Soninme

I believe one can be saved without a word of scripture. Also if one is following fallible teachings (scripture) then one is therefore following error and cannot "be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." Shall we sin that grace may abound?

"that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works?"I believe requires that scripture be sufficient, trustworthy and authoritative or else how can one be sure. Col. 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth,. To me all means all. "visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Even before primordial matter. While these and other verses may not convince you that God creates out of nothing, I likewise don't see in the Bible the teaching that matter is eternal. Thanks

Justice For sure I am no scholar but something to consider; I don't know how many times the Pentateuch was copied since the original was lost, I suspect quite a few. I do know, besides the copying in Hebrew, it was translated into at least Aramaic and Greek from those copies and was quoted by Jesus Christ as authentic. He never mentioned copy errors or faulty translations. Also the Septuagint (Geek translation of the OT) was quoted by NT writers inspired by the Holy Spirit, therefore it certainly is possible for there to be an inspired correct copy not written in Hebrew. That being said, of course there can be bad translations. I don't at all believe the NWT used by the Jehovah's Witnesses is a good translation for various reasons that need not be discussed here, and very possibly others. We do however have an abundant number scholarly translations from reliable manuscripts that we can be very confident in. The implication that the BIble isn't enough because all the translations don't use the exact same words is nonsence. If you don't like or believe the KJV or NASB or NIV etc. then check what it says in the original languages and you translate it. A god who doesn't preserve its word yet expects us to obey it is not in charge. Sure, I admit that. I also admit that the Bible we have today is the holy word of God. Snow Jesus disagrees with you; Jesus quoted from Isaiah 29:13: “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; (Mark 7:6-7). Jesus also referenced Isaiah 42:1-4 in Matthew 12:17: “This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah.” Isaiah is also referenced in Matthew 8:16-17 by quoting Isaiah 53:4: “This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: ...(Matthew 8:17). Also several other New Testament verses refer to the prophet Isaiah as been the sole author: Matthew 3:3 and Luke 3:4 (Isaiah 40:3); Romans 10:16, 20 (Isaiah 53:1; 65:1); John 12:38-41 (Isaiah 53:1; 6:10). All those believed only Isaiah wrote Isaiah.

I see you ignored my question. If it is something you can honestly document then I will listen, if it is not then it's just a personal belief. Forgive me please,.... because the "heret" Isaiah used to write with was rendered "a man's pen" instead of "carving tool" "This caused several random mistranslations (like above) throughout the Old Testament"?! This is proof the Bible has errors But Justice, what if your interpretation of that prophecy is wrong? Or is it honestly possible that it doesn't mean what you claim and it is you that is changing it to better reflect your view? Ezekiel 37:22 clearly explains the prophecy of the two sticks; And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

Do you believe the Bible is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works? If yes then why bring it up, if not then the Bible is not the word of God. Ummm yet That sure does open the door for doubt though doesn't it. I am saying the Bible is authoritative to every subject to which it teaches because it is God's word. He commands that His words shall not depart from this time to forevermore! Isaiah 59:21 “As for Me,” says the LORD, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the LORD, “from this time and forevermore.” Why would He NOT preserve His word if He commands generations to keep His words for at least thousands of years? Please I am interested in your answer. Could you give examples of versions that are "textually different" as to change the meaning?

I just don't understand why our view of God's word would be contrary to His. Yes, imperfect sinful men physically wrote the words but Who's words were they? Deuteronomy 11:18 “Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes Deuteronomy 12:28 Observe and obey all these words which I command you, that it may go well with you and your children after you forever, Deuteronomy 33:9 ... For they have observed Your word And kept Your covenant. Psalm 119:11 Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You Psalm 119:42 So shall I have an answer for him who reproaches me, For I trust in Your word. Psalm 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path. Psalm 119:148 My eyes are awake through the night watches, That I may meditate on Your word Psalm 119:160 The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever. John 17:6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word John 17:17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 2 Peter 1:19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; Revelation 3:8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. Revelation 22:9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” Matt 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ I'm not buying the idea that the God who spoke and the universe leaped into existence and commands our obedience to His every word "For You have magnified Your word above all Your name" has left us with scripture that we can't trust. Our view should be the same one Jesus had; Matthew 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Isaiah 59:21 “As for Me,” says the LORD, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the LORD, “from this time and forevermore.” Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward Your holy temple, And praise Your name For Your lovingkindness and Your truth; For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.

