St. Athansius and Gods

[Faded]

Soninme you have your opinions on things and that is clear enough. It is also quite clear that you're not really being very open-minded in any of your opinions. For that reason, The Church of Jesus Christ will forever remain bizarre and mysterious to you, filled with teachings that either differ from or contradict things you passionately believe.

Where does that leave us? Wasting time going into one endless debate after another, a process that will never end and never actually accomplish anything.

You will simply have to trust me on this much: I've heard every single point you made many, many, many times. I realized a long time ago that engaging in these lengthy debates can never accomplish anything useful without open-mindedness.

So I have to ask, what are you hoping to accomplish here?

[Soninme]

Faded,

Very timely post as I also have been pondering the point of it all. I'm NOT trying to start another debate here.

If being "open-minded" means that I should treat the Bible as; let me see if I can remember a few quotes;

1- "pseudo" which means "lying or false"

2 -much of it has come to us second or third hand, some of it is pseudepigraphic

3- most of the OT is considered pseudepigraphical (not written by the original author). Isaiah was likely written by at least 2 people, if not 3. Daniel was probably written as late as the 2nd century BC. Most of Deuteronomy was written by the temple priests during King Josiah's reign. Were the people who wrote these, inspired? How do we really know? Or were they taking oral tradition and pushing their political views into it. Old Testament scholar Margaret Barker has written several books on how the Deuteronomists changed the temple rites and rewrote major things in the sacred writings (including Deuteronomy).

4- Once again, Paul didn't write 2 Tim. While I consider it to still be inspired, I do not consider it perfect. Later Christians sought to push their personal agenda into the scriptures by writing an epistle and putting Paul's name in it. While much of it is stuff Paul would have said (so it wouldn't look too much like a forgery), there are things he would not have said in it.

Really! so it wouldn't look too much like a forgery???????? If Paul didn't write it it IS a forgery:confused:

How can one have a rational discussion with one who says 2 Tim is "inspired" but a forgery?

Ahh I forgot, I need to be open-minded

[rameumptom]

Soninme, you have been busy sharing your opinions. Thank you for them. However, facts are difficult things to deal with. I've given facts regarding the Bible, and you have used your opinion to disbelieve them. That is your choice. But that does not make the facts go away.

Dimmesdale also has used opinion rather than facts. I've given scripture and logic to consider things such as why the Law of Moses would be considered perfect and an eternal covenant, but then fulfilled/completed and replaced by the gospel of Christ. He gave his rationale for why it occurred, and I agree with his rationale, but it does not explain anything, nor does it answer the questions.

The story goes of a helicopter tour in Seattle gets lost in the fog. The chopper pilot drops down to where he can see a building, where a man is looking out the window. He writes on a piece of paper: Where am I?

The man quickly gets a piece of paper and writes back: You are in a helicopter.

While the information is factual, it really doesn't answer the real intent of the question. So it is with the "answers" Dimmesdale and Soninme have been delivering. There has been no real discussion, because when facts are produced, the response always seems to be: you are in a helicopter.

[Faded]

Faded,

Very timely post as I also have been pondering the point of it all. I'm NOT trying to start another debate here.

If being "open-minded" means that I should treat the Bible as; let me see if I can remember a few quotes;

1- "pseudo" which means "lying or false"

I believe that "questionable" is a more accurate definition of pseudo. And I certainly do not agree that the Bible is Pseudopigraphorical.

2 -much of it has come to us second or third hand, some of it is pseudepigraphic

Valid point applicable to only one book of the Bible: The Song of Solomon. Joseph Smith considered all of the rest to be inspired writings and the word of God.

3- most of the OT is considered pseudepigraphical (not written by the original author). Isaiah was likely written by at least 2 people, if not 3. Daniel was probably written as late as the 2nd century BC. Most of Deuteronomy was written by the temple priests during King Josiah's reign. Were the people who wrote these, inspired? How do we really know? Or were they taking oral tradition and pushing their political views into it. Old Testament scholar Margaret Barker has written several books on how the Deuteronomists changed the temple rites and rewrote major things in the sacred writings (including Deuteronomy).

See above. Whether all of this is true or not, the men that compiled and abridged the Biblical Old Testament record -- apparently compiled in the time of Josiah, written by men much like Ezra, Nehemiah, etc -- were prophets and men of God.

Consider the Book of Mormon (which we accept and you do not of course.) Mormon was a prophet and he abridged the collective works and writings of the Prophets and history of God's people. So even though Latter Day Saints would love to have the original works of all the prophets, we accept what we have as inspired and of God.

4- Once again, Paul didn't write 2 Tim. While I consider it to still be inspired, I do not consider it perfect. Later Christians sought to push their personal agenda into the scriptures by writing an epistle and putting Paul's name in it. While much of it is stuff Paul would have said (so it wouldn't look too much like a forgery), there are things he would not have said in it.

