What "blessings" Come From Tithing

[Ray]

Originally posted by bizabra+Nov 1 2005, 12:54 PM-->

Originally posted by Please@Nov 1 2005, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by shanstress70@Nov 1 2005, 06:10 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 31 2005, 07:22 PM

Jason,

If there is ever a day of judgment, we will all know whether or not the official doctrine of the Church is true, and if we all find out it is, I'm curious to know what would you say to our Father in heaven about why you chose not to believe it.

And if we all find out it is not, I'm curious to know what you would say to our Father in heaven about what you chose to believe all the extraneous stuff, consider a mere fictional book to be scripture, and a mere man to be a prophet.

Every argument can go both ways, Ray.

←

I would ask why he appeared to me and told me otherwise... and why my mother and the mother of my sister's came to me and told me otherwise... and then I would ask him why the stars were doing their thing in such a strange way and why those guys in white shiny suites appeared in my room with their notebook.... and why he was soooooo deceptive!!!!!!

←

BIZ: The most logical answer to what you experienced is that you were hallucinating. You WANTED to have the experiences you had so badly, that your own mind MADE IT UP!

←

A person can use reasoning and logic to believe just about anything, yet still never be able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

[Jason]

I used an "if" argument only because I was trying to not offend Jason [or you or anyone else] with my testimony again. I already know what God has said to me.

Thank you ray.

And btw, I advise you, Jason, and you, Shanstress, to say something more like: "because you never told me",

Ok everyone, let's get down to the nitty-gritty. Let's look carefully at what Ray has stated:

...although I imagine our heavenly Father will respond by saying something like:"Yes, I did. I personally inspired and authorized a lot of people to tell you the truth concerning the official doctrine of the Church, while also telling those people to tell you that you should personally Ask Me if you have trouble understanding it.

Have I ever prayed to know if Mormonism was true? Yes. Have I ever received an answer to said prayer? Yes. Was said pray answered in the affirative that the LDS church was true? Yes.

And, Jason, I merely asked why you chose not to believe it, to get you to realize that you did have the opportunity to know the truth and accept it.

So why did I turn my back on said revelation? Because the teachers of Mormonism told me I'd feel a "warmth" or a "clarity of thought" as an answer from God.

I don't believe the Creator works in such ways. I believe that these experiences are self-produced.

But what about other testimonies? Have you ever heard the voice of the Father come into your mind speaking as one man does with another? Yes.

But as much as I believed that this was not from my own mind, I am quite confident that it did come from my own mind, as it does from anyone who makes such a claim. The power of the Brain is hardly understood by science, so why should I doubt it's power to deceive the ego?

Have you received any further testimonies? Yes. Have you ever seen an Angel of light? Yes. Have you ever seen an Angel of Darkness?

But you still reject Mormonism? Yes. I cannot Reasonably say that said testimonies were not created by my own will. Therefore I cannot reasonably

I don't believe that the teachers of Mormonism have any clue how the Creator truly communicates. I believe that any rational person left to their own design would never consider warm fuzzies, strange shadows, or night-time visions as manifestations of the Creator. Much less an alternate voice in your head.

That's why.

But let's get down to business now, shall we? You knew enough to know the difference between good and evil through reason alone, and you are now here to be judged for your actions."

Well then, I have nothing to worry about.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 1 2005, 01:59 PM-->

Originally posted by bizabra@Nov 1 2005, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by Please@Nov 1 2005, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by shanstress70@Nov 1 2005, 06:10 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 31 2005, 07:22 PM

Jason,

If there is ever a day of judgment, we will all know whether or not the official doctrine of the Church is true, and if we all find out it is, I'm curious to know what would you say to our Father in heaven about why you chose not to believe it.

And if we all find out it is not, I'm curious to know what you would say to our Father in heaven about what you chose to believe all the extraneous stuff, consider a mere fictional book to be scripture, and a mere man to be a prophet.

Every argument can go both ways, Ray.

