Soninme

How is this understood in the LDS view?

MrShorty You and me both, but I hope we keep trying :) Yes, we do use those terms as equivalents but to be accurate we probably shouldn't. Allow me to muddy the water some more. Definition of Being 1 a: the quality or state of having existence b (1): something conceivable as existing (2): something that actually exists (3): the totality of existing things. So a bear and fish are beings, that would be what they are but we wouldn't properly say bears and fish are persons. I believe within the one being of God there are three eternally distinct Persons because the Bible says there is only one God yet the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. No biblical writer uses the phrase 3 Gods. Thanks

I believe eternal life is taught as obviously quantitative in that it lasts forever and ever, yet also qualitative or a quality of life. As I said before humankind was created in the image of God. God is spirit. (John 4:24) We are created spirits and as such we will exist to eternity. We are also given a physical body that will some day die but our spirit will continue forever either in the presence of God or not. (Matt. 25:46) (Rev.20:10) Thanks

Now Justice, why would you say I said something I didn't and quote only part of what I said when in your own post #66 you yourself quoted my exact words that clarified my statement? This is what I said; Note I finished with (From eternity). If a being has a starting point or is created, then unless you use new math, that being cannot exist from eternity past, or "always existed". "Created/made" and "always existed" are opposites. Okay, if something becomes then there has to be a time when it was not, correct? Yes, we were created or became, if you will, (Gen. 1:26) and now we will exist to eternity. I guess I should have been more clear and said only God is from eternity but He has made mankind to exist to eternity. Okay. Yes, if by "succeeding eternities" you mean to the eternities, because if it's "created" then it cannot have existed from eternity.

Please show me where I said this. No. Only God is "from" eternity, meaning He and only He DID NOT have a beginning. There never was a time when He was not. I had a beginning, there was a time when I was not, but now that I have been created I will not have an end. That is the "to" eternity. If I was to draw a line starting here to eternity the line would have no end but it did start right here did it not? Gen.1:26 “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" We were "made/created"(had a starting point before which we did not exist) in the image of God. God is spirit. We are made a spirit/being and as such we will exist to all eternity. I don't know how to make it any more clear.

MrShortyI was asking about Elder McKonkie. I believe as DrT does and don't read anywhere in the Bible where the Godhead is referred to as "they" or "them" or "the Gods". I just think if we are to view the Godhead as "three Gods" as McConkie and Joseph Smith teach then a biblical prophet or apostle would have done the same. No problem. As I have said before I am no expert and I don't understand everything I know. I believe the Bible teaches God has revealed Himself as one in essence or substance (being), but three in subsistence (personhood). In terms of what God is (essence), God is one; in terms of who God is (subsistence), God is three eternally distinct Persons, which would rule out Modalism because the Father is always the Father, the Son is always the Son and the Holy Spirit is always the Holy Spirit from eternity past to eternity future. (Psalm 90:2) Confusion comes from equating "Being" and "Persons". It has been said God is "one What" and "three Whos" "Being" would be the "what" (God) and "Persons" would be the "who"( Father, Son, Holy Spirit). Hope that helps. Thanks

I don't think anyone means to contradict themselves. I just wonder how there can be one God and three Gods. "Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No." (Alma 11:28-29) Many biblical writers weren't professionally trained theologians with.... either.

Justice and Snow This was the comment I was answering from post #5, especially the bolded part Now I believe God, Who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is the self-existent uncaused Cause of all that is. Whatever is/was or could ever be created could not possibly be self-existent or from eternity past as God is. I guess I could have been more clear than just putting it in parentheses I believe I have a beginning and have not existed from eternity but I will exist for eternity either in the presence of God or out of it.Snow Do you believe God has a beginning?

Hello SnowThe quotes from Nephi, Mosiah, Alma, Moses, ... not to mention James, Paul, Mark,(not listed) etc. I find no contradiction to one God, three Persons. However, I will add to McConkie's statement some from Joseph Smith. Also I find those statements and those you gave from the BOM to be contrary. Anyone else?Thanks

MrShortyDo you agree with this view? I agree. Just for fun, my thought though on post #5; If something or someone is created then it/they "CANNOT" be eternal because they in fact had a beginning. So no, God can't create a being equal to Himself. That creation wouldn't/couldn't be eternal. (From eternity) Thanks

I agree but how do you get that from Gen. 1:26? Then in your view, Who is speaking on Whose behalf in Is. 44:6-8?

Woops, and I didn't even have to take my shoes off. That is the point of my question. If Jesus is the one Being/God for Israel, of which He knows of no other,(Is. 44:8) why would Paul, an Israelite, say the one God is now the Father?(1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father) Where do you get 2 Beings? To reveal more about Himself.