Really! so it wouldn't look too much like a forgery???????? If Paul didn't write it it IS a forgery:confused:

How can one have a rational discussion with one who says 2 Tim is "inspired" but a forgery?

Ahh I forgot, I need to be open-minded

Who said that 2 Timothy is a forgery?

Modern scholarship is one thing. There are many reasons put forward by modern scholars putting the Biblical record into question. But ultimately, as a Latter Day Saint, we come back to Joseph Smith's statements that insofar as they were translated and transcribed correctly, every book in the Bible (excepting the Song of Solomon) is of God.

Where the real difference of opinions comes about is how you and we define the Bible.

We believe the Bible to be the surviving collected works and writings of God's dealings with his people. For the most part, the Old Testament is his dealings with the children of Israel, and the New Testament recounts God's dealings with both Jew and Gentile. The reason God preserved what's left of the records is to teach all humankind to come unto Christ, the only hope for their salvation.

Up to this point, our understanding of the Bible is the same.

Where we disagree is:

1.) The Bible is the ONLY written word of God and God himself forbade anymore from ever being written.

2.) The Bible is absolutely perfect.

3.) The Bible is complete.

4.) The Bible is everything we need to lead us to God and teach us his will for us.

These four points are where Latter Day Saints disagree with you and others of your opinion.

Edited March 18, 2010 by Faded

[Faded]

Joseph Smith said

For, notwithstanding the great love which the converts to these different faiths expressed at the time of their conversion, and the great zeal manifested by the respective clergy, who were active in getting up and promoting this extraordinary scene of religious feeling, in order to have everybody converted, as they were pleased to call it, let them join what sect they pleased; yet when the converts began to file off, some to one party and some to another, it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real; for a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued—priest contending against priest, and convert against convert; so that all their good feelings one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words and a contest about opinions.

So the first problem that the 14 year old Joseph Smith recounts: If any denomination was fine and good, why was there so much bitterness and strife? If this was God’s Church and Kingdom on earth, where was the peace, harmony and unity?

Joseph Smith said

In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?

… for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

What he wanted to know seems simple enough. ‘Who is right and how can I know with absolute certainty that they are right?’ He already knew what still know today: Each denomination interprets the Bible in their own way. Any given passage used by one sect to establish their doctrine as correct will be read and understood completely differently by other sects.

Joseph Smith said

While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did

The foundational revelations leading to the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints came about because young Joseph Smith found the key to finding answers from God while reading in the Bible. He prayed, God and Christ appeared, and many revelations followed. The Bible is the key to our foundation, and remains a part of the LDS collection of sacred writings. We teach from the Bible. We hold it sacred. We believe its messages for us.

But we don't believe the Bible was ever meant to stand alone as God's only instructions for those who seek after him. The Bible certainly never teaches that the Bible is complete, nor that it is a closed record, nor that there can never be anymore written word from God. Therein lies the difference of opinion.

[Soninme]

I believe that "questionable" is a more accurate definition of pseudo. And I certainly do not agree that the Bible is Pseudopigraphorical.

Faded,

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The prefix pseudo- (from Greek ψευδής "lying, false") is used to mark something as false, fraudulent, or pretending to be something it is not.

Can you now see why that comment would disturb me so? Why would one put ANY faith in a "pseudo" document that claimed to be the word of the Almighty?

Glad to read that you don't believe the Bible to be pseudepigraphic.

Who said that 2 Timothy is a forgery?

rameumptom post #41

Once again, Paul didn't write 2 Tim. While I consider it to still be inspired, I do not consider it perfect. Later Christians sought to push their personal agenda into the scriptures by writing an epistle and putting Paul's name in it. While much of it is stuff Paul would have said (so it wouldn't look too much like a forgery), there are things he would not have said in it.

From you,

Where the real difference of opinions comes about is how you and we define the Bible.

We believe the Bible to be the surviving collected works and writings of God's dealings with his people. For the most part, the Old Testament is his dealings with the children of Israel, and the New Testament recounts God's dealings with both Jew and Gentile. The reason God preserved what's left of the records is to teach all humankind to come unto Christ, the only hope for their salvation.

Up to this point, our understanding of the Bible is the same.

I would mostly agree with you and am glad to hear that you believe the Bible to be God's word. That was my understanding of LDS belief notwithstanding rameumptom's opinion.

[rameumptom]

Who said that 2 Timothy is a forgery?

Modern scholarship is one thing. There are many reasons put forward by modern scholars putting the Biblical record into question. But ultimately, as a Latter Day Saint, we come back to Joseph Smith's statements that insofar as they were translated and transcribed correctly, every book in the Bible (excepting the Song of Solomon) is of God.

