Proof Of The Bible

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Ok, to go along with the "Proof of the Book of Mormon" thread, I thought I would start this one.

Let's list all the proofs for the truth of the Bible.

I'll start:

ummm...

Ancient Egyptian civilization existed. That is a small bit of proof for "Exodus".

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

That was too easy!

Ok, here are 10 tougher questions:

1. Do we have evidence for the existence of the Flood as described in Genesis?

2. Do we have evidence for the life of Moses outside the Bible. Is he mentioned by name?

3. Do we have evidence for the life of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc...?

4. Do we have evidence for the life of David?

5. Do we have evidence for the existence of Jesus outside the Bible? Mary? Joseph? John the Baptist? Pilate?

6. When, and in what order were the gospels written in, and does this tell us anything about their reliability?

7. Do we have evidence for Christ's ressurection?

8. Do we have evidence for the Creation story in Genesis? Adam and Eve? What about Dinosaurs...how do they fit in?

9. Are there any contradictions in the Bible? If so, list them.

10. What are the evidences for mistranslations of the Bible?

[elinz]

You still haven't understood the difference between the

"narrative" style and the deeper meaning that is often

presented as a "parable".

When someone says it is "God's Word" they mean that

it defines a "truth" which is a "pattern" of the way thngs

really are. Deep truths are not attached to specifics.

When the narrative style is used it introduces the possibility

of error because it attempts to make a literal story of

an event.

By focusing on the details you miss the deeper meaning.

So the dilemma is this:

Use the narrative and risk "detail error".

or

Use parables and risk "intellectual failure".

Neither choice is perfect, but that's the diffculty in trying

to communicate complex ideas.

People are incredibly stupid, unfortunately...

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

So do you believe, as I do, that the Bible is true as Metaphor?

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Feb 18 2004, 04:55 PM

That was too easy!

Ok, here are 10 tougher questions:

1. Do we have evidence for the existence of the Flood as described in Genesis?

2. Do we have evidence for the life of Moses outside the Bible. Is he mentioned by name?

3. Do we have evidence for the life of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc...?

4. Do we have evidence for the life of David?

5. Do we have evidence for the existence of Jesus outside the Bible? Mary? Joseph? John the Baptist? Pilate?

6. When, and in what order were the gospels written in, and does this tell us anything about their reliability?

7. Do we have evidence for Christ's ressurection?

8. Do we have evidence for the Creation story in Genesis? Adam and Eve? What about Dinosaurs...how do they fit in?

9. Are there any contradictions in the Bible? If so, list them.

10. What are the evidences for mistranslations of the Bible?

I asked these 10 questions, not because I doubt the Bible...

I asked because the BoM has been criticized on the other thread for lack of evidence, and I think we should evaluate the Bible in the same way.

Isn't that fair?

[elinz]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Feb 18 2004, 06:08 PM

So do you believe, as I do, that the Bible is true as Metaphor?

Essentially yes.

And it's truth is 100% in my view.

Details come and go, but the deeper

meaning is correct.

The problem with calling it "only" a

metaphor is that someone else can

come along and create a "false"

metaphor that works "good enough"

for most.

There really is a truth in all of this... B)

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Thanks to Snow for this quote...

Originally posted by Snow+Feb 18 2004, 04:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Feb 18 2004, 04:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Taoist_Saint@Feb 18 2004, 03:52 PM

TR2,

Please do me a favor and stop quoting the Bible. 

I don't believe it is anything more than Hebrew mythology...

What? How can that be.

Do you not believe in talking donkeys?

<span style='color:blue'>Numbers 22

Balaam and His Donkey

27 This time when the donkey saw the angel, it lay down under Balaam. In a fit of rage Balaam beat it again with his staff.

28..."What have I done to you that deserves your beating me these three times?" it asked Balaam.

29"Because you have made me look like a fool!" Balaam shouted. "If I had a sword with me, I would kill you!"

30"But I am the same donkey you always ride on," the donkey answered. "Have I ever done anything like this before?"

"No," he admitted.

So it is ridiculous that the BoM mentions horses existed in ancient America...but it is not ridiculous that donkeys in the Middle East can talk?

Show me evidence to prove donkeys can talk.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by elinz@Feb 18 2004, 05:27 PM

The problem with calling it "only" a

metaphor is that someone else can

come along and create a "false"

metaphor that works "good enough"

for most.

Agreed. I never said "only a metaphor". I do believe in "The Power of Myth".

[elinz]

The old elephant story works well for me:

We are all blind men in a room with an elephant.

Each person has their own "testimony" of what

they can touch / know.

But at the end of the day we are all describing

the same elephant.

(it's just that some people are facing the walls

and don't know there's an elephant! )

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Interesting metaphor.