←

I would ask why he appeared to me and told me otherwise... and why my mother and the mother of my sister's came to me and told me otherwise... and then I would ask him why the stars were doing their thing in such a strange way and why those guys in white shiny suites appeared in my room with their notebook.... and why he was soooooo deceptive!!!!!!

←

BIZ: The most logical answer to what you experienced is that you were hallucinating. You WANTED to have the experiences you had so badly, that your own mind MADE IT UP!

←

A person can use reasoning and logic to believe just about anything, yet still never be able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

←

Believing you have the truth does not make it so.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Jason : Believing you have the truth does not make it so.

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!! Are you listening?

[Ray]

Jason,

What you say to others is included among the things you do, as well as what you believe or choose not to believe. Or in other words, every choice you have ever made and every choice that you continue to make will be included among the things you will be judged for, and the only way to be forgiven for any wrong you have ever done to yourself or somebody else is through Jesus Christ, whom you have slandered and misrepresented to high heaven.

And btw, if you reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you will suffer for every "bad" thing you have ever done, with no way to escape, because Jesus Christ offers the only way to be forgiven.

And btw, the ideas I have just presented are included among the official doctrines of the Church, and in fact, they are the highlight of our doctrine, which you have plainly rejected, as judged from your own words.

[Guest bizabra]

So, "blessings" from tithe paying are to be expected in heaven and not on this earth? Good things coincidentally are experienced by non-tithers and tithers alike? Tithing to THE CHURCH's true function is as an "obedience test" (much like the current interpretation of the WofW, eh?) and not an action one does in order to glean personal earth-based "blessings"? Giving $ to a religious organization in order to build and maintain temples is a better use of personal funds than directly giving to individuals in need? Temple work is more important than direct charity? Receiving personal financial "blessings" is NOT one of the blessings one gets from paying tithing, no matter the many "faith building" stories that one hears?

Hmmmm

Guess one should pay tithing in order to have temples built and to gain extra blessings when dead, and NOT in order to receive "financial blessings" as many believe. Or am I getting this all wrong?

Seems like enumerating specific personal earth based blessings from paying tithing is not actually possible, eh? Unless one counts the generic group blessing of having temples for temple work.

If this is the case, then no-one should claim to recieve financial "blessings" due to paying their tithing. Just limit their claims to banking up blessings in the after-life. Don'tcha think?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by bizabra@Nov 1 2005, 02:13 PM

So, "blessings" from tithe paying are to be expected in heaven and not on this earth?  Good things coincidentally are experienced by non-tithers and tithers alike?  Tithing to THE CHURCH's true function is as an "obedience test" (much like the current interpretation of the WofW, eh?) and not an action one does in order to glean personal earth-based "blessings"? Giving $ to a religious organization in order to build and maintain temples is a better use of personal funds than directly giving to individuals in need?  Temple work is more important than direct charity? Receiving personal financial "blessings" is NOT one of the blessings one gets from paying tithing, no matter the many "faith building" stories that one hears? 

Hmmmm

Guess one should pay tithing in order to have temples built and to gain extra blessings when dead, and NOT in order to receive "financial blessings" as many believe.  Or am I getting this all wrong?

Seems like enumerating specific personal earth based blessings from paying tithing is not actually possible, eh?  Unless one counts the generic group blessing of having temples for temple work. 

If this is the case, then no-one should claim to recieve financial "blessings" due to paying their tithing.  Just limit their claims to banking up blessings in the after-life.  Don'tcha think?

←

It can be all of the kinds of blessings you mentioned... including financial... but it doesn't mean it will happen that way for everyone...

Some are just being tested more... for greater blessing later... The soldier who dies in defense of his country... certainly doesn't partake of any of the blessings he sacrificed his life for... yet he will receive it here after...

But we here... maybe giving of our time and money to support troups through donations of phones, or water or other things they have need of... will actually receive the blessing of our freedom being preserved.... and some will just sit on their arse and do nothing and still receive the blessing brought about by someone else's sacrifice... but if no one sacrificed... no one would be blessed... either...

So... just because the soldier didn't get the blessing here... (and some might come home and do that exact thing...) should he not be a soldier anyway if that is the way he feels he is to give?