Most Bible scholars today tell us that 2 Timothy was not written by Paul. Now, that does not mean it isn't inspired. It could easily have been written years later by one of Paul's disciples, or someone else who had a good grasp of the gospel.

2 Timothy IS inspired. I just pointed out that many of the epistles of Paul were not written by Paul. The Book of Isaiah was probably written by Isaiah and one of his disciples (Deutero-Isaiah). Yet, we believe both portions are inspired.

[Faded]

Faded,

I would mostly agree with you and am glad to hear that you believe the Bible to be God's word. That was my understanding of LDS belief notwithstanding rameumptom's opinion.

I think I can safely piece together that Rameumptom also believes the Bible to be the word of God.

It would be a fair assessment that we have our doubts about proper interpretation, transcription and translation -- but it's interpretation that brings about the most disagreement and confusion.

One interesting thing we learn from the Dead Sea Scrolls. A copy of the Book of Isaiah over 1000 years older than all prior surviving copies did show minor errors in transcription, but very little in the way of drastic change of the text. I would ascribe that to divine intervention more than anything else. Still, errors were demonstrated to have happened, so we might anticipate small mistakes.

[Soninme]

Most Bible scholars today tell us that 2 Timothy was not written by Paul. Now, that does not mean it isn't inspired. It could easily have been written years later by one of Paul's disciples, or someone else who had a good grasp of the gospel.

2 Timothy IS inspired. I just pointed out that many of the epistles of Paul were not written by Paul. The Book of Isaiah was probably written by Isaiah and one of his disciples (Deutero-Isaiah). Yet, we believe both portions are inspired.

rameumptom,

Gonna go down with the ship on this one are ya?

Ok I'll bite.

You said;

many of the epistles of Paul were not written by Paul.

2Timothy being one of them and you also said;

Now, that does not mean it isn't inspired.

Okay then, inspired by who?

This is what I don't get, please help me.

13 New Testament epistles claim to be written by Paul including 2 Timothy which you say was not. If you and your "scholars" are correct then please explain verses 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Before you answer keep in mind these verses;

2 Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Peter called Paul's letters scripture.

2 Peter 1: 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

1Cor. 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual.

A letter that claims to be written by Paul and God-breathed but in fact wasn't is by definition and logic a lie. The only way it wouldn't be a lie is if in fact it IS written by Paul and God-breathed. Seriously does God really "inspire" people to bear false witness and add thier own teachings?

If you truly believe this that is your prerogative but don't be surprised if others have a different "opinion" and don't see the "facts" as you see them.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

I sure He meant all His God-breathed words.

...

[rameumptom]

It means that "God breathed" doesn't mean what you are reading into it. God-breathed means it is inspired, even if it wasn't written by a particular person. However, that does not mean it is perfect, either.

This is why living prophets and apostles are so important. They can go directly to God to inquire His Will and Direction for us now, rather than solely relying upon inspired writings from millennia ago.

God wishes to speak to us today, not just 2000 years ago. That is why Revelation foresees 2 prophets prophesying in the days of Armageddon, and why Joel says that there will be revelation in the last days. This is why Paul places so much emphasis on living prophets and apostles as the foundation of the Church, with Christ as the corner stone.

Without living prophets and apostles to bring us closer to the fullness of the truth, we end up guessing at what the Bible means. We end up with thousands of Christian churches, each agreeing on some things, but seriously disagreeing on other things.

Is abortion good or evil? Is homosexuality good or evil? Should we marry homosexuals? Should immigrants be allowed to enter illegally into the USA? Should we be a conservative or liberal people? Do we really need to keep the commandments, or is faith sufficient to save us? Is baptism required for salvation? Should women be ordained to the church leadership, or should they keep quiet in church as Paul instructs? Does God approve of our giant stockpile of nuclear weapons? How about our national debt and health care? Are we saved by grace/faith without works as Paul states, or do we listen to James who insists that faith without works is dead? Is the Godhead a Trinity of spirit, 3 individual beings that are one in purpose, or something else? If authority was necessary, why aren't we all Catholics? If authority was not necessary, then why did Jesus ordain apostles to succeed him, and they later replaced Judas? If the Catholics are correct, then why aren't we praying to saints? Is there one heaven or three heavens (2 Cor 12:1-4)?

I could go on with a long list of issues that the Bible does not speak of, or barely touches upon, or seems to be contradictory on (such as faith/works). If the Bible were God Breathed in the sense that you give it, then why so many struggles with understanding the Bible? Wouldn't God, in creating a perfect text, have also made it easy to understand for everyone? Wouldn't he have anticipated all these questions and issues, and answered them clearly in one way, rather than having two Church leaders answer differently (i.e.; Paul and James)?

For this reason, I state that "God breathed" must mean "inspired" and not anything more. And it shows the importance of having living prophets and apostles to guide us in understanding the Gospel of Christ today.