Sorry, I just want to get this back on topic:

1. Do we have evidence for the existence of the Flood as described in Genesis?

2. Do we have evidence for the life of Moses outside the Bible. Is he mentioned by name?

3. Do we have evidence for the life of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc...?

4. Do we have evidence for the life of David?

5. Do we have evidence for the existence of Jesus outside the Bible? Mary? Joseph? John the Baptist? Pilate?

6. When, and in what order were the gospels written in, and does this tell us anything about their reliability?

7. Do we have evidence for Christ's ressurection?

8. Do we have evidence for the Creation story in Genesis? Adam and Eve? What about Dinosaurs...how do they fit in?

9. Are there any contradictions in the Bible? If so, list them.

10. What are the evidences for mistranslations of the Bible?

[Cal]

As to a LITERAL interpretation of the Flood as meaning that water literally covered ALL land--there is TONS of evidence that that kind of "flood" never happened and NONE that it did. Some speculate as to how it "could" have happened but most, if not all, of it is scientific non-sense.

[Ray]

Originally posted by elinz@Feb 18 2004, 05:04 PM

You still haven't understood the difference between the

"narrative" style and the deeper meaning that is often

presented as a "parable".

When someone says it is "God's Word" they mean that

it defines a "truth" which is a "pattern" of the way thngs

really are. Deep truths are not attached to specifics.

When the narrative style is used it introduces the possibility

of error because it attempts to make a literal story of

an event.

By focusing on the details you miss the deeper meaning.

So the dilemma is this:

Use the narrative and risk "detail error".

or

Use parables and risk "intellectual failure".

Neither choice is perfect, but that's the diffculty in trying

to communicate complex ideas.

People are incredibly stupid, unfortunately...

That’s an interesting idea, but I see things differently. I think the truth is in the details, it’s just that all the details aren’t fully understood.

For instance, I believe Adam and Eve are the parents of all “humans” who have ever been born on the Earth. The only exception is Jesus, because His father was our heavenly Father. But then again, He wasn’t exactly “human” like the rest of us, so I can truthfully say that all “humans” who were ever born on this Earth descended from Adam and Eve. Jesus was both “human” and “divine”, because His mother was a “human” and His father was “divine”. I could get a little more specific about what it means to be “human” or “divine”, but I think I’ll stop there for now.

Some people say that Adam and Eve didn’t really exist, or if they did exist, that those names are only a reference to non-specific persons.

Like I said, I believe the truth is in the details, and that you must understand every little detail about everything before you can understand all of the truth.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Cal@Feb 18 2004, 05:49 PM

As to a LITERAL interpretation of the Flood as meaning that water literally covered ALL land--there is TONS of evidence that that kind of "flood" never happened and NONE that it did. Some speculate as to how it "could" have happened but most, if not all, of it is scientific non-sense.

I agree. Yesterday I was talking about some floods that happened after the last Ice Age...but it was not a worldwide flood covering every piece of land.

However, what does the Bible say exactly? I heard that the translation of the word "The Earth" in Hebrew could also be translated "land" or "region"... in that case it could have been a local flood, and fit the Bible perfectly.

On the other hand, can someone give me evidence that Noah put two of every animal into one boat to survive the flood? And if so, how did the Kangaroos get to Australia from the Middle East?

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Ray@Feb 18 2004, 05:52 PM

That’s an interesting idea, but I see things differently.  I think the truth is in the details, it’s just that all the details aren’t fully understood.

For instance, I believe Adam and Eve are the parents of all “humans” who have ever been born on the Earth...

Hey guys, lets not get into the debate over the Bible as Metaphor vs. the Bible as Literal Truth.

I will open a new topic to debate that stuff.

This thread is for proofs and evidences that the Bible is literally true.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Update:

1. Do we have evidence for the existence of the Flood as described in Genesis?

Possibly a local flood?

Or the end of the Ice Age?

How did all the animals fit in the Ark?

How did the Kangaroos get to Australia from the Middle East?

2. Do we have evidence for the life of Moses outside the Bible. Is he mentioned by name?

3. Do we have evidence for the life of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc...?

4. Do we have evidence for the life of David?

5. Do we have evidence for the existence of Jesus outside the Bible? Mary? Joseph? John the Baptist? Pilate?

6. When, and in what order were the gospels written in, and does this tell us anything about their reliability?

7. Do we have evidence for Christ's ressurection?

8. Do we have evidence for the Creation story in Genesis? Adam and Eve? What about Dinosaurs...how do they fit in?

9. Are there any contradictions in the Bible? If so, list them.

10. What are the evidences for mistranslations of the Bible?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Feb 18 2004, 04:55 PM

Tao,

Your idea that ancient Egypt is a small proof of Genesis is no proof at all - no more than the Movie Gone with the Wind is proof that Rhett Butler was a real live person.