I guess I don't understand, "theo" = God, "pneustos" = to breathe. What is the difference in saying "God-breathed" or "inspired of God"? I seriously doubt that Paul, Peter, James, John, Luke etc. thought for even one minute that the scriptures they had in their time had copying or translating errors even though the Pentateuch was "inspired" 1500 years before them, copied numerous times,(they didn't have the original either) and even translated into Greek. (Septuagint) The Septuagint was even quoted in the New Testament therefore you have a God-breathed translation. Why is it so hard to believe that God would preserve His Holy word? He expects us to divide truth from error by studying it. 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Psalm 1 Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful; But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night. Why would He require this of us if He had no intention of preserving His word? So much for the Holy Bible:confused:2 Tim 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Yes those "holy scriptures" that Jesus Himself quoted numerous times without reference to any copying or translation errors. 2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. How can anyone be "corrected, instructed in righteousness: perfected, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" if God does not or will not preserve his Holy word? “Your word, O Lord, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens” (Psalm 119:89).

From Justice; Forgive me, I missed how Mark 12:32 and for that matter the others quoted can be shown to be speaking of multiple Gods. How many Mediators?

So again, how many capitol "G" Gods are there according to the Bible?

Mark 12:28 Forgive me but I really don't see the scribe saying there is a multiplicity of unified Gods but rather there is one God (Being) in number and refers to that God as "He" (singular) not "them" (plural) This is a stretch. The Bible NEVER says there is only one man but many times says there is only one God.

I agree we are a spirit and we will exist after death, until the resurrection, without a physical body. Not sure what the Holy Spirit looks like in the LDS view or for that matter Satan and other angels who are "ministering spirits", (Heb. 1:7) for spirits don't have the things you mentioned. Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” Not sure what you mean here. God, Who is Father , Son and Holy Spirit, is Spirit (John 4:24) and is neither male nor female.Adam was made in the image of God from the dust of the ground, Eve was made from Adam’s rib and so is also made in the image of God.

So true.

Just a thought;Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? We may call ourselves Christians but all that really matters is if Jesus would call us one.

Juan_PYes, I understand that to be the LDS view, my point is that Gen 1:26 God clearly says man was made in "Our image, after Our likeness" NOT just the image of the Father but also the in the image of the Son and Holy Spirit, and they did not have bodies of flesh and bone, so whatever is meant by image and likeness cannot be a physical body. That is implied in your view but as you say nowhere is a heavenly mother mentioned in any scripture. Scripture in many places though does tell us that in fact Jesus created all things (John 1:3) (Col. 1:16-17) etc. and surely had to be one of the "Us" mentioned in Gen 1:26 Who"s image you and I are made in. Thanks

mnn727How do you see it?

Which christ?

From PC PC Just so you know, I think you give great answers and I enjoy your kind spirit and will not pretend to speak for you. Having said that, you meant separate Persons, one Being, correct?

Justice, these are 2000 year old arguements. Yes, there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. Philippians 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Note He made Himself (voluntarily) of no reputation, or as Hebrews 2:7 puts it "You have made Him a little lower than the angels" so, in that position, yes, the Father was higher in rank yet, because He humbled Himself- Phil 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. In context;John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” No one can snatch them from Either's hand. Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Please answer, How many Almighties are there?