[Soninme]

You didn't answer my question.

Inspired by who?

[Faded]

You didn't answer my question.

Inspired by who?

Personally, I would throw it into the same category as Hebrews. A lot of scholars will tell you that Paul didn't write the Epistle to the Hebrews. We still consider it to be inspired writings from God.

The obvious difference: Paul always identified himself in each epistle as the writer. In 2 Timothy, Paul did identify himself as the author. Whoever wrote Hebrews did not.

It should be pointed out that it is NOT the position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that 2nd Timothy was not written by Paul. That is a matter of scholarly debate that rameumptom has knowledge of.

The official position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is this: All the books of the Bible are legitimate inspired writings, written by authorized men of God. The only exception to this: The Song of Solomon. That has been the position of the Church of Jesus Christ since Joseph Smith and it isn't going to change.

That means that whether Hebrews was written by Paul or by Barnabas or by John Mark or by somebody else, it doesn't matter. It is inspired writings by an authorized man of God and it is scripture. It means that if Isaiah was written by one man or 500 men, it's still our understanding that the original writers were authorized prophets of God and that the entire book of Isaiah is scripture, and the word of God.

Likewise, if the legitimate true copies of the following works were found, they are inspired writings by authorized men of God, and scripture: Book of the Covenant (Exodus 24:7), the Book of the Wars of the Lord (Numbers 21:14), the Book of Jasher (Joshua 10:13), the writing of Samuel referenced in 1 Samuel 10:25, the Book of the Acts of Solomon (1 Kings 11:41), the Book of Samuel the Seer (1 Chronicles 29:29), the Book of Nathan the Prophet (1 Chronicles 29:29), the Book of Gad the Seer (1 Chronicles 29:29), the Prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite (2 Chronicles 9:29), the Visions of Iddo the Seer (2 Chronicles 9:29), the Book of Shemaiah the Prophet (2 Chronicles 12:15), the book of Jehu (2 Chronicles 20:34), the Sayings of the Seers (2 Chronicles 33:19), and the writings of Enoch referenced in Jude 1:14. If other true writings of ancient prophets and apostles came to light, they are also scripture.

I don't see the value of debating the authorship of 2 Timothy. Paul identified himself in the opening verses of the epistle. So unless it were to be conclusively demonstrated that somebody added in that first sentence well after it was written, then we should simply accept it as a bonifide epistle of Paul. If it isn't written by Paul, it doesn't change a thing from the LDS perspective since we already have assurance that it is an authoritative writing.

I think that focusing on the scholarly debate about the authorship of various Biblical writings is an unnecessary distraction. It's a venture it the speculative, and isn't really discussing the more important matters.

The weightier matter at hand is this: Soninme, do you believe that the Bible is the only written word of God? Do you believe that it is the only written word of God that can ever be? If you do believe that the Bible is the only written word of God and that there can never be anymore, what do you base that belief upon?

Edited March 22, 2010 by Faded

[Soninme]

It means that "God breathed" doesn't mean what you are reading into it. God-breathed means it is inspired, even if it wasn't written by a particular person. However, that does not mean it is perfect, either.

rameumptom,

You are entitled to your opinion but the inspired writer of Psalm 19:7 disagrees with you; "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple".

Also James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Should I believe the Bible or you?

If God breaths something what would you expect?:)

This is why living prophets and apostles are so important. They can go directly to God to inquire His Will and Direction for us now, rather than solely relying upon inspired writings from millennia ago.

Again, the inspired writer of John 14:26 disagrees with you; "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you". Also the inspired writer of James 1:5 "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him". Sounds like we should go directly to God.

Jesus disagrees with you. This is what He thought of "inspired writings from a millenia" before He became flesh and dwelt among us;

"Have you not read" Matthew 12:3

"have you not read in the Law" Matthew 12:5

"Did you never read in the Scriptures" Matthew 21:42

"What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?" (Luke 10:26)

Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God? (Mark 12:24)

But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. (Matthew 22:29)

"The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him" (Matthew 26:24)

"What then is this that is written: 'The stone which the builders rejected, This became the chief corner stone'? (Luke 20:17)

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me (John 5:39)

"How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?" (Matthew 26:54)

Should I believe the Bible or you?

God wishes to speak to us today, not just 2000 years ago. That is why Revelation foresees 2 prophets prophesying in the days of Armageddon, and why Joel says that there will be revelation in the last days.

Sure, but will these witnesses prophecy that which is contrary to the Bible?

Will what they say be God-breathed?

This is why Paul places so much emphasis on living prophets and apostles as the foundation of the Church, with Christ as the corner stone.

Now does the inspired writer of Ephesians 2:20 say "living" prophets and apostles or did you add that word under inspiration? if so, which "living" prophets did he refer to?

