Soninme

Hi Jayanna, I am happy to answer your question as best as I can.I believe that humans have not existed from eternity but have a beginning. I believe God in His omniscience has known me from eternity and that blows my mind. I believe, once created, that humans will exist for eternity either with God (in His presence, Heaven/ New Earth)) or without Him (Hell). So no, I don't believe that we existed before we were born. From anatess; I agree "Begotten does not equal created" in my understanding. I'm unclear as to what you mean by "Spirit is eternal. Spirits got organized - not created" Why would a spirit need to be organized if it's eternal? What needed to be organized? Was the spirit incomplete? Why I ask is; how could Jesus be a member of the infinite and eternal Godhead if there was a time when His spirit was not yet organized? The bolded part was where I got the idea that Jesus was created."came into being as conscious identities in our appointed order". From Faded, Would the bolded part then mean that the Godhead was not always what it is today?

That's okay Maureen, I still like you :)

I understand that "creation out of nothing" is not LDS teaching.5.) "We were born as spirits, and we dwelt in the presence of our Eternal Parents; we lived before our mortal birth. As spirits we were in all respects as we are now save only that we were not housed in mortal bodies as is the present circumstance. Christ was the Firstborn of all the heavenly host; Lucifer [satan - ed.} was a son of the morning: each of us came into being as conscious identities in our appointed order; and Christ is our Elder Brother." Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, Vol. 1, p. 21. From; The First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ::Jesus, however, is the firstborn among all the sons of God;the first begotten in the spirit, and the only begotten in the flesh. He is our elder brother, and we, like Him, are in the image of God. All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity." MFP 4:203. The reason I quoted that was, IF Jesus was begotten in the spirit by Father and Mother then how could He have created all things? How could He create His own spirit? How did He exist within the infinite eternal Godhead without an infinite eternal spirit? Have I misunderstood? Sorry, had a brain lapse there. I meant "mortal life"

Faded,If I have offended you or anyone else on this forum then I apologize. That certainly is not my intent in any discussion. I have looked at my last post a few times, along with some others and honestly I'm wondering what I said that was so upsetting. Please, if I may, where did I say "Mormons believe X, Y and Z" or accused or told you what you believe? I purposely prefaced my question with; "My understanding of LDS teaching is" so as not to do what you are claiming of me. Again, it's not my intention to belittle or offend anyone. It is hard for me to convey the right "tone" in writing though I will try to do better.

I agree. Thanks. Just to clarify, does this mean there was no direct contact (physical or verbal) between the Father and humankind in the OT? My understanding of LDS teaching is that Heavenly Father and Mother produced (created) all spirits which include Jesus, you and me. We are all literal brothers and sisters. If that is truly the case then Jesus is a creation and not the creator of all things. (John 1:3) (Col 1:16-17) Remember the sceptics question of "who created God".Therefore there would be a point in the past when the Godhead was not. Their "unity and oneness" are not infinite. Also, what of the Holy Spirit? Not trying to argue but I just don't see Jesus telling us of a premortal life of the Father here. My take on John 5:17-27 is clearly answered in verse 18, that for some reason you didn't quote. John 5:18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus is showing His listeners that He isn't another Being of God in competition with or a lesser god inferior to the Father but rather He is one with the Father and not off doing His own thing, so to speak. Who else can likewise do what the Father does except One that is equal in power to the Father? Jesus is worthy of the same honor as the Father, in fact not honoring Jesus as Who He claims to be is not honoring the Father at all.

Faded you are misrepresenting my position.I claim, along with you and others on this board, that only the autographic text of the original documents was inspired. We don't have the originals. Yes the Old and New Testaments have been translated and copied into many different languages. I do acknowledge that translations aren't perfect and "copiers and transcribers" "didn't always get it 100% right". What I also claim is if you actually examine the variations, you would wonder what all the fuss is about (What are we really debating about?) For the variations have so little impact on the meaning. And if the objective was for God to communicate meaning, these variations in the manuscripts add up to much about nothing. It's like complaining about the penmanship of the writer. From the Exposition of The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy; No, God did not speak in English but I believe that what we have available to us today is the accurate message of God's plan of salvation. Surely you have examples of some of the "thousands of significant differences". A good example would be a significant doctrinal difference such as the nature of God or requirements of salvation or of the resurrection etc. I have a Bible with four translations side by side, The KJV, Amplified, NAS and NIV.My favorite though is the NKJV because I grew up with it. I also like to check the NASB. What I have noticed time and time again is that though the words are different the teaching is identical. Used together in many instances I have been helped to get a grasp of or a better understanding of the teaching. I just don't see how you say they "don't match up". Pick any 2, 3, or 12 translations and show me a verse or verses where there are significant differences such as the requirements for salvation or the nature of God or something that is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.(KJV) or; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (NASb); or; So that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work. (Amplified) or; so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (NIV)