You got me, I can't find that anywhere. "one" what? That is what PC and I said.From PC From me Note, "that they also may be one(unified) in us" NOT "LIKE" US Did you forget about the one God, the First and the Last, of Isaiah 44:6-8 Whom LDS refer to as Jesus? Mark 12:32 “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.

Justice I don't see your point. When LDS say "the Godhead is one" do you mean the Godhead is one person or one being or one in unity?(unified) (like minded) (single will) (on the same page) (have same purpose) etc. Of course you mean unity. Trinitarians also believe the Godhead is unified and verses such as these show that. Try substituting "one" with "unified" and see if that helps. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, (unified) as we are. (unified) 21 That they all may be one(unified); as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one(unified) in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one(unified), even as we are one(unified): 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one(in unity); and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Christians as God's image bearers should be unified or of one accord as Christ taught us; John 13:35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” Phil 1:1-5 Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,... It is only because the Spirit of God dwells in us (Rom. 8:9-11) that we can do His will. That is what Jesus prayed for us in John 17:23, I (Christ) in them (Rom 8:9) thou in Me (2 Cor 5:17) "that they also may be one in Us" NOT "like" Us Seriously, is it your understanding that Trinitarians believe somehow the Godhead and all believers will all be the one God? Is that how LDS interpret these verses? Will you be one in being with God? The Persons of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, indwell believers as Jesus prayed they would in John 17. Father - 2 Cor 6:16 Son - Col 1:27 Holy Spirirt - John 14:17

This completely ignores the statement that man was made "in Our image after Our likeness.Gen 1:26 clearly does not say man was created in the image and likeness of the Father only. Whatever the image and likeness may be it MUST be the image and likeness of the Persons doing the creating. The BIble tells us Who the Creator is; God - Genesis 1:1 The Father -Isaiah 64:8 But now, O Lord, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand. Jesus -John 1:3 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. The HolySpirit- Job 33:4 “The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life. God by Himself - Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by Myself; Since we are made in the image and likeness of our Creator and as you agree "the Son had not yet taken on mortal flesh" then whatever is meant by being made in the image of God CANNOT mean a physical body because even in the LDS view only one member of the godhead had a body when Adam was made. As for Seth being born after Adam's image and likeness, Adam was made sinless, Seth was born in sin.

Yes God has a throne. Solomon sat on it. 1 Chronicles 29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him. His throne is in the temple forever. Ezekiel 43:6-7 Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man stood beside me. And He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. Does the Bible teach a physical chair/throne? Isaiah 66:1 and Acts 7:49 Thus says the LORD:“ Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. Matthew 5:34-35 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; What is the throne made of? Ps. 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face. Dan 7:9 “ I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire; Also around the throne;Isaiah 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. The train of His robe. 2 Chronicles 18:18 Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right hand and His left. All the host of heaven - standing on both of His hands:o Rev 4:3 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,. The seven Spirits. Rev 4:5 And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. A rainbow that looked like an emerald. Rev 5:6 Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. A sea of glass and four living creatures full of eyes. Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands. Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,. Angels, creatures, elders and people in robes with palm branches too numerous to count. Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. Also a river. God’s throne symbolizes power, dominion and rule. Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. Jeremiah 3:17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, Jeremiah 14:21 Do not abhor us, for Your name’s sake; Do not disgrace the throne of Your glory. Remember, do not break Your covenant with us. Jeremiah 49:38I will set My throne in Elam, And will destroy from there the king and the princes,’ says the LORD. Luke 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. Thrones symbolize evil dominion also. Psalm 94:20 Shall the throne of iniquity, which devises evil by law, Have fellowship with You? Revelation 2:13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. Revelation 16:10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain. The chief context of Acts 7, specifically 37-56 is the identity of Jesus not the physicality of God. They were just mad at Stephen until he said he saw Jesus standing at the right hand God. Then they stoned him. They knew Stephen meant Jesus had what He claimed in Matt 28:18 “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth". Thanks