Without living prophets and apostles to bring us closer to the fullness of the truth, we end up guessing at what the Bible means. We end up with thousands of Christian churches, each agreeing on some things, but seriously disagreeing on other things.

Again, the inspired writer of John 8:31-32 disagrees with you; "Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Remember, Jesus said He would send the Spirit to "guide you into all truth" and "tell you things to come" John 16:13.

If fallen humans "guess" and "seriously disagree" on Biblical teachings, do we blame the Bible and claim that it's not enough to know the truth even though Jesus said it is? Did the inspired writers misquote or add their own ideas or was it falsely translated?

Is abortion good or evil? Is homosexuality good or evil? Should we marry homosexuals? Should immigrants be allowed to enter illegally into the USA? Should we be a conservative or liberal people? Do we really need to keep the commandments, or is faith sufficient to save us? Is baptism required for salvation? Should women be ordained to the church leadership, or should they keep quiet in church as Paul instructs? Does God approve of our giant stockpile of nuclear weapons? How about our national debt and health care? Are we saved by grace/faith without works as Paul states, or do we listen to James who insists that faith without works is dead? Is the Godhead a Trinity of spirit, 3 individual beings that are one in purpose, or something else? If authority was necessary, why aren't we all Catholics? If authority was not necessary, then why did Jesus ordain apostles to succeed him, and they later replaced Judas? If the Catholics are correct, then why aren't we praying to saints? Is there one heaven or three heavens (2 Cor 12:1-4)?

I would suggest you consider what Jesus said; John 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth". Sanctify means "set apart". Also John 15:4Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5.I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

6.If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

7.If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

8.By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

What happens if we don't "abide" in Christ?

Also from the inspired writer of 2 Timothy 3:15 ( I know;) but it is inspired:rolleyes:)"from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." Obviously the sacred writings are the word of truth Jesus was refering to.

I could go on with a long list of issues that the Bible does not speak of, or barely touches upon, or seems to be contradictory on (such as faith/works). If the Bible were God Breathed in the sense that you give it, then why so many struggles with understanding the Bible? Wouldn't God, in creating a perfect text, have also made it easy to understand for everyone? Wouldn't he have anticipated all these questions and issues, and answered them clearly in one way, rather than having two Church leaders answer differently (i.e.; Paul and James)?

I hear you claim "inspired" and "God's word" then I hear things like this over and over again about how the Bible is not only far from perfect but lacking, contadictory, pseudo, deutero, trito, 500ero ect.. ect.. Which is it?. I have heard these objections from those who think the Bible to be nonsense or worse. Do you think men of God such as David or Moses or Isaiah and others had your view of scripture? It's no wonder why you're looking elsewhere. Shouldn't we have the same view as Jesus did?

No, the Bible doesn't say whether we should take a shower or a bath but it does speak to everything that is needed for salvation. As the inspired writers say;

"Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name". (John 20:30-31)

For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. (Romans 15:4)

These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.(1 John 1:4)

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)

2 Timothy 16.All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

17.so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Every doesn't mean some or even most. It means every,

Should I believe the Bible or you?

[Soninme]

I think that focusing on the scholarly debate about the authorship of various Biblical writings is an unnecessary distraction. It's a venture it the speculative, and isn't really discussing the more important matters

The weightier matter at hand is this: Soninme, do you believe that the Bible is the only written word of God?

Faded,

YES.

Do you believe that it is the only written word of God that can ever be?

God is God, He can do whatever He wants.

If you do believe that the Bible is the only written word of God and that there can never be anymore, what do you base that belief upon?

John 20:30-31 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. 1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

2 Peter 1:3-4 seeing that his divine power hath granted unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that called us by his own glory and virtue; whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in that world by lust.

Yes my favorite 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What more do we need scripture to tell us with regard to our eternal salvation?

You ask does the Bible say it's complete? What do these verses imply to you?

Does the Bible say it's incomplete? imperfect? insufficient? wait for more truth?

What did Jesus think of the Law and the Prophets?

Who did the New Testament writers think inspired their writtings?

Did they say it was incomplete? imperfect? insufficient?

It is not my intent (truly) to offend anyone but I can see that doubt HAS to be cast on the Bible if one doesn't take these (and other) verses at face value or if it says something we don't like.

It does matter what God-breathed means.

It does matter when charges of the "supposed deutero Isaiah" (you know, the part not written by Isaiah) are made by some. By the way rameumptom, John quotes Isaiah in John 12:37-38 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him; That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke, Lord, who hath believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? (see Isa. 53:1)

Also John 12:40-41 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spoke of him. Also Luke says Isaiah wrote Isaiah (Acts 8 28-30)

Faded, what do you think is missing from the Bible? (if anything)

[Faded]

John 20:30-31 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Since we're quoting from John, I must say I particularly like the last verse of the Gospel of John:

"25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

Faded, what do you think is missing from the Bible? (if anything)

You mean other than the 14 books that the Bible refers to directly which are not in the Bible today? As to that, which of the books of the Bible that we still have would you be willing to sacrifice?