Jesus in the NT does not cease to mention and praise the Father yet in Isaiah - I am referring especially to 43:10 " Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me" and 44:8 "Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one’” - He makes no mention of His Father. So Who is the one God for us? Jesus because of Isaiah 43:10 or the Father because of 1 Cor 8:4? Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father,. Thanks

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another,. John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. Gen. 1:26 “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; John 17:11 "that they may be one as We are." Just to name a few.

volgadonWhat does it mean to you, why would the prophet word it that way? Who "father" is is not the emphasis of my question but rather, "one". Why did Malachi not say, for instance, "hath not "the Gods" or "the Lords" or "..... plural form" created us? When God speaks to men or a biblical writer speaks of God why does he always use a singular connotation yet when the Father and Son speak to each other they use plural terms? Thanks

Why do you ask? Are you implying Abraham is the subjectt of Mal. 2:10?

If you are asking me then I think it means "Abraham our father"

I certainly agree there can be many interpretations of Elohim in Genesis 1:1 and elsewhere and for sure I am no part of a expert. My thought though is whenever God speaks to us He uses a singular word to refer to Himself ( I, My, Me etc.) and when He speaks to the other Persons of the Godhead He uses a plural form (our, us, we). (Gen 1:26) (Is. 6:8)(John 17:11) I don't see in the scriptures any writer referring to the Godhead as "they" or "them" or "the Gods" or any other plural form, only in the singular. Mal. 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? So, my opinion, one Father in number, one creator God in number. I understand others will see it differently. Thanks

From Justice My answer would be that the three Persons of the Godhead did the creating and the One Being of God did it alone all by Himself.Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: “ I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself; Thanks

If I may ask from a non-LDS perspective; Jesus was God the Word in the beginning (John 1:1) before He became flesh (John 1:14), so was that the path of the father in your view?It seems the fathers path, in my understanding, was man first then God. Thanks

I don't understand what you mean. I believe these are anthropomorphisms or personifications that reveal God to us in ways we can understand. God is also said to have feathers and wings. (Ps 91:4) (Ps. 57:1)Also John 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me".... If the Father has a physical body then how could He dwell within Jesus? Yes , but the verses I quoted before says He really is everywhere present. I didn't say that He did. Well I guess His scenery would be different but then, no, since He in fact created time and is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient, then He would see the end from the beginning (Is. 46:10). No matter what part of eternity we talk about He is the "I AM". Okay I confess I don't understand all that I know :unsure:about eternity. I just don't see how any of God's attributes would change because He created something. Nothing can be added to God to make Him more majestic or knowlegable or more anything. There has to be an uncause cause of all that is. An infinite regression of causes doesn't answer the question of sourse; it merely makes the effects more numerous. But God is the first and the last. Is. 44:6 “ Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘ I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Is. 55:9 “ For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. My friend you are right, I don't understand eternty either. Thanks

Hello jdf135What is your understanding of Isaiah 43:10? “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. and 44:6-8 “ Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘ I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, Since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, Let them show these to them. Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.’” I am not aware of any reputable translation that renders Genesis 1:1 as "the "gods" created the heaven and the earth"? Thanks

Hello JusticeTo clarify, I'm unsure of the LDS view but the Bible says God is Omnipresent. (present everywhere) The Father (1 Kings 8:27) The Son (Matt 18:20) (28:20) The Holy Spirit (Psalm 139:7-10) The Father is from eternity. (Ps. 90:2) The Son is from eternity. (Micah 5:2) The Holy Spirit is from eternity. (Heb 9:14) They were not alone. Since God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient, why would exercising His attributes make Him change? Surely an eternal all-knowing God would know from eternity what would happen to eternity. How would He be more or less God before or after creating the heavens and the earth and all things in them? Malachi 3:6 “I the LORD do not change. Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?” We can have eternal life because God has given it to us. If God had a beginning then it was given to Him by a god He says does not exist. If God had a god, had a god etc. there would still need to be, somewhere in eternity past, the One God who is Himself uncaused. The uncaused cause of the universe. I believe He is the One spoken of in Psalm 90:2; " Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. Thanks

Ram Did I misunderstand you? Do you have a scriptural reference that "Jewish-Christians were expected to live the law of Moses"? or that they were/are saved (my term) differently than Gentile Christians?

I guess I am stirring the pot but Paul clearly says if one doesn't preach the true gospel or preaches a different Jesus then "let him be accursed". False teachings about God and His ways were punishable by death in the OT. (Deut 13) (Deut 18:20) Now we don't stone false teachers today but remember what Jesus said of the teachings of the Scribes and Pharisees, calling them "whitewashed tombs" "blind guides" and "hypocrites". False teachings are what separate people from God now and for eternity, if that's not an abomination what would be? 2 Corinthians 11: 1 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it! Galatians 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.