Well Fly I think we could go back and forth forever. But why? Thanks for the chat.:)

Sorry my mistake. I thought he was considered a prophet and thus incapable of writing falsehoods. I too think he was wrong a lot. I agree. My point was it's an easy decision when I believe the the witness contradicts and makes many errors. Because God warned us there would be those who would take His true word (part or all of it) and twist it. 2 Peter 3:15 "and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures". Just because "some things hard to understand" for sure doesn't mean it's wrong.17 "You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked" That's a pretty clear warning of what some will do to God's word. So we would be wise to "rightly divide the word of truth" Well He sure cared when those tried to add tradition to His word; Mark 7:13 "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. Again, did Jesus think the scriptures "didn't line up"? I just think our view of the scriptures should be the same as Jesus, the prophets and the apostles.John 17:17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward Your holy temple, And praise Your name For Your lovingkindness and Your truth; For You have magnified Your word above all Your name. 2 Timothy 3:16-17. I would quote it again but..... It would take up a lot of time and space on this board to answer all your objections and these guys would do it much better than I and even if I did then for sure there would be more objections and more verses so it would likely be never ending. This site answers hundreds of supposed problems/contradictions from Genesis to Revelation.Yours are in there. God bless.

Daniel, I totally agree.Respectfully, I think the following is much different. But no one keeps the commandments. This is saying no one is saved until he first "brings his life into conformity with the commandments of God". Who on this planet keeps the commandments? No one but Christ has or ever will keep them. If I'm not able to saved until I first "bring my life into conformity with the commandments of God" I can never be saved. Remember 1 John 1:8. Again, this is saying "get your life right, stop sinning, THEN His grace is enough". Jesus said; Math. 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Also Math. 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away. Do we obey these 24/7/365? The bolded verse especially gets me. Do we ALWAYS go the extra mile with everyone? Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. How can we "deny ourselves of all ungodliness" and "love God with all our might, mind and strength" without FIRST recieving the Holy Spirit and thus the power to obey? Again I completely agree.If we keep the commandments then Christ owes us salvation, but no one does, justified or not. Then no one can ever be saved.Have you stopped sinning? The blood of Jesus cleanses us of all sins. 1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. In confessing our sins we are cleansed, not from ceasing to sin. Now that is in no way a license to sin. Maybe I got this all wrong but it seems I, a sinner, have to first get my life right so by grace I can recieve the Holy Spirit. My works make me eligible for grace.This isn't what Paul taught.

Hi Reader, I am sorry this is happening to you and your family. I agree with Suzie and if I may, would recomend your husband leave the house and get into counseling for his problem. Even though he doesn't think it's cheating, make it very clear that you do and won't put up with it. Would he think the church would agree with his view? How would the children feel if they found out? He needs help! We know God hates divorce (Malachi 2:16) and is surely capable of restoring your husband and your marriage but that can only happen if your husband first admits his sin and commits his life to Christ and then gets into counseling and stays there until he can prove to you he is a new man and until, or if ever, you can trust him. He needs to see you are completely serious. If he refuses then that will show you a lot. You also need to be in prayer and absolutely lean on your friends. Please don't go it alone. My prayers are with you.

