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Soninme

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  1. Soninme
    jlf9999Not sure why you won't answer.... but I won't tell you what I think He said, I will quote Him. Matt.4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Matt 4:7 "It is written again, Matt 4:10 "for it is written.. John 10:35 "and the scripture cannot be broken; John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. There are many more. Heaven and earth have not yet passed. This is vastly different from your assertion; Now, why don't you tell me what you think Jesus said of the scriptures
  2. Soninme
    From Bart Ehrman; Moses did not write the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament) and Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did not write the gospels…the exodus probably did not happen as described in the Old Testament. The conquest of the Promised Land is probably based on legend…its hard to know whether Moses actually existed and what, exactly the historical Jesus taught. The historical narratives of the Old Testament are filled with legendary fabrications and the book of Acts in the New Testament contains historically unreliable information…” Ehrman, Jesus Interrupted, 5-6. jlf9999 Do we really want to read a book by this "true academic"? Please, what did Jesus think of the scriptures? Shouldn't we think as He did?
  3. Soninme
    There it is again.... And then.. jlf9999 What did Jesus think of the scriptures? What proof do you have that shows the OT, the 4 gospels, and the writings of the apostles in the Bible are "chock full" of error?
  4. Soninme
    Where do you see that in Phil 2:6 ? "who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God". It clearly says Christ had God's "form" (nature) He was exactly like God. He also (verse 7) took the "form" (nature) of a servant. He was exactly like a servant. It even says He already was equal with God. Occam's Razor indeed. Phil 2:1 (Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, 2 fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. 4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,") I see the context here as one of unity through humility, not of becoming as God is. I believe the Bible is clear when God says He's always been God and there is no other? What of the teaching from LDS prophets that the Father was once a man "like us"? Except that the Son (Word) was God BEFORE He became flesh and dwelt among us, so we can't follow that path. Has Christ sinned that He has need to receive grace? Chapter and verse please. I don’t recall this in the BOM. The Bible teaches that Jesus is the creator of ALL things. John 1:3 Colossians 1:16-17 Heb. 1:10 Okay…… but consider Those who follow Him have been saved from eternal misery. I’m sure that whatever God has planned for me will be beyond my wildest imaginations. I for one am eternally grateful.
  5. Soninme
    ram I don't understand why you would make such a statement. John 1:14 says "the Word became flesh". Phill 2: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:. Jesus, "being in the form of God", or the same form as the Father and the Holy Spirit, prior to the incarnation, (spirit, no body of flesh and bones) then "took upon Himself" an added nature, that of a man. You state yourself that; Does one go from almighty God to godman to then "fully divine"? Was that the path of the Father in LDS teaching? Except you haven't answered Psalm 90:2 "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. Volgadon suggests that Does that suggest that God is only God until the end of the age:confused:I am no Hebrew expert but for what it's worth, Strong's Number: 5769 "olam"always, ancient time, any more, continuance, eternal, for, everlasting, long time, Or lolam {o-lawm'}; from alam; properly, concealed, i.e. The vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always -- alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). From NAS exhaustive concordance Definition long duration, antiquity, futurity NASB Word Usage ages (1), all successive (1), always (1), ancient (13), ancient times (3), continual (1), days of old (1), eternal (2), eternity (3), ever (10), Everlasting (2), everlasting (110), forever (136), forever and ever (1), forever* (70), forevermore* (1), lasting (1), long (2), long ago (3), long past (1), long time (3), never* (17), old (11), permanent (10), permanently (1), perpetual (29), perpetually (1). I don't see "either an age or a world. The usual construct was from age to age". One would have to read that into the text. Please note, I have quoted no creed or philosopher just scripture and Hebrew dictionaries. Thanks