You need to define evidence to correctly answer your questions - legal, linguists, scientific, historical. However, here goes:

1. Do we have evidence for the existence of the Flood as described in Genesis?

>>>No and there is tons of evidence to the contrary.

2. Do we have evidence for the life of Moses outside the Bible. Is he mentioned by name?

>>>No

3. Do we have evidence for the life of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc...?

>>>No

4. Do we have evidence for the life of David?

>>Yes, and I have seen it in person. It is the oldest written mention of his name - on a piece of building stone, probably etched within a hundred years of his life. However, the Bible account of him as some near superman King is probably inaccurate. It is more likely that he was a regional governor type later recalled in mythic proportions to give the Jews a sense of heritage.

5. Do we have evidence for the existence of Jesus outside the Bible? Mary? Joseph? John the Baptist? Pilate?

>>>No, no contemporary historical evidence - only later entries.

6. When, and in what order were the gospels written in, and does this tell us anything about their reliability?

>>>Mark is the earliest. Luke and Matthew used Mark for source material.

7. Do we have evidence for Christ's ressurection?

>>>No

8. Do we have evidence for the Creation story in Genesis? Adam and Eve? What about Dinosaurs...how do they fit in?

>>>No and evidence exists to the contrary.

9. Are there any contradictions in the Bible? If so, list them.

>>>There are thousands. Here's a start:

http://www.atheists.org/church/contradictions.html

[example: ON THE POWER OF GOD

"... with God all things are possible." -- Matthew 19:26

"...The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." -- Judges 1:19

ON SEEING GOD

"... I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." -- Genesis 32:30

"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18

10. What are the evidences for mistranslations of the Bible?

Egads, the list is endless. Start with Moses parting the "Red Sea". Wrong. He parted the "Sea of Reeds." --- Parting a marsh is not quite so impressive as part a deep and wide body of water.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Snow@Feb 18 2004, 06:05 PM

Tao,

Your idea that ancient Egypt is a small proof of Genesis is no proof at all - no more than the Movie Gone with the Wind is proof that Rhett Butler was a real live person.

I know...I was just being sarcastic.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Thanks for the answers, Snow.

As you can probably guess, I'm not trying to convince myself the Bible is true. I am trying to make the point that there is very little evidence for the Bible...just like the Book of Mormon.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Could someone PLEASE give me proof (or even a convincing explanation) for the story of "Balaam and his talking donkey"?

Once again that is found in Numbers 22.

If I don't get it, it is totally going to shake my faith in the Bible.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Feb 18 2004, 06:39 PM

Could someone PLEASE give me proof (or even a convincing explanation) for the story of "Balaam and his talking donkey"?

I doubt that anyone here that is willing to defend their belief publically believes that the Bible is both literally true AND moderately infallible, except maybe Trident but I suspect that he would dare touch this topic... and if he does, won't be able to refute any of my answers; but of course, he'll attack the BoM for failing the same tests as the Bible.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Feb 18 2004, 04:55 PM

That was too easy!

Ok, here are 10 tougher questions:

1.  Do we have evidence for the existence of the Flood as described in Genesis?

2.  Do we have evidence for the life of Moses outside the Bible.  Is he mentioned by name?

3.  Do we have evidence for the life of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc...?

4.  Do we have evidence for the life of David? 

5.  Do we have evidence for the existence of Jesus outside the Bible?  Mary?  Joseph?  John the Baptist?  Pilate?

6.  When, and in what order were the gospels written in, and does this tell us anything about their reliability?

7.  Do we have evidence for Christ's ressurection?

8.  Do we have evidence for the Creation story in Genesis?  Adam and Eve?  What about Dinosaurs...how do they fit in?

9.  Are there any contradictions in the Bible?  If so, list them.

10.  What are the evidences for mistranslations of the Bible?

The answers to #5 and #9 are yes.

Here is a good test to take to see if you really know your Bible. http://home.cinci.rr.com/dancers/wmdbq/

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

I want evidence for talking donkey's, man!

Without that, everything falls apart!

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Feb 18 2004, 06:39 PM

Could someone PLEASE give me proof (or even a convincing explanation) for the story of "Balaam and his talking donkey"?

Once again that is found in Numbers 22.

If I don't get it, it is totally going to shake my faith in the Bible.

Well we all know the moral to that story....mules can be more spiritually discerning than men....which a few have demonstrated right here on this very forum....LOL So maybe that proves the Bible to be true! Wow!

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

So the talking donkey is just a metaphor?

Say it ain't so!

[Guest Starsky]

Personally I say it ain't so....but everything in the Bible can be used in many different settings.

As long of wisdom comes from it....then it has done it's job, whether literal, metaphoric, or fable.