After the resurrection the souls of those (who put their trust in the Savior) in the part of Hades that was Abrahams bosom or Paradise, according to 2 Cor. 5:8 and Phil. 1:21-23 and Rev. 6:9 are now in the presence of God. Do you have teaching that shows otherwise? Yes it seems for 3 days He was in Paradise, then was resurrected, Paradise then is taken into God's presence. Now Christ, being God, is omnipresent, so even though He is showing His resurrected humanity to the disciples, in His divinity He is everywhere. To clarify, children or those incapable of understanding, I believe God will not hold accountable. Although just because someone hasn't heard the name Jesus doesn't mean they don't need to respond in faith to the revelation that they have been given. Romans chapter one says God has given us knowledge of Him, even "made it plain" "so that men are WITHOUT excuse". This doesn't sound like they never had opportunity;Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. . How much more us, who have been given so much more knowledge of Him, need to be faithful with His word and to take His gospel to all nations. Like 12:48 For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. We have gone way off topic though.

Fly,please let me clarify, in Luke 16:22-26, Jesus said the rich man and Lazarus both went to the place of the dead (Hades). The righteous and the wicked are separated by a "great gulf fixed". The blessed dead are in that part of Hades called "Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22) or "paradise" (Luke 23:43) (those of the faith of Abraham, which would include David). This was before Christs' resurrection. They were not permitted to enter into the presence of God in heaven until after the atonement. Jesus, upon His death, descended to Abraham's bosom, proclaimed the gospel, and then led its residents into heaven. Paul said in 2 Cor. 5:8 "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord". Also see Phil 1:21-23. Those who were in Hades (the place of torment for those without faith) will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15) These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not a person trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation at the time of ones death. (Hebrews 9:27) So yes, David didn't stay in the grave (Sheol, Hades, Hell) but after the resurrection your spirit either goes into the Lord's presence forever or out of it forever. No one affiliated with the true church will be in Hell.The gates of Hell only let souls in, not out. The gates of Hell (the power of Satan or of unbelievers) shall not prevail (overcome) the church. Ever.

When was it ever part of the 66?What "Scriptural Authority" would you say he was using when speaking of the phoenix? Who do you believe Paul was talking to in 2 Tim 3:16-17 and did that message do him/them any good? . Gotta love them "scholars" Are you a Polytheist? Does "sons of God" HAVE to mean literal children, or is it possible, even just a little, that it could mean "sons by creation" (made)? Which could also be rendered "sons of Adam" or "sons of Israel". Did Jesus believe in multiple gods? Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.' 7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.” John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I'm gonna stick with Jesus:)

Fly, Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more. No one going to Hades is coming out. Luke 16:22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment. As believers Paul said 2 Cor. 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. John 3:18 “He who believes in Him (Jesus) is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I highly regard the teachings of John MacAurthor, Charles Spurgeon, my pastor and many others.Who do you believe Paul was talking to in 2 Tim 3:16-17 and did that message do him/them any good? FadedDo you have examples of "significant differences"? Such as the nature of God or salvation? I have read otherwise. Or are you talking about word order, punctuation, spelling etc..

I truly am not wanting to keep beating this horse but I admit, I am having much difficulty understanding the LDS view of the Bible, here's another reason why; Thanks for your honesty. Your comment and link though are different than this; "In all my teachings, I have taught the gospel from the Old and New Testaments. I have found therein every doctrine and the proof of every doctrine the Latter-Day Saints believe in" (Bringham Young. Ludlow, p.346). Interesting that you brought up law. Suppose a witness took the stand and his testimony was found to be; and and also What do you honestly believe the judge and jury's opinion would be of that witness?Mine would honestly be; "What good is that testimony, throw it out" "can't trust it" Why would God tell us to "study" and "rightly divide" (2 Tim 2:15 ) "search daily" (Acts 17:11) "meditate day and night" (Psalms 1:2) on His word if He had no intention or ability to preserve it? Remember what Jesus thought of the Tanakh, (Old Testament) no mention of copying errors. New Testament writers, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, quoting the Septuagint (Greek translation of Hebrew scriptures) with no mention of correcting a "bad translation". So ya, I'm misapprehending how to say I "love the Bible" out of one side of my mouth yet somehow square all the "inconsistencies , contradictions and errors" out of the other side. In all my years as a Christian, the only ones I've heard with this view of the Bible are athiests, agnostics and others who don't believe it. Just a Guy, I hope that didn't make you too uncomfortable.Those are too easy. I will call your contradictions google and raise you this. Genesis - Deuteronomy | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry :) Thanks for putting up with me so far.