  6. Soninme
    Hello jayannaI was merely referring to this; No He isn't like us, but those who are "born again" will regain the fullness of that image; "But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord" (2 Cor. 3:18) I agree that in His humanity He was tempted, but I believe the Bible says He has two natures. They aren't the same person.Again as man Jesus would grow in wisdom,... not know the day and hour of His return etc... Phil 2:5 "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross".. When He became man Jesus voluntarily relinquished the prerogative of freely exercising His divine attributes and subjected Himself to the will of the Father while on earth. (John 5:30, 6:38, 8:28-29, 12:49) As God while also on earth He would say "I and the Father are one" and receive worship (John 9:38) (Matt 2:11 and 8:2) Hope this helps. Thanks
  7. Soninme
    Do you have examples? This could also be said of you, but this will get us nowhere. I agree with you the Bible was; But we should certainly start with scriptures first and see what they say.Do you have a biblical reverence for the Father being a man "like us" and Jesus being once just an "intelligence" and they both progressed to Godhood? Or even a BOM reference? My point is; "God cannot be tempted by evil" (James 1:13) That part is clear. Therefore I have nothing to show you. Only Man is tempted. I believe He never surrendered His divinity. How does God cease to be God? He was God before He "became flesh"(John 1:1) God while He was flesh (John 1:14) He is both the Son of God and the Son of man.Thanks
  8. Soninme
    volgadon I believe the Bible to be the word of almighty God, using biblical illustrations is how you will convince me. Does the BOM teach this? (just curious) I thought I was reading the Bible. Jesus is God the Word.(John 1:1) The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.(John 1:14) The incarnation.In His divinity we say " God cannot be tempted by evil" (James 1:13) in His humanity He was. (Matt 4:1) Yet without sin. (Heb 4:15) Just a note to the tempting; Matthew 4:8 "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me". Jesus knows Who He is right.(The Creator of all the devil is showing Him) It already belongs to Jesus, He (Jesus) knows its not the devil's to give. How is that a temptation for His divinity? It's like me saying "I will let you have the computer that you are reading this on if you will worship me" Forgive me but do LDS now believe Jesus wasn't a god until the ressurrection? John 1:1 and Micah 5:2 as quoted before says Jesus was God from from all eternity, not "as a result of what he did on earth" Thanks
  9. Soninme
    Hello volgadonWe disagree. Except that He says He is "from everlasting to everlasting" (Ps. 90:2) and " Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!”. (Rev. 4:8)1000 gozillion million years ago He is the One “Who was and is and is to come!” I believe His humanity was tempted but not His divinity. Which verse/s are you referring to? The Bible says Jesus has been God from all eternity. (John 1:1) (Micah 5:2)Thanks
  10. Soninme
    RamTo me, they are very different. The God of the Bible has been God from all eternity. (Psalm 90:2) The god of LDS was once a man "like us" capable of sin, and progressed to Godhood. The biblical Jesus has been God from all eternity. (John 1:1) (Micah 5:2) The Jesus of LDS first existed as an "intelligence" then progressed to Godhood. The biblical Jesus is the Creator of Lucifer, you, and me. (John 1:3) The Jesus of LDS is Lucifer, yours, and my spirit brother. Clearly not the same God. We are to worship in spirit and in truth.(John 4:24) Thanks
  11. Soninme
    jlf9999My confusion with "Christ created the world at the direction of The Father" is that Isa. 44:24 clearly says the "LORD" [strongs concordance #3068 Yehovah,(the) self-Existant or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:-Jehovah, the Lord.] formed you, makes all things, streches out the Heavens, and spreads abroad the earth, all alone, by Myself"; which surely implies to me that 1 Being (God) is responsible for creation. One god creating at the direction of another doesn't follow the text nor does it fit with Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power,"... The bolded part says The Father did the creating through Jesus. Yet again though, the Father adds; Hebrews 1:10 “ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. This tells us Jesus did it! Hebrews and Isaiah could be contradictory except for the Trinity. The one almighty God created all things all alone, by Himself.
