Soninme

The reason I ask is because I see verses in the Bible that teach Jesus is fully or equal to God.Colossians 2: 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; Phil. 2 5-6 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” There can only be 1 Almighty. Thanks

As do I. As a Christian I certainly would strive to follow all the teachings of God and He promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. (John 16:3) Jesus also told us in Matthew 18:4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Also of John the Baptist; Matthew 11:11 “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Traveler, how do you think John was "greater" than all other men born up to that time? How are those who humble themselves and become the least "greater" in the kingdom? Does it have anything to do with thier nature?

Hello TravelerI believe Jesus was referring not to His "nature" as God but to His "rank" as Son. Just as I, who am a father of five have a higher rank, if you will, than my children yet we have the same nature. Phil 2 5-8 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. I have not.I do though see in that analogy that artificial intelligence only gets what is given to it. Just as what we receive from God.

Hello LaughingManIf this is true then was there at some point in the distant past, if you will, a time when the Son was not equal to the Father? If "They will continue to grow and progress just as we do" does this mean that you don't believe the Father or the Son are omnipotent, omnipresent and/or omniscient right now?What will they learn in the future? Thanks

Thank you for this PC, Life just makes no sense to me without Him, nor is there hope in anyone but the Lord. John 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

Amen

For me one of the big distinctions is that God, when speaking to man, always speaks of Himself in the singular,( "I", "Me", "My", etc.) never "We" or "Us" or "Our".When speaking to each other then "Us" "Our". A plurality of Persons within the Godhead yet a singular God to man. No Biblical writer ever refers to God in a plural form.(they, them, gods)

Ram If we continue that line of thinking then man is omniiscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. All those are qualities of God whos image we are made in. Also God then is capable of sin That God can appear to man in the form of a man is also in the Bible. Also the "Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon Him" (Luke 3:22) Yet if God "has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s" (D&C 130:22) - and ours is made in His image and likeness - then how is He omnipresent? How could He fill heaven and earth? Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see Him?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD.(Jer.23:24) 2 Chronicles 2:6 But who is able to build Him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain Him? who am I then, that I should build Him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before Him? As for God's throne, if I may, I am copying a previous answer I gave on this subject. Yes God has a throne. Solomon sat on it. 1 Chronicles 29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him. His throne is in the temple forever. Ezekiel 43:6-7 Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man stood beside me. And He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. Does the Bible teach a physical chair/throne? Isaiah 66:1 and Acts 7:49 Thus says the LORD:“ Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. Matthew 5:34-35 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; What is the throne made of? Ps. 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face. Dan 7:9 “ I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire; Surrounding the Throne are 24 other thrones. Also around the throne; Isaiah 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. The train of His robe. 2 Chronicles 18:18 Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right hand and His left. All the host of heaven - standing on both of His hands Rev 4:3 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,. The seven Spirits. Rev 4:5 And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. A rainbow that looked like an emerald. Rev 5:6 Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. A sea of glass and four living creatures full of eyes. Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands. Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,. Angels, creatures, elders and people in robes with palm branches too numerous to count. Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Also a river. God’s throne symbolizes power, dominion and rule. Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. Jeremiah 3:17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, Jeremiah 14:21 Do not abhor us, for Your name’s sake; Do not disgrace the throne of Your glory. Remember, do not break Your covenant with us. Jeremiah 49:38 I will set My throne in Elam, And will destroy from there the king and the princes,’ says the LORD. Luke 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. Thrones symbolize evil dominion also. Psalm 94:20 Shall the throne of iniquity, which devises evil by law, Have fellowship with You? Revelation 2:13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. Revelation 16:10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain. Thanks, I know this was long and I hate long posts.

In Gen 1:26 God says man was made in "Our image, after Our likeness" NOT just the image of the Father but also made in the image of the Son and Holy Spirit, and even in LDS teaching they did not have bodies of flesh and bone, so whatever is meant by image and likeness cannot be a physical body.

