Soninme

If I may say, I agree with you LM. Sometimes (not always) it may be overused if we don't understand a persons heart/motive. Case in point; I wonder what the Scribes and the Pharisees thought of Jesus after His remarks in Mathew 23, calling them "blind guides" "fools and blind" "hypocrites" and reffering to some of their faulty teachings and practices, then correcting them, and for sure, offending them. Christ certainly wasn't anti-scibe and anti-pharisee in the sense that He didn't love them, But He was very "anti-false teachings/practices", yet some may consider His words quite harsh. Christ came to set captives free. Free from false rules, teachings, and teachers. Many were offended. It did after all get Him crucified by those that were offended. Certainly, if we are, His true disciples we are to, above all things, show His love to all and be loving. Jesus died also for those caught up in false teachings and religions too and we are called to witness in love to those too. It is loving (I believe) when (for instance) a LDS tries to correct me of false or incomplete teaching. If I disagree with them I don't think of them as anti-.... Please understand I know some things are clearly "anti" but maybe not as much as first thought. Others in this thread have shown how those with opposing "truth" can have respectful dialogue and that makes good sense.

Maureen I was thinking the same thing

THanks for the responses thus far. Hello Dravin, I also don't see that as inherently anti. As a non LDS Christian I see it as part of my walk with Christ to “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature"(Mark 16:15) and "sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; (1 Peter 3:15) and "to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 3) We all encounter those of other faiths yet IF we believe they "have other gods" (Exodus 20:3) or "another Jesus" or "different gospel" (2 Corinthians 11:4) it is a good work to witness to them. I believe the Holy Spirit does lead us to do just that. I for one am so grateful for those who very patiently did that for me even though I thought much less of them at the time. It is being loving. That being said, if it is not done in love and with respect then it's worldly and probably should be labeled "anti" and who wants to listen to that anyway. Thanks

As a non LDS believer in Christ who frequents this site I often see the term "anti-Mormon" or simply "anti". I can understand it's use when there are (unfortunately) those that come here with no other purpose than to pick a fight or to belittle LDS beliefs. As one who frequents many websites of those who do not believe as I do, I don't see the terms "anti-Muslem" or "anti-Jehovahs Witness" or "anti-Buddist" etc. used to describe those who question others beliefs, whether they are sincere or otherwise. My question is, why is that term used instead of, say, "non-LDS" or "non-believer"? (Or what I say (I confess) when I hope no one is listening "jerk":D) Please understand I don't consider this a big issue, I'm just curious.

I see a vast difference.Traditional Christianity teaches there is only one and will only ever be one God. (Isaiah 44:8)(Rev 1:11) LDS teaches there are many gods. Traditional Christianity teaches God has been God fom all eternity.(Psalm 90:2) LDS teaches he was once a man like us. LDS teaches Satan is the brother of Christ and you and me. Traditional Christianity teaches Jesus is Satan's, yours and my creator. (John 1:3) Logically, these cannot all be true.

Hello gopecon This is where I see the division. Do I get baptised and confirmed to get saved or do I get baptised BECAUSE I'm saved? I believe the Bible teaches we are saved by grace only through faith only. Works will then naturally follow but have nothing at all to do with making or keeping me saved, that is only by His grace. (Ephesians 2:8)Also as for works saving us; Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” This is why protestants would say "works" are not required for salvation or else God would owe us something (Rom. 4:4) I wholeheartedly agree with PC

I suppose either could be possible as God can do anything. To say for certain when He creates the spirit is up for debate. One that will likely lead nowhere I fear.What is clear though from the Bible is our spirit/ soul was indeed created and not from eternity. I submit the following teaching is contrary to the Bible. I have another subject to dwell upon... It is associated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead,--namely, the soul--the mind of man--the immortal spirit....All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation....The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself....I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man....The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end....There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal (co-eternal) with our Father in heaven. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 352-4: Thanks

Hello MrShortyTo me the Bible teaches that God, Who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is in fact the creator of ALL things. (John 1:3) (Col. 1:16) Which includes the spirit of man. (Zechariah 12:1) ...Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him. Colossians 1:17 And He (Jesus) is before all things, and in Him all things consist. As God and creator, Jesus would be "before all things". If we have always existed then He wouldn't be before all things, which includes you and me. He said He was before Abraham. (John 8:58) Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” He also asked Job; (Job 38:4 “ Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? The angels were there but Job was not. 1 Corinthians 15: 45-46 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. Thanks

saintish Hello SantishMay I offer; According to this then Jesus is "the Lord thy God" the sole object of worship. Except Jesus said differently; (John 4:23) But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” I believe Paul speaks likewise to those in Corinth (1 Cor. 8:4) yet says; (verse 6) yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.If Isaiah 43:10, 44:6-8 etc. etc. in LDS teaching, is saying that Jehovah/Jesus is the only true and living God for the Israelites, why does Paul say it's the Father AND Jesus? Also what of Christ's words in John 17:3? "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent". In the NT Jesus seems to not cease speaking of the Father yet in Isaiah and elsewhere He makes no mention of His Father:o doesn't that seem odd? Maybe I misunderstand but if the Israelites God was Jehovah only, and no other, why now are 3 gods required? Respectfully, the doctine of the Trinity is the biblical "explanation of the relationship between the members of the Godhead". 1 Timothy 6:15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen. Thanks

Ram Do you have scripture for this claim? How can Jesus and the Holy Spirit be "fully Almighty" without being fully divine?