  12. Soninme
    jlf9999Could you please clarify. Do you actually worship Jesus? Why or why not? Who is speaking in Isaiah 44:24? Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;Thanks
  13. Soninme
    jlf9999 Catholics, Protestants, etc. and LDS all believe Christ can speak as a member of the Godhead. None of us believe He is God the Father. That belief is called Modalism, ( which was accuratley defined by JasonJ in a previous post) and is considered false by "traditional Christians". I understand how you and LDS can believe the Godhead is 3 Gods, 1 in purpose and mind. My question to you though is, and please bear with me as I really want to know; who do you personally worship? Remember "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve. (Matt 4:10) (Deut 6:13) "It is the Lord your God you shall fear. Him you shall serve and by his name you shall swear" (Deut 6:15) "for the Lord your God in your midst is a jealous God". Before you answer please consider my previous post where Jesus is said many times to have received worship without rebuking those who did. Note Who Thomas said was his "Lord and God" (John 20:28) If we worship God the Father only then we are not with those in Revelation 5:11-13 who are worshiping the Father and the Son. Also consider Isaiah 45:22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn, My mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before Me every knee will bow; by Me every tongue will swear. Compare Phil 2:10 "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father". We both agree we are NEVER told to worship 2 Gods. I submit to you to reconsider the teaching that God is not only one in "purpose and mind" but also one in Being; For; (John 4:24) God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth.” Thanks
  14. Soninme
    Okay, but my confusion is still "if" Isaiah understood there are 3 distinct Gods, why would he say the Father was the only true one? The Bible disagrees;Jesus own words "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve. (Matt 4:10) See also Rev (22:8-9) (19:10) (Matt) 8:2 - A leper came and worshipped Jesus. [9:18; 15:25; Mark 5:6] (Matt 14:33) Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped Him, saying, Of a truth Thou art the Son of God. (John 9:38) And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped Him. (Matt 28:9) And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held Him by the feet, and worshipped Him. (Luke 24:52) And they worshipped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: (Hebrews 1:6) The Father speaking. And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him. (Rev 5:11) And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped Him that liveth for ever and ever. Doesn't a son have the same nature as his father?See John 8:58 and John 1:1 Also note the Father calls Him God. (Heb 1:8) But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom. Agreed:)
  15. Soninme
    Hey jayanna Note when the Persons of the Godhead speak to each other they use "us" and "our". When God speaks to us He ALWAYS says "I". Thanks
  16. Soninme
    jlf9999If capitol "G" God is refering to the Father only, then what of Jesus capitol "G" (John 1:1) and the Holy Spirit capitol "G" (Acts 5: 3-4) since, as you say, they are three distinct beings/Gods? Isa. 44:6 I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isa. 44:8 Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. If Jesus is speaking "as the voice of the Godhead" and "they are three distinct beings" Wouldn't He have better said "We are the first, and we are the last; beside us there are no Gods" and "Is there Gods beside me? yea, we know not any.? Thanks
  17. Soninme
    Should this be moved to the Trinity thread?
  18. Soninme
    Hello JasonThis is a great question and I will do my best to answer as biblically as I can. Please bear with me as I'm no scholar and won't pretend to be. We humans do use the words "being" and "person" interchangeably as you said and I can see why it's confusing. I believe the Bible tells us that God is a different "species" if you will, than humans.(Num. 23:19) (Hosea 11:9) The Bible tells me there is only One (1) and only ever will be One (1) Who is of that "species" or "nature" or "being" (for a lack of better words). Evidently in the "species" that is called God, there is a "plurality of personages" (again, for the lack of a better term) within that "nature" "being" etc." We see in scripture that God created the heavens, the earth, and all things by Himself (Isa. 44:24) yet also says the Father did it; (Isa. 64:8) the Son did it; (John 1:3) (Col. 1:15-17) and the Holy Spirit did it. (Job 33:4 and 26:13) One God 3 Personages created the heavens and the Earth. God raised Jesus from the dead yet scripture says the Father did it (1 Thess. 1:10) and Jesus raised Himself (John 2:19 and 10:17) and the Holy Spirit did it. (Rom 8:11) 1 God 3 Persons raised Him from the dead. More examples could be shown. I believe also that it is beyond the ability of man to comprehend the essential nature of God. From Charles Welch; God has condescended to limit Himself to the capacity of our understanding, to employ terms that are within our cognizance, and above all to tell us that all we can hope to know of Himself, during the present life, will be learned as we see His glory in the face of Jesus Christ. In all our acquisition of knowledge the mind is comparing, contrasting, labelling and drawing conclusions. Into what category must we place God? He is Spirit. What do we KNOW of the conditions and modes of a life that pertain to pure Spirit? Just nothing. An infant on its mother's knee could more readily be expected to grasp the meaning of the fourth dimension than a man can be expected to understand the nature of Infinite Being. God has no COMPEER, therefore there is nothing with which we may COMPARE Him. We are halted at the start. He has no equal. To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto Him? (Isa. 40:18). To whom then will ye liken Me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One (Isa. 40:25). To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal, and compare Me, that we may be like? (Isa. 46:5). For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD? (Psa. 89:6). God is and must be incomparable. Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? (Job 11:7). I can certainly get one not understanding the Trinity, but problems come when denying the Trinity. Much more can/needs to be said but I stink at typing. Thanks
  19. Soninme
    Agreed, I believe one should consider all the Bible has to say on a subject. Isaiah 44:6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. Then are you saying that the Isaiah passages quoted are refering to God the Father only?Thanks
  20. Soninme
    jlf9999Thank you for taking the time to responed. The verses you quoted are ones that I would say show the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be separate Persons but the Bible states for sure there is only one God. Your thoughts on Isa. 43:10 and 44:6,8. For me these, and others, show there to be only one, and only ever one, single Being Who is God What do these verses mean to you? Thanks
  21. Soninme
    jlf9999The Holy Trinity does not define God as three parts but as three distinct Persons in one Divine Nature. Trinitarians believe there is only one Being of God (Duet 6:4) Included in the doctrine of the Trinity is the teaching that there exists in all the universe a single being known as God who is self-existent and unchangeable (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8). God is not three entities, nor three beings. God is a trinity of Persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three persons.(Matt. 28:19) Do you have a biblical reference?Also, if you would, what are your thoughts on Isaiah 43:10 and Isa. 44:6 and 8. Thanks
  22. Soninme
    Why would I seek a heretic for truth? Nice.