Hello Connie, My reading of Gen 1:26 is that we are "made" and God is not. God cannot sin and we/I seem to have no trouble. So for me the origin of it is Genesis 1. Thanks

Hello Judo Interesting thread. My thinking is the Bible is not just one witness but rather 40 witnesses writing 66 books. (Protestant:lol:) I would add to that the witness of creation and the witness of our conscience(Romans 1). Also the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:16 Heb 10:15) I believe as you do that feelings and experience are an inner witness also. Thanks

Why do I feel I have to vigorously defend the scriptures on this board? Why did God have prophets and apostles write down His word if it isn't of great eternal importance to Him and to us? Traveler, how do I know I am truely being loving and compassionate by the true God's standard if I DO NOT know the who true God is? (John 17:3) Yes, God has reaveled Himself in creation, in our hearts and minds and through the Holy Spirit but without scripture can you tell me His name? His Son's name? Did His Son take human flesh and die for us? Was He resurrected? Do we worship each other or Asherah or Baal or the false prophet or the beast or ......? The children of Israel had the Torah and later the writings of the Prophets and Psalms, they called it "the word of God", and were judged by them, as we will be. For sure! Isn't that what God expects us to do? He did after all give us the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth.(John 16:13) Unless we are like Moses, Abraham or Adam or Enoch and have direct revelation from God then how will we know the truth. Surely God can save someone without a Bible but is that all there is to salvation, intellectual consent? How does one grow in the wisdom of God without His wisdom which He gave in the scriptures? How did you find out you are a sinner in need of the Savior Jesus Christ? Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Or should we just not take it so seriously or even ignore it? May it never be.

Ram, For sure our beliefs are far apart. One likely reason this is not scripture is this is contrary to biblical truth. Rev 22:8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” Niether Enoch nor archangels are to be worshiped, the Bible, God's word, shows us the truth. . WOW:eek: Proverbs 1-9 is poetic in that it personifies wisdom. Wisdom is not literally God's wife Asherah who speaks eloquently about herself and prepares a banquet. Wisdom is a quality of the soul. The purpose of the entire eighth chapter is to praise and exalt wisdom. In conducting this praise, the writer invents a fictional creation story in which wisdom, as an attribute of God, was actually present at creation. Proverbs 3:19 tells us propositionally that “the Lord by wisdom founded the earth.” Proverbs 8 turns that statement into a fictional narrative in which a personified wisdom was present at the creation of the world. It is as simple as that. If wisdom is Asherah then who is prudence? (Prov. 8:12) If Asherah said; "counsel is mine...I am understanding", "I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me", Why does not even LDS speak of her? The Bible says Asherah was a Canaanite goddess and kings were right to remove and break thier high places. Clearly Asherah is an idol. A false diety. That the Bible has those who twist it was fortold by God so we should not be surprised. The question is though, of the people you have known with thier false beliefs, how could they come to the truth of scripture without scripture? Surely they have thier "confirmations" in thier heart but if it's false teachings then who confirmed it? Jesus appealed to scripture to answer Satan, what should we appeal to? Yet only if the BOM and modern prophets are in agreement with the Bible. Surley Jesus and the apostles warned us there would be many false teachers in the future. How are we to know without a God ordained standard with which to test them. 1 John 4:6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. Psalm 1 Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful; 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night. Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. For sure we will have to agree to disagree.

Ram, can I be assured that I am following the one true God without my Bible? How are we to know the truth from error without a standard of truth? The scriptures are exactly what Jesus appealed to for verification of who He was. The Bereans were called "more fair-minded" because they "searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so."(Acts 17:11) I believe they were more fair minded because they searched, not because they took it by faith and prayed only. I too believe one can be saved without the Bible, but without it one is at a serious disadvantage to say the least. Ps. 119:11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You.

annewandering, Not sure exactly what you are asking so please bear with me. The name "Jesus" was given at His birth (Luke 1:31) but He surely existed as Almighty God from all eternity along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Protestants and Catholics are in complete agreement that the one God is revealed to us in three distinct Persons. I referenced those verses in my last post but I will quote them here. Job 38:4“ Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? God asked Job "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?" All the sons of God (angels) were there for they shouted for joy. Why didn't Job? Job tells us why; Job 42:5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. Now Job understood. As for Abraham, Jesus said in John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; Jesus claimed to be the "I AM" or God Almighty before Abraham even existed. Zech 12:1 Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. So God created all things, which includes the spirits of man. Thanks

Justice, Except Jesus was God the Word (John 1:1) from everlasting (Micah 5:2) BEFORE He became flesh and dwelt among us.(John 1:14) Job did not exist at the creation of the world(Job 38:4) Nor did Abraham(John 8:58) Jesus is before all things (Colossians 1:17) This includes Job, Abraham, you and me. Yet conceived as a creative act by the Holy Spirit, (Matt 1:18) not the way we are. Yet no one takes His life from Him and no one raises themselves (John 10:17-18) Yet He did it in three days of His own power because He is God, always has been, and we are not. (John 2:19-21) All others who have died are still waiting to be resurrected. Isaiah 55:8-9 “ For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. “ For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. I see a distance of infinity between God who is holy and has never sinned and man who is exceedingly sinful.

