nope, it's God's. But in the context of stewards, it's our increase since its our stewardship. So yep, I'm the proud owner of my business and lots of other material things too. :) Stewardship rocks!

[Ray]

Btw, some more questions:

Are checks from customers/ clients written to YOU, or to a business account, in the name of the business?

If written to ME, I would consider that money to be mine, but if written to the business, I would consider myself simply as a steward over that business.

But again, that's just me, because you seem to have a different idea of what it means to be a business OWNER.

[Ray]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Nov 3 2005, 01:55 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Nov 3 2005, 03:46 PM

I’ll put it this way.  If I owned a business, or if I was a business “owner”, I would ALSO pay tithes on all the increase that went to ME, and would ALSO consider that to be MINE, because that would all be for my PERSONAL use.  But I would not pay tithes on money that did not go to ME, because I would not consider that money to be MINE.

That's fine. But most business owners, Ray, intend on using their business for their personal use, i.e. their business exists to provide them with profit, hence it is a personal use down the road. Of course the law doesn't work that way, and that's nice because business deductions are very welcome. But to honestly say that you run a business for the sake of running a business and not for personal reasons is rather irrational to me. But maybe it's just me. Who knows.

I was saying that I would only pay tithes on the income that came to ME, when it came to ME, whether immediately or "down the road".

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 3 2005, 03:57 PM

Are checks from customers/ clients written to YOU, or to a business account, in the name of the business?

If written to ME, I would consider that money to be mine, but if written to the business, I would consider myself simply as a steward over that business.

But again, that's just me, because you seem to have a different idea of what it means to be a business OWNER.

←

Let's just leave it at this Ray:

We should never, EVER, ever start an LLP together!

And by the way, would it kill ya to write by the way instead of btw? j/k

[Ray]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Nov 3 2005, 02:01 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Nov 3 2005, 03:57 PM

Are checks from customers/ clients written to YOU, or to a business account, in the name of the business?

If written to ME, I would consider that money to be mine, but if written to the business, I would consider myself simply as a steward over that business.

But again, that's just me, because you seem to have a different idea of what it means to be a business OWNER.

←

Let's just leave it at this Ray:

We should never, EVER, ever start an LLP together!

And by the way, would it kill ya to write by the way instead of btw? j/k

←

Heh, I would probably agree with you about that.

And btw, what's the deal with asking me to stop using abbreviations when you use them yourself? - j/k :)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 3 2005, 04:04 PM

And btw, what's the deal with asking me to stop using abbreviations when you use them yourself?  - j/k  :)

←

To be technical, btw is an acronym, not an abbreviation. And acronyms, IMHO, are only used by morons, LOL. Dangit, there I go again, using acronyms!

[Ray]

I testify that I know btw is an acronym, and I thank you for that reminder, because I knew it before and had simply forgotten.

I disagree that a use of acronyms signify a lesser degree of intelligence, however, and will continue to do so at leisure.

:)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 3 2005, 05:13 PM

I disagree that a use of acronyms signify a lesser degree of intelligence, however, and will continue to do so at leisure.

←

I think you missed my sarcasm...in saying acronyms are used by morons, I used two acronyms myself (IHMO and LOL), so I was making fun of myself, not you.

[Ray]

Originally posted by ApostleKnight+Nov 3 2005, 03:21 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Nov 3 2005, 05:13 PM

I disagree that a use of acronyms signify a lesser degree of intelligence, however, and will continue to do so at leisure.

←

I think you missed my sarcasm...in saying acronyms are used by morons, I used two acronyms myself (IHMO and LOL), so I was making fun of myself, not you.

←

I didn't "miss" it. I simply do not agree that you're a moron, nor do I agree with your the reasoning or evidence you used to justify your opinion.

Btw, many people are more intelligent than you may believe.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 3 2005, 05:26 PM

I didn't "miss" it.  I simply do not agree that you're a moron, nor do I agree with your the reasoning or evidence you used to justify your opinion.

Btw, many people are more intelligent than you may believe. 

←

*LeGrand stares blankly at his laptop*

[Ray]

Heh, I simply confront sarcasm by showing how wrong it is. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by LehiMan@Oct 27 2005, 04:26 AM

I have a question about the law of tithing. Does a person who owns a business pay tithing on what the business made or how much he paid himself from the business? If so for either, is it net or gross?

I know this may sound like a dumb question, but I ask with all purpose of heart.

Thanks.

←

My answer is based upon my common understanding of what is taught in evangelical churches. The original concept was to give our "first fruits" (in contrast to left overs) to God. Cain and Abel gave sacrifices, Abram gave 10% of what he had to the priest he met while traveling. So, in general we tithe on the gross, not the net. However, for business owners, the obligation, personally, would be to tithe on one's income, or salary. I suppose, the business entity could designate 10% of profits for a tithe as well. Additionally, the first 10% of one's income is given to the church's general fund. Special offerings for missions, appeals, etc. should be given in addition to the tithe, not in place of it.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Prisonchaplain : Special offerings for missions, appeals, etc. should be given in addition to the tithe, not in place of it.

appeals? we don't have that one on the tithing slip... do we?

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by Please@Nov 6 2005, 08:25 PM

Prisonchaplain : Special offerings for missions, appeals, etc. should be given in addition to the tithe, not in place of it.

appeals? we don't have that one on the tithing slip... do we?

←

Sure...it falls under "other."

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain+Nov 7 2005, 06:58 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Nov 6 2005, 08:25 PM

Prisonchaplain : Special offerings for missions, appeals, etc. should be given in addition to the tithe, not in place of it.

appeals? we don't have that one on the tithing slip... do we?

←

Sure...it falls under "other."

←

LOL should have got that one!!