What is clear to me is that more inspired writings existed. If we still had them, they would be scripture. Are you disputing that? Are you saying they would be of no value to us? Since we obviously don't have them today, we cannot possibly know what information was lost.

And all of the verses you quoted fail to do one simple thing: They do not tell us that the Bible is the only word of God and that there can't be anymore scripture. The Bible never says anything like that.

I appreciate the fact that you said "implied" when trying to say that these scriptures said what you wanted them to say. If you read enough into various passages of scriptures, you can make them "imply" just about anything you want them to.

But what do I take out of each passage?

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

An excellent definition of scripture, where it comes from and how it should be used. It teaches us how to live the way God wants us to. That sums up exactly what I take out of each of those passages. They all tells us, more or less, that scripture is a very good thing and it leads us to God.

So the more scripture we have the better we can live the way God intends us to live.

John 20:30-31 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. 1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Clearly John wishes he could have written everything that Jesus did, but is doing the best he can. His purpose in writing? To teach humankind where they are to look for salvation and eternal life.

2 Peter 1:3-4 seeing that his divine power hath granted unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that called us by his own glory and virtue; whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in that world by lust.

At the time of this writing, Peter and the apostles had "everything that pertained to life and godliness." No Latter Day Saint will dispute that. But did "all things that pertain to eternal life and godliness" survive when the apostles were killed off? Or were they an indispensable part of it?

None of the passages you've quoted say anything about the record of scripture being closed of course. All the verses that you quoted were written earlier than some other passages of scripture in the New Testament. So to the writer, the notion that scripture was continual and that more would be forthcoming -- that would have been pretty obvious to them. There was more to come when they wrote what they wrote.

If you're going to make the case that the scriptural record is closed, please tell me when it was closed. At what point was all further inspired writing proscribed and exactly how did God communicate this extremely important bit of information to humankind?

Edited March 30, 2010 by Faded

[Soninme]

Quote:

Faded, what do you think is missing from the Bible? (if anything)

You mean other than the 14 books that the Bible refers to directly which are not in the Bible today?

Faded,

is there a specific doctrine or teaching in one or more of those that is missing from the Bible and thus making it incomplete?

As to that, which of the books of the Bible that we still have would you be willing to sacrifice?

Why would we have to sacrifice scripture????

What is clear to me is that more inspired writings existed. If we still had them, they would be scripture. Are you disputing that? Are you saying they would be of no value to us? Since we obviously don't have them today, we cannot possibly know what information was lost.

Okay sure, if they were truly God-inspired then they obviously would be valuable, but with or without them the Bible still says we have all we need.

And all of the verses you quoted fail to do one simple thing: They do not tell us that the Bible is the only word of God and that there can't be anymore scripture. The Bible never says anything like that.

But again, it says ALL we need is contained in the scriptures. It also doesn't claim to be incomplete or insufficient.

Friend, what is missing? What was left out? This is extremely important!

I appreciate the fact that you said "implied" when trying to say that these scriptures said what you wanted them to say. If you read enough into various passages of scriptures, you can make them "imply" just about anything you want them to.

Sure, I guess all of us are capable of doing that. So then "line upon line, precept upon precept."

But what do I take out of each passage?

Quote:

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

An excellent definition of scripture, where it comes from and how it should be used. It teaches us how to live the way God wants us to. That sums up exactly what I take out of each of those passages. They all tells us, more or less, that scripture is a very good thing and it leads us to God.

So the more scripture we have the better we can live the way God intends us to live.

Just a thought I had when I read this, remember in Romans 7 where Paul knew the law and also knew it was good but still couldn't keep it? Also afterward in 1 Tim 1:15 he said "I am the chief of sinners". All the knowledge of scripture he had, and that was a lot, wasn't enough for him to measure up by his works. Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What more can we do than this- Mark 12:28 "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

Quote:

2 Peter 1:3-4 seeing that his divine power hath granted unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that called us by his own glory and virtue; whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in that world by lust.

At the time of this writing, Peter and the apostles had "everything that pertained to life and godliness." No Latter Day Saint will dispute that. But did "all things that pertain to eternal life and godliness" survive when the apostles were killed off? Or were they an indispensable part of it?

I don't understand.

Did the knowledge of God not "survive" after the apostles died?

Jesus said He would be with us always, even to the end of the age; and also the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against His church.

Friend, again what is missing from the Bible?

[Faded]

Faded,

is there a specific doctrine or teaching in one or more of those that is missing from the Bible and thus making it incomplete?