CREO, Except Jesus was God before He came to earth so that can't be our way.

This parable nor any other teach that one can receive salvation after death. Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. I don't see it that way. Romans 1:18-23 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. All have a chance to respond to the light they are given. "for God has shown it to them."(verse 19) "His invisible attributes are clearly seen"- All are "without excuse"(verse 20) As for the "opportunities you and I have", "For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more."

Hi jayannaMy belief is that once I have truely placed my faith in Christ, my salvation, or my eternal destiny, is sealed. I know some may want to jump through thier computer screens right now but if I truely have faith then good works will follow. I like how PC said that works are; but works can never save me nor can they keep me saved, only true faith does that. Now every time I sin I grieve my God who bought me. The Holy Spirit convicts me and leads me to repentance. This is one proof that I am His. I am a sinful fallen man who has been redeemed by the Savior and until I receive a perfected glorified body I will continue to sin for that is my nature, but my salvation, I believe, is in His hands. (John 10:27-30) My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one. I will though grow stronger by the power of the Holy Spirit to sin less and less as I mature in Christ. The blessed assurance of my salvation is my greatest treasure. He is truely amazing. Thanks

Protestant theology as well. Heb. 9:27 tells me, judgement is after death, not after spirit prison or paradise.Luke 16:19-31 says the rich man died once and was judged to be in torment in Hades and could not come out even though he now knew/believed the truth. We Protestants (this one anyway) understand a non-believer at death does indeed go in spirit to hell because he is judged for not accepting the only payment (Jesus) for his sins, at the resurrection he is again judged, not for salvations sake but for the works he did while in the flesh, to determine, if you will, the level of torment. Hell is cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:14) Protestant theology as well, while one is still living.

alexm8, I am curious, in LDS teaching does anyone end up in Hell? Surely an all powerful God could easily make sure Hell was empty so unbelievers wouldn't think Him evil, yet what of those who refuse to repent? Heb. 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" See also Luke 16:19-31

Yes but also He was/is "the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;Is. 44:24) He, all by Himself, is the maker of all nations, all flesh, Heaven, earth, and just what it says, "all things." Who is this Yahweh who does all these things by Himself in the OT and now in the new doesn't do anything unless He first sees the Father do it?(John 5:19) Which God? If Yahweh then why did Jesus and Paul say the Father? (John 20:17)(1 Cor 8:6) If El Elyon then why did you claim Yahweh stated; If one now worships the Father then Yahweh was replaced and CANNOT claim; "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God" (Is. 44:6) My point is you are claiming 2 gods when the Bible claims only 1 God.

Ram, I don't mean to be contentious, we have only slightly touched on this in the past but I'm unclear as to how you arrive at this. Most if not all of the book of Isaiah is telling of how Yahweh/Jehovah is the one and only God. If .. we assume you are correct- He is the only God for the nation of Israel - then Jesus is telling us that it is in fact Him and Him alone who is the creator of all things; Is.44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" also there is no one besides Him; "Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." (Is.44:8) My point is He speaks of no other. Yet in the gospels, Jesus does not cease to speak of the Father and even calls Him the "only true God" and also His and Mary's God.(John 20:17) Even Paul, an Israelite, says the one God for us is the Father. (1 Cor 8:6) If the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are seperate beings -not only persons- then how could Jesus say He is the only God forever, "none would replace him" for the nation of Israel? Seems Jesus gives no credit to His Father in the OT yet all credit to Him in the NT. Thanks

phi39, Well said.

I would add that religion does not save, my attempts at being good does not save me because (Romans 3:10-12) As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” Acts 10:35 says one must fear Him - the true God (John 17:3). This can only be done through correct teaching and scripture. If we don't have that then our religion is useless. Our conscience doesn't save us if we don't come to the cross of the true God. We can't be good without God's guidance. (see Romans 3 also John 15:4-5) We are born in sin and if one does not seek after God -the true God - that is not His fault. That God condescends to save anyone shows He is a "good" and merciful God.