Tithing is like those soldiers' sacrifice.... some get the benefit now and here... other's won't because they die or suffer alittle longer and will receive it on the other side...

Question: How does one differentiate between blessing and everyday receiving of sun and rain?

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 1 2005, 02:08 PM

Jason,

What you say to others is included among the things you do, as well as what you believe or choose not to believe.  Or in other words, every choice you have ever made and every choice that you continue to make will be included among the things you will be judged for, and the only way to be forgiven for any wrong you have ever done to yourself or somebody else is through Jesus Christ, whom you have slandered and misrepresented to high heaven.

And btw, if you reject Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you will suffer for every "bad" thing you have ever done, with no way to escape,  because Jesus Christ offers the only way to be forgiven.

And btw, the ideas I have just presented are included among the official doctrines of the Church, and in fact, they are the highlight of our doctrine, which you have plainly rejected, as judged from your own words.

←

See that's exactly why I reject Jesus Christ and any other foolishness of a sacrifical nature. Killing someone to atone for someone else is unjust. Can you imagine a society where they convict someone of murder, then execute someone else in their stead? Would you support such a society?

It is not different here. I cannot support the idea of allowing (much less needing) someone else to be punished in my place. If your god is so dumb that he created man to sin, giving him contradictory commands so that he has no choice but to sin, then I cannot and will not respect your god.

Let me ask you a question Ray. Can a Comet sin? Let's say that it's shooting through space, just as it should, and it slams into a moon or planet. Has it sinned?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason@Nov 1 2005, 01:36 PM

Let me ask you a question Ray.  Can a Comet sin?  Let's say that it's shooting through space, just as it should, and it slams into a moon or planet.  Has it sinned?

Uh, No.

And to save a little time, I'll define "sin" as willfully choosing to do something contrary to the will of God.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray+Nov 1 2005, 02:41 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Nov 1 2005, 01:36 PM

Let me ask you a question Ray.  Can a Comet sin?  Let's say that it's shooting through space, just as it should, and it slams into a moon or planet.  Has it sinned?

Uh, No.

Just as it had no choice in the matter, neither does man. God created us as we are, therefore it is not possible to sin. Nothing, not murder, rape, homosexualilty, theft, nothing is a sin. Just as you cannot blame a wolf for killing a sheep, you cannot blame a man for killing another. It is our nature. We were created like this. That's it.

And to save a little time, I'll define "sin" as willfully choosing to do something contrary to the will of God.

←

Well, since it is not possible to be perfect according to your god, he has set you up for failure. No wonder you think you need Jesus.

Sounds like you need to find a better god. Im sure that there's a used god lot somewhere where you can trade in your lemon and get a better god.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason+Nov 1 2005, 01:58 PM-->

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 1 2005, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by Jason@Nov 1 2005, 01:36 PM

Let me ask you a question Ray.  Can a Comet sin?  Let's say that it's shooting through space, just as it should, and it slams into a moon or planet.  Has it sinned?

Uh, No.

Just as it had no choice in the matter, neither does man. God created us as we are, therefore it is not possible to sin. Nothing, not murder, rape, homosexualilty, theft, nothing is a sin. Just as you cannot blame a wolf for killing a sheep, you cannot blame a man for killing another. It is our nature. We were created like this. That's it.

No, that's not it, and I know you know better.

But to help someone else reading this thread who may not know better, I'll go on to say that we always have a choice whether to do good or whether to do evil, and it is only when we choose to do evil that we do something contrary to the will or nature of God.

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 1 2005, 02:41 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Nov 1 2005, 01:36 PM

And to save a little time, I'll define "sin" as willfully choosing to do something contrary to the will of God.

Well, since it is not possible to be perfect according to your god, he has set you up for failure. No wonder you think you need Jesus.

Heh, Jason, I know you know better than this too. Why are you playing dumb?

It is possible to be perfect according to our God, and the way to do that is by following the will of God until His will becomes our will, and our nature. Hence, we need someone to help us know the will of God, and that someone is Jesus because He knows God better than any of us and He is willing to help us know Him.