So are we to understand that books of scripture are expendable?

There are many doctrines that are not fully expounded in the Bible as currently constituted, which is why there are over 30,000 Christian denominations. Far too much is left to interpretation and guess-work.

Eternal marriage, eternal progression, a full understanding of the fall, a fuller picture of what will happen in the eternities. How is baptism to be performed? Should infants be baptized? How is the Holy Ghost received? What are the characteristics of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? These are all not fully expounded in the Bible.

Many have said it and I restate it now. We do not seek to destroy what you have. We seek to share with you what God has revealed in addition to what you already have.

Why would we have to sacrifice scripture????

There are 14 books of scripture missing from the Bible that we know of with 100% certainty. You seem to accept their loss as no big deal and no great loss. So I've got to wonder -- based on your logic above -- if you would accept additional losses without a care? Which books of the Bible are expendable?

You asked what is missing. I told you that at minimum, 14 books of scripture are missing. But you don't seem to care about them at all. I don't understand why.

Okay sure, if they were truly God-inspired then they obviously would be valuable, but with or without them the Bible still says we have all we need.

But again, it says ALL we need is contained in the scriptures. It also doesn't claim to be incomplete or insufficient.

Friend, what is missing? What was left out? This is extremely important!

You're equating "Scriptures" with "Bible." It doesn't say that.

But Bible never says, "The Bible is all we need." I know this is a commonplace Christian teaching. I've run into it countless times, and nobody has ever been able to demonstrate it as a Biblical teaching.

The strikes against this theory:

1.) There is chronology to the writings of the Bible. This means that for every verse pointed to, there is something that was written later. So in 2 Timothy, if Paul meant, "The Bible contains everything we need and there cannot be anymore" then this would make 2 Timothy the end of it, and there could be no more. That would invalidate most of the New Testament of course. So the popular practice of saying "it's implied that there can be no Bible in this verse" does not make any logical sense. This applies to each and every verse thus used.

2.) The Bible was not the Bible until approximately 300 years after the last writing in it. Before that, it was not compiled into a single "book". So none of the writers of the New Testament would have referred to "The Bible" as a single work, nor would they have "implied" that it was a complete work, since it wasn't finished nor was it compiled yet.

The debate will always be an endless one. Logic and quoting scriptures can never resolve it.

I have to ask Soninme have you bothered to consider how important out message would be to you and to everyone on this earth if it is true? Have you given it a chance to be true? Are you willing to give God a chance to tell you? Are you willing to accept God's will without stubbornness?

I know that this Church established by Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith is exactly what it claims to be. It is the Church of Jesus Christ, whole and complete, restored to us today. I cannot begin to tell you how deeply I know that to be true.

Are you willing to lay aside all else, set aside all your strong reasons why you think it cannot possibly be right, and just ask God if this is His work? He will not force you to open yourself to the possibilities. He will not force you to lay aside comfortable traditions. That is something you must do if you are to ever have a true answer from Him.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Faded

[Soninme]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soninme

Faded,

is there a specific doctrine or teaching in one or more of those that is missing from the Bible and thus making it incomplete?

So are we to understand that books of scripture are expendable?

Who says they are scripture? None were considered part of the Tanakh. There aren't any commentaries in the Talmud or anywhere that suggest a pivital piece of information or otherwise, was left out, or ignored by Jesus or a New Testament writer. Or is this a smokescreen to cast doubt in the sufficiency of the Biblical record so as to add to it's teachings?

If they contained something vital to salvation wouldn't one think that God would have preserved them for us as He did His God-breathed instructions? Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Eternal marriage, eternal progression, a full understanding of the fall, a fuller picture of what will happen in the eternities. How is baptism to be performed? Should infants be baptized? How is the Holy Ghost received? What are the characteristics of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? These are all not fully expounded in the Bible.

Sigh

Please consider these;

John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth: Whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: ye know Him; for He abideth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

1 John 5:10-13 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Math 5:6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled.

2 Corinthians 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Quote:

Why would we have to sacrifice scripture????

There are 14 books of scripture missing from the Bible that we know of with 100% certainty. You seem to accept their loss as no big deal and no great loss. So I've got to wonder -- based on your logic above -- if you would accept additional losses without a care? Which books of the Bible are expendable?

You asked what is missing. I told you that at minimum, 14 books of scripture are missing. But you don't seem to care about them at all. I don't understand why.

I'm sorry, "100% certainty"

This was at least interestingApologetics Press - Are There Lost Books of the Bible?

Quote:

Okay sure, if they were truly God-inspired then they obviously would be valuable, but with or without them the Bible still says we have all we need.

But again, it says ALL we need is contained in the scriptures. It also doesn't claim to be incomplete or insufficient.