Skippy But weren't Rev. 1:8 and Rev. 21:6 and 22:13 direct quotes of Jesus Christ also? What about 2 Nephi 9:46 and 3 Nephi 9:18? Respectfully, wouldn't there then be no Godhead "to operate" until all members progressed to become fully almighty? Who then was the Almighty God before that happened?

That could be^_^ or... maaaybeee, I just quoted scripture that says there are 3 Persons called the one Almighty God.Again I ask; how can there be more than 1 Almighty God? How do "current scholars of the Bible" interpret those verses?

The Father Almighty; Gen 14:19 "He blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth" The Son Almighty; Rev. 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Rev. 4:8 And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME." See also (2 Nephi 9:46) (3 Nephi 9:18) The Holy Spirit Almighty; Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Yet there are not three Almighties but one Almighty; 1 Timothy 6:15 "He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords" 1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Yes I will, unless you explain the obvious to me.

True, they did not have the NT, yet Jesus said; John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” What "changed"? Righteousness has ALWAYS been by grace through faith. The Messiah was first preached to Adam and Eve. (Gen 3:15) Jesus said again; (Matt. 5:17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. As for Abraham; Romans 4 1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Also see Galatians chapter 3. For sure we have, in these last days, much more inspired teaching than did those 2000+ years ago, but Adam, Abraham, David, you , me etc... were and are, ALL saved by faith in Jesus Christ Who is the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Heb. 13:8) If someone in the past or today says we are saved otherwise then that is not revelation from God.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, (Jesus) the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. How can there be more than 1 Almighty?

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life. The one Almighty Tri-une God is the Creator/Life-Giver. Gen. 1:1-2. Job 33:4. John 1:3. The one Almighty Tri-une God is "All knowing" (1 John 3:20. Father)(John 16:30. Son)(1 Cor. 2:10-11 Holy Spirit)

I agree with PC and Maureen. The Triune God is the one Almighty God. Gen 17:1 Job 33:4 Rev.1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Saintish may I ask what your answer would be? Can there be more than one almighty God? My thought is that would be a logical impossibility.

Anatess I also thank you for your fair and accurate responses.

Faith_GraceI would also add this; Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; Thanks

Volgadon Surely and sadly, we are getting nowhere. If you have a point please make it.

But guys, you haven't shown me where? Those verses referenced in my last post have nothing to do with each other. Your assertion that "This is commonly accepted by most New Testament scholars" is an opinion, just like mine that says the Bible we have today is the one Christ wanted. If I could quote another Bible scholar Norman Geisler; Jesus and the New Testament writers confirmed the Old Testament–they quoted from almost all the books; they referred to all the sections of the Old Testament; they used phrases like “Law and the Prophets” that always refers to the Old Testament. But how do we know the New Testament? Well, Jesus promised the New just as He had confirmed the Old. He said in John 14:26 and John 16:23, “The Holy Spirit is going to lead you, the Apostles, into all truth, bring to your remembrance whatever I have taught you.” Now, whatever the Apostles taught was Spirit directed. Jesus said so. The New Testament is what the Apostles taught. Therefore, the New Testament is Spirit directed. Jesus promised that He would give the New Testament. The Apostles claimed this power. And they wrote it. The only place in the world you will find a record of Apostolic teaching is in the 27 books of the New Testament–no more, no less. There is no other book known to mankind that the Apostles wrote and every book that they wrote under the inspiration of God we have in the New Testament. Therefore, with the end of the New Testament, with the end of Apostolic teaching, we have the full and final revelation of God. Because Jesus said, “I will lead you to all truth,” not just some; “all truth necessary for faith and practice will be given to you.” The New Testament is the record of what was given to them; therefore, the New Testament completes the Canon, finishes the Bible. And when the last Apostle wrote the last book, referring to his book but indirectly to the whole Bible, he said, “Don’t add to it; don’t take away from it because the Bible is the complete Word of God.” Thanks

Ram I didn't go through the whole list, just the first few as, forgive me, I don't at all see what you see. 1 Enoch 1:2From them I heard all things, and understood what I saw; that which will not take place in this generation, but in a generation which is to succeed at a distant period, on account of the elect. 1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1 Enoch 7:4 And that I alone shall suffer for so grievous a crime. Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 1 Enoch 9:4 You have made all things; you possess power over all things; and all things are open and manifest before you. You behold all things, and nothing can be concealed from you. 1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. I will though give you Jude 1:14

Where?????

Please tell me which part of the OT did Jesus say was "left out"?Was the Septugint an accurate translation? Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.(Matt 22:29)"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My Words shall never pass away" (Matthew 24:35) John 10:35 "and the scripture cannot be broken; Well His word does say;1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. If God would not/ could not/ did not, preserve His "word of truth"(John 17:17)(Ps 119:160) then what is the point of following those verses, especially for those born between 100 AD and 1830 or so?