Justice You continue to use modalistic definitions to explain the relationship of the Father and Son. They are not the same person, Jesus is NOT "a manifestation of God in the flesh" nor "one part of the holy three manifested in the flesh." Every trinitarian I am aware of on this site has said that position is false. You are beating a dead horse. In Peter's confession of faith "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" yes, Jesus commended him. He made the claim explicitly, and His hearers got the full impact of His words. John 5:18 says, "The Jews tried all the harder to kill Him; not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." Jesus also said, "I and My Father are One." Immediately the Jews wanted to stone Him. He asked them for which good work they wanted to kill Him. The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” (John 10:33) Volgadon is correct; Son of God = God.Again the Bible says there is only one God in number yet the Father is called God the Son is called God and the Holy Spirit is called God. Rom. 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

I think I understand the LDS position on the creeds (Nicene, Athanasian etc.) as in the first vision Joseph Smith was told by the Lord that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight.Seems clear that all who profess to be LDS must therefore reject the Trinity at every turn. If I may, maybe it would help if we didn't use the word "Trinity" and forgot about any creed and just read the scriptures and see what they teach.How many Gods (capitol "G") does the Bible say there are? Clearly we all know that no biblical writer, not even once, refers to the Godhead as "the Gods" or "the Lords" or "the Spirits" or "they" "them" etc. but as God. Mark 12:32 "for there is one God, and there is no other but He". Note; 1 God in number and is referred to as "He" not them. The Bible says there is only one true God, (John 17:3) one wise God, (1Tim 1:17) one Almighty God, (Rev 1:8) only one God Who is to be worshiped. (Matt 4:10) I could go on and on but it seems clear to me that the Bible says there is only one capitol "G" God. Therefore if I was told there are 3 Gods or 3 Lords or 3 Spirits then that would be something I must clearly reject as false because no prophet or apostle has ever referred to the Godhead that way. Now the Bible states the Father is God (1 Cor. 8:6) the Son is God (John 1:1) and the Holy Spirit is God. (Acts 5:4) Jesus says He is a witness and His Father is another (John 8:17-18) and the Helper or Holy Spirit, Who is also a "He", is sent by the Father in Jesus name. (John 14:26) When the Father, Son and Holy Spirit speak to each other they use plural terms such as "us" and "our" (Gen 1:26 3:22) and "We". (John 17:11) So I would conclude that those three are NOT the same "person" for a lack of a better word. What is said of the Father is also said of the Son, for instance the Father is Almighty God (Rev 4:8) and the Son is also Almighty God.(Rev 1:8) One should ask; how can there be 2 Almighty Gods? The Father is eternal (Ps 90:2) the Son eternal (Micah 5:2) the Holy Spirit eternal. (Heb 9:14) The Father is worshiped (Matt 4:10) the Son is worshiped (Matt 2:11) worshiped together(Rev 5:13-14) Each indwells those who are His; the Father(2 Cor 6:16) the Son(Col 1:27) the Holy Spirit.(John 14:17) Except we aren't indwelt by 3 gods but rather one; "For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “ I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.” (2 Cor 6:16) Many more examples could be given but the Bible says there is one and only one God yet there are three "Persons" Who are called God. If we don't like the creeds then fine but how would you define that teaching if someone said Jesus is created or the Holy Spirit is just a force and not God?

As a Trinitarian I have also asked that question. How can one be expected to completely comprehend the incomprehensible God in order to qualify for salvation? Of course put in that way it doesn't make sense to me. My thought is that (and I could be wrong) it is one thing to say I don't understand the Trinity and clearly another to say I don't believe in it. If the Trinity is the truth of God and one denies that then isn't that person rejecting the truth? If the Trinity is false and one accepts it as God's truth then that persons belief is false. PC asked; How can one be saved who places his faith in a false christ. I believe the Bible says he can't. To be saved one must be "born again". (John 3:3) Only the true God can do that. Who God is is of vital importance in my opinion, we must not be wrong. Thanks