I bring this passage up a lot because it is very clear (at least to me) that whatever Paul's definition of scripture was at that time (remember, what he said was God-breathed so it has to be true) was "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work". What I continually here from those in this forum is, it's not. I am just quoting the scripture which you don't believe. Should I assume Paul got it wrong? I just don't see how it can be your way. For sure I believe Paul was at least referencing the Old Testament. But scripture interprets scripture;2 Peter 3:15 "as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures". Peter believed Paul's writings were scripture. Gal 1:11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1 Cor. 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ. Do you believe Paul was lying? Of course you don't. You say you believe the New Testament is from God. But this is what makes no sense to me, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 evidently according to you, doesn't mean what it says. Even if we include the OT and the NT as the "scriptures" Paul was talking about, you still will tell me over and again "it's not enough". That why I ask; Should I believe the Bible or you? Once again in stark contrast to your teaching, Paul said otherwise. Why do you blame the scriptures for having those that don't believe them? Also don't forget Peter as was quoted above; "untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction". Why is this the Bibles' fault? It was foretold! Who should I believe? Also there are essential doctrines where Christians are unified, that is what distinguishes them from non Christians, just as you would say, "all true LDS are unified" and there are non essential doctrines where honest believers can differ in regards to their maturity. I see this on this website as well as others and I chalk it up to human nature. Again, please, what teaching did you get from the BoM and others that was left out of the Bible? Recreating!!!!! ???? Ahh so the gates of Hell really did prevail against Christs church. (Math. 16:18)Who should I believe? Evidently, according to you, there had to be something seriously missing. Does this mean what Paul said in 2 Tim. was wrong? If not then what does 2 Tim. 3:16-17 mean? Yes, it is not the Bible's fault that it's mis-interpreted. This verse tells us it has happened before and it will happen again and again. Great question, to which the Bible gives us the answer; 2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. James 1:18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures. Acts 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.1 Cor. 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. See Deut 18:18-22. John 17:17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. Ya, because we don't study our Bibles and we believe the Bible is please send us someone to tell us what we are suppose to believe.

2 Timothy3:13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. What's missing? I finally got my answer:lol:Here's my dilemma; Should I believe what the Bible says or should I believe those whom I have quoted? 2 Peter 3:14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

Thank you for that jayanna. May we all seek the Lord with our whole heart.

Thank you jayanna:) I don't see how this verse relates to 2 Tim.Maybe this will help What does the Bible mean by binding and loosing? I think you mean this comment; That was my response to another poster. What I meant was that Jesus said; (Luke 21:33) Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. In that context I gave the definition of "restore" and that doesn't fit with Luke 21:33. Jesus' words don't need to be restored. Does that clarify some? The restoration in this context is that of God's plan from the beginning; Acts 3:21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”Also; 2 Tim.1:9 "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, Thank you.I hope you do too.

Faded,While I do believe "The Bible is whole, complete and flawless" with respect to the original, I never said "there can never be anymore scripture". God can certainly do whatever He so desires. My question is again; According to 2 Timothy 3:15-17 what teaching or truth necessary for salvation, santification or instruction in righteousness is missing from the scriptures Paul was talking about? Also, if I could add 2 Peter 1:3 "as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue"? I agree with you on this. I believe Galatians 1:8-9 is speaking of false teachings and along with 2 Corinthians 11:4 also a "different Jesus" and not at all saying there can be nothing new. I would say the onus is on us all to be like the Bereans (Acts 17:11) and search the scriptures. We are warned continually in the Bible that false teachers will abound, and have been given the scriptures to expose them as such. Jesus said wide is the path to destruction and many enter through it. (Math. 7:13) We must always be on watch.As a side note, I gave lots of scriptures in the Trinity thread that have also been ignored. I don't want to take any steps "into the darkness" 1 John 1:5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

Really? Are you guys actually reading this thread? Not that I expect an answer.

I don't see your point. Genesis 5 tells of those who lived X- amount or years then died, not so with Enoch. The Septuagint was approx. 250 B C. The Hebrew scriptures were copied many times since first given to Moses. My point was that Jesus claimed not even a jot or tittle was in error, contrary to what I have read from some on this board. Interesting that the NT was written in Greek and inspired by the Holy Spirit yet Hebrew scriptures were quoted in it and