Friend, what is missing? What was left out? This is extremely important!

You're equating "Scriptures" with "Bible." It doesn't say that

Okay,...... what is missing or left out of the scriptures that Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, Luke, Mathew etc. said have been written "so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God" and be "thoroughly equipped for every good work"?

But Bible never says, "The Bible is all we need." I know this is a commonplace Christian teaching. I've run into it countless times, and nobody has ever been able to demonstrate it as a Biblical teaching.

Imagine if in the last verse in the Bible it actually said that? Wouldn't the critics have a field day!!!!

Again, what did the New Testament writers think was missing?

Faded, honestly, do you get the impression from Paul, Peter, John, Luke etc. that they didn't "fully expound" on essential teachings?

No, they didn't mention at all eternal marriage and eternal progression, did they forget?

The debate will always be an endless one.

Yes, until Jesus comes back.

Logic and quoting scriptures can never resolve it.

Not without the Holy Spirit.

I have to ask Soninme have you bothered to consider how important out message would be to you and to everyone on this earth if it is true? Have you given it a chance to be true? Are you willing to give God a chance to tell you? Are you willing to accept God's will without stubbornness?

Are you willing to lay aside all else, set aside all your strong reasons why you think it cannot possibly be right, and just ask God if this is His work? He will not force you to open yourself to the possibilities. He will not force you to lay aside comfortable traditions. That is something you must do if you are to ever have a true answer from Him.

Do you mean should I deny all the Holy Spirit has taught and showed me, all the answered prayers, all the times I have felt His presense in me? Should I believe He falls short in revealing His plan to all people of all times? That His word has been, and possibly still is, incomplete?

Yes I completely understand the ramifications if what you say is true. I also, and I hope you do too, understand them if you are wrong. What if eternal progression is blasphemy?

So we should be like the Bereans. Acts 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

Also Isaiah 1:18 “ Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD,

“ Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[Faded]

Effectively, I asked if you would give the message of the Church of Jesus Christ a chance to be true and from God. I asked if you would lay aside all of your predetermined ideas, trust God completely and ask Him if this is His work.

You just effectively said no.

I think that any further conversation beyond that is pointless. I'm done with this debate.

[Moksha]

If they contained something vital to salvation wouldn't one think that God would have preserved them for us as He did His God-breathed instructions? Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Yeah, like there is any truth to that. Things get lost or left out all the time. Happens whenever there are any translations or redactions to be made. Think how the world was impoverished when all the books written at the time of the Nicaean creation of the official canon failed to be preserved. Think how unfortunate it is that the original texts were not copied exactly without any change due to interpretation or to make it come into agreement with prevailing dogma.

Think of how even the Jewish Talmud suffered by leaving out the Jewish works from Alexandria (Philo and others).

Think of the drain of knowledge that was allowed to happen across Christian Europe by turning away from much pre-Christian learning from the Greeks and other and the Great Library of Alexandria being burnt by Christian terrorists. This was a tremendous crime against Humanity.

[Soninme]

Effectively, I asked if you would give the message of the Church of Jesus Christ a chance to be true and from God. I asked if you would lay aside all of your predetermined ideas, trust God completely and ask Him if this is His work.

You just effectively said no.

I think that any further conversation beyond that is pointless. I'm done with this debate.

Faded,

I take the claims of all faiths seriously. I do understand what my end is if the Jehovah Witnesses are correct. Also if the Unitarians or Oneness Pentecostals or if Islam is correct.

The Bible warns us all to be sure we are truly Christians. 1 Corinthians 13:5 says "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!"

I believe the best way to know whether or not a teaching is from God is of course to pray. Math. 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. Also to search the Scriptures like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 "Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so".

I have enjoyed (truly) these conversations with you and agree that we are just going back and forth but going through the scriptures hasn't been a bad thing. Perhaps we will talk again. Thanks

[Soninme]

Originally Posted by Soninme

If they contained something vital to salvation wouldn't one think that God would have preserved them for us as He did His God-breathed instructions? Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

.

Yeah, like there is any truth to that. Things get lost or left out all the time. Happens whenever there are any translations or redactions to be made.

Moksha,

Am I understanding you correctly, are you saying Jesus words did pass away?

[Moksha]

Soninme, it is obvious that not everything that Jesus said was recorded. There has also been scholarly work to suggest that (just by comparing the four Gospels) that not everybody heard the same thing.

[Soninme]

Soninme, it is obvious that not everything that Jesus said was recorded. There has also been scholarly work to suggest that (just by comparing the four Gospels) that not everybody heard the same thing.

Okay, so what essential to salvation teaching was changed or left out of the Gospels or New Testament letters?

[Moksha]

Okay, so what essential to salvation teaching was changed or left out of the Gospels or New Testament letters?

Perhaps that part about white shirts or more than one pair of earrings?