  23. Soninme
    Hello jlf9999 What does "amalgamated God" mean to you? I haven't heard that term before. Chapter and verse please.Thanks
  24. Soninme
    Ram There is actually no such thing as Gnostic Christians, because true Christianity and Gnosticism are mutually exclusive systems of belief. The Gnostics held a distinctly different view of the Bible, of Jesus Christ, of salvation, and of virtually every other major Christian doctrine. However, they did not have any writings by the Apostles to give legitimacy to their beliefs. That is why and how the Gnostic gospels were created. The Gnostics fraudulently attached the names of famous Christians to their writings, such as the gospel of Thomas, the gospel of Philip, the gospel of Mary, etc. The principles of Gnosticism contradict what it means to be a Christian. Therefore, while some forms of Gnosticism may claim to be Christian, they are in fact decidedly non-Christian. Gnosticism is based on false premises. It espouses a dualism regarding spirit and matter. Gnostics assert that matter is inherently evil and spirit is good. As a result of this presupposition, Gnostics believe anything done in the body, even the grossest sin, has no meaning because real life exists in the spirit realm only. Gnostics teach that the path of salvation or liberation is through the attainment of Gnosis (secret knowledge), the knowledge of the sacred truths of the spiritual universe. They believe that each human being has within himself a divine spark. Further, the Gnostic Savior does not save. Gnosticism lacks the idea of atonement. There is no sin to be atoned for. Ignorance of the Gnosis would be the only sin. The Gnostic Savior has no human nature, he is an Aeon, not a man; he only seemed to be a man. They believe that Jesus’ physical body was not real, but only “seemed” to be physical, and that His spirit descended upon Him at His baptism, but left Him just before His crucifixion. This teaching destroys not only the true humanity of Jesus, but also the atonement, for Jesus must not only have been truly God, but also the truly human (and physically real) man who actually suffered and died upon the cross in order to be the acceptable substitutionary sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 2:14-17). The biblical view of Jesus affirms His complete humanity as well as His full deity. The early church fathers were nearly unanimous in recognizing the Gnostic gospels as promoting false teachings about virtually every key Christian doctrine. There are countless contradictions between the Gnostic gospels and the true Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The Gnostic gospels should be rejected outright as not belonging in the Bible and not representing the genuine Christian faith. The Jesus of the Gnostics is truly a different Jesus (2 Cor. 11:4) and a false gospel. A true follower of Jesus Christ will NOT find truth in Gnosticism and shouldn't consider any of it's heresies. Thanks
  25. Soninme
    (Luke 20:34) Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. I don't see any reference expressed or implied to "the Mosaic Law" in these and previous passages, but to the resurrection. " But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection". If you are resurrected then you neither marry nor are given in marriage. The gospel of Philip is a Gnostic gospel, presenting a Gnostic viewpoint of Jesus and His teachings. It was not written by the Apostle Philip or anyone who had ever met Jesus. The original writing of the gospel of Philip is dated to the 3rd century A.D. at the earliest, at least 200 years after Jesus’ death. The only value in studying the gospel of Philip is in learning what heresies existed in the early centuries of the Christian church.Thanks.