But act now! This is a limited offer and will expire soon!

[dizzysmiles]

shantress if it isnt real you wont be having to tell anyone cause if you claim its not real then there wouldnb't be a heavenly father now would there?

[dizzysmiles]

shantress when joseph smith did temple work they did endowments up stairs in a log cabin, that was before they had temples.

[dizzysmiles]

Jason you once said you read the scriptures and knew it was true, so you canot say you hadn't. Shantress the book of mormon as you call it is a fake? If you really want to find out i challenge you to read it and ask a higher being if it is true by the end of the year without reading anything anti along with it. AS far as sin. are you saying that the man that killed my grandma in cold blood did not know it was wrong? as for Jesus christ he loved you so much jason he came and not only atoned for your sins but he died so you can repent here on this earth, int he next its pretty much up to us, and he loved u so much he would come do it for only YOU becasue he loves you and wants you to come back to Heavenly father, he is the only begoten of the father that is why he loved you and died for you, I would die for someone I loved in a heartbeat no matter what they did, isnt there times when yous ee your child sick and you wish you could take that pain away? the Lord did, and for you to not accept it isnt fair to him dont you think? One day when you see the gloriified christ and he opens his loving arms to you, he will still love you no matter what you did, but we have to have agency and he can't make you do something . therefore its up to us to take his name upon us.

[Jason]

Originally posted by dizzysmiles@Nov 1 2005, 03:41 PM

Jason you once said you read the scriptures and knew it was true, so you canot say you hadn't.

Apparently you aren't reading the thread in open forums? I've admitted that I had a witness of the truthfulness of the book of Mormon. The same witness that has converted hundreds of thousands of people, and keeps millions more in the LDS fold.

But I reject this witness as a false witness. I do not believe that the Creator of the world offers any witness other than the creation itself. Period. And let me tell you honey, I've had much more than the proverbial warm fuzzy to testify of Mormonism. I've seen angels, demons, heard the very voice of Jehovah himself trumphet aloud. And all these things I wholly, completely, and unquestionably deny as bogus, illusionary gimmicks produced from my very own mind and will.

  AS far as sin. are you saying that the man that killed my grandma in cold blood did not know it was wrong?

Im saying that there is no such thing as right and wrong. It's all the invention of one's culture. Im also saying that there's no such thing as an absolute truth when discussing morals. And Im saying that it's not possible to prove otherwise.

...as for Jesus christ he loved you so much jason he came and not only atoned for your sins but he died so you can repent here on this earth, int he next its pretty much up to us, and he loved u so much he would come do it for only YOU becasue he loves you and wants you to come back to Heavenly father, he is the only begoten of the father that is why he loved you and died for you...

Blah, blah, blah, blah. That was a great big pile of horse crap. The whole thing is a fabrication, and you're so gulliable that you believe it. Well honey, Im not that dumb anymore. It's time to grow up sweetie.

I would die for someone I loved in a heartbeat no matter what they did, isnt there times when yous ee your child sick and you wish you could take that pain away?

Sure, but that has nothing to do with your imaginary god and his oh-so-miraculous child.

the Lord did, and for you to not accept it isnt fair to him dont you think? 

Asking me to believe in a mythical character and subject myself to his imaginary law is a bit naive, don't you think?

One day when you see the gloriified christ and he opens his loving arms to you, he will still love you no matter what you did, but we have to have agency and he can't make you do something . therefore its up to us to take his name upon us.

←

I truly hope that both Jesus and the Devil are real, so that when I die, I can tell both of these soul-conspirators to kiss my butt. Playing with people's lives like some kinda ######in game is not funny. Or haven't you ever read the book of Job?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason+Nov 1 2005, 02:58 PM-->

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 1 2005, 02:41 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Nov 1 2005, 01:36 PM

Let me ask you a question Ray.  Can a Comet sin?  Let's say that it's shooting through space, just as it should, and it slams into a moon or planet.  Has it sinned?

Uh, No.

Just as it had no choice in the matter, neither does man. God created us as we are, therefore it is not possible to sin. Nothing, not murder, rape, homosexualilty, theft, nothing is a sin. Just as you cannot blame a wolf for killing a sheep, you cannot blame a man for killing another. It is our nature. We were created like this. That's it.

And to save a little time, I'll define "sin" as willfully choosing to do something contrary to the will of God.

←

Well, since it is not possible to be perfect according to your god, he has set you up for failure. No wonder you think you need Jesus.

Sounds like you need to find a better god. Im sure that there's a used god lot somewhere where you can trade in your lemon and get a better god.

←

Spiritual death sure is painful eh Jason? You know the harder you kick against God... the more pain you will feel... why not just admit you have sinned and humble yourself to Him.... onlyl then will the pain stop... or there is the other way to make it stop.... by totally giving yourself over to Satan.... right now you are trying to sit on the fence between them denying they both exist... until you choose... and submit to one or the other completely... the pain will not stop.... and I am talking COMPLETELY!!!!

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason+Nov 1 2005, 02:58 PM-->

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 1 2005, 02:41 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Nov 1 2005, 01:36 PM

Let me ask you a question Ray.  Can a Comet sin?  Let's say that it's shooting through space, just as it should, and it slams into a moon or planet.  Has it sinned?

Uh, No.

Just as it had no choice in the matter, neither does man. God created us as we are, therefore it is not possible to sin. Nothing, not murder, rape, homosexualilty, theft, nothing is a sin. Just as you cannot blame a wolf for killing a sheep, you cannot blame a man for killing another. It is our nature. We were created like this. That's it.

And to save a little time, I'll define "sin" as willfully choosing to do something contrary to the will of God.

←

Well, since it is not possible to be perfect according to your god, he has set you up for failure. No wonder you think you need Jesus.

Sounds like you need to find a better god. Im sure that there's a used god lot somewhere where you can trade in your lemon and get a better god.

←

You are only hurting yourself... your pain is incredible... have you ever heard of the phrase... 'curse God and die'? well you are dying Jason... a very painful death... and you are only prolonging your own suffering...

[Ray]

Jason,

You're in denial... literally denying the evidence you once received concerning the Book of Mormon and all other things associated with the official doctrine of the Church.

It would be one thing to say you don't understand, or that you can't see how these things can be true, but it's a totally different matter to choose to actually deny the evidence you received, if indeed you did receive that evidence according to your own testimony.

And as I said, I suggest you prepare yourself for what you will say to God once you see Him, or should I say see Him again, on the day of judgment, because He will be expecting you to answer for what you have done and are continuing to do.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Please+Nov 1 2005, 05:09 PM-->

Originally posted by Jason@Nov 1 2005, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 1 2005, 02:41 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Nov 1 2005, 01:36 PM

Let me ask you a question Ray.  Can a Comet sin?  Let's say that it's shooting through space, just as it should, and it slams into a moon or planet.  Has it sinned?

Uh, No.

Just as it had no choice in the matter, neither does man. God created us as we are, therefore it is not possible to sin. Nothing, not murder, rape, homosexualilty, theft, nothing is a sin. Just as you cannot blame a wolf for killing a sheep, you cannot blame a man for killing another. It is our nature. We were created like this. That's it.

And to save a little time, I'll define "sin" as willfully choosing to do something contrary to the will of God.

←

Well, since it is not possible to be perfect according to your god, he has set you up for failure. No wonder you think you need Jesus.

Sounds like you need to find a better god. Im sure that there's a used god lot somewhere where you can trade in your lemon and get a better god.

←

Spiritual death sure is painful eh Jason? You know the harder you kick against God... the more pain you will feel... why not just admit you have sinned and humble yourself to Him.... onlyl then will the pain stop... or there is the other way to make it stop.... by totally giving yourself over to Satan.... right now you are trying to sit on the fence between them denying they both exist... until you choose... and submit to one or the other completely... the pain will not stop.... and I am talking COMPLETELY!!!!

←

Actually,the pain has subsided since my Cranial-Sacral therapy this morning. My neck hasn't felt this good in days.

Oh, and "I accept Jeeesus into my heart and ask his all-holy forgiveness!" Amen!

[Jason]

Originally posted by Please+Nov 1 2005, 05:12 PM-->

Originally posted by Jason@Nov 1 2005, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 1 2005, 02:41 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Nov 1 2005, 01:36 PM

Let me ask you a question Ray.  Can a Comet sin?  Let's say that it's shooting through space, just as it should, and it slams into a moon or planet.  Has it sinned?

Uh, No.

Just as it had no choice in the matter, neither does man. God created us as we are, therefore it is not possible to sin. Nothing, not murder, rape, homosexualilty, theft, nothing is a sin. Just as you cannot blame a wolf for killing a sheep, you cannot blame a man for killing another. It is our nature. We were created like this. That's it.

And to save a little time, I'll define "sin" as willfully choosing to do something contrary to the will of God.

←

Well, since it is not possible to be perfect according to your god, he has set you up for failure. No wonder you think you need Jesus.

Sounds like you need to find a better god. Im sure that there's a used god lot somewhere where you can trade in your lemon and get a better god.

←

You are only hurting yourself... your pain is incredible... have you ever heard of the phrase... 'curse God and die'? well you are dying Jason... a very painful death... and you are only prolonging your own suffering...

←

You ever read the rest of that ridiculous tale called the book of Job? Does it make you feel good to know that your god and your devil are playing games with you?

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Nov 1 2005, 05:15 PM

Jason,

You're in denial... literally denying the evidence you once received concerning the Book of Mormon and all other things associated with the official doctrine of the Church.

It's not denial. I admit that I received said witnesses. I also realize, unlike you, that they are self-manufactured. I saw, felt, and heard what I wanted to see, feel and hear.

You, my strangely religious friend, are the one in denial. You deny that said testimonies are in fact produced from within your own framework of reality.

It would be one thing to say you don't understand, or that you can't see how these things can be true, but it's a totally different matter to choose to actually deny the evidence you received, if indeed you did receive that evidence according to your own testimony.

And as I said, I suggest you prepare yourself for what you will say to God once you see Him, or should I say see Him again, on the day of judgment, because He will be expecting you to answer for what you have done and are continuing to do.

←

Oh, I'm working on a list on my blog about what I'll say to 'em. Not that I believe I'll have that chance, but at least, electronically, I can tell em off!

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Jason :Actually,the pain has subsided since my Cranial-Sacral therapy this morning. My neck hasn't felt this good in days.

Oh, and "I accept Jeeesus into my heart and ask his all-holy forgiveness!" Amen! 

LOL... if only it was that easy....

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Jason : You ever read the rest of that ridiculous tale called the book of Job? Does it make you feel good to know that your god and your devil are playing games with you?

I have more than read the book I have studied it for over a year... I found something you seemed to have missed... the understanding of it all...

[Jason]

Originally posted by Please@Nov 1 2005, 05:39 PM

Jason : You ever read the rest of that ridiculous tale called the book of Job? Does it make you feel good to know that your god and your devil are playing games with you?

I have more than read the book I have studied it for over a year... I found something you seemed to have missed... the understanding of it all...

←

Oh, are we back to allegory and metaphors again? Why is it that so many of the allegories of the bible are understood as allegories, but the creation story is a fact, not an allegory?

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason+Nov 1 2005, 05:48 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Nov 1 2005, 05:39 PM

Jason : You ever read the rest of that ridiculous tale called the book of Job? Does it make you feel good to know that your god and your devil are playing games with you?

I have more than read the book I have studied it for over a year... I found something you seemed to have missed... the understanding of it all...

←

Oh, are we back to allegory and metaphors again? Why is it that so many of the allegories of the bible are understood as allegories, but the creation story is a fact, not an allegory?

←

First of all this is me... in my lastest phot shoot... hope it comes up...

Secondly... this story is not an aligory to me... it happened. And it rehappens to different people over and over again... it is trying to tell you something about the phrase endure to the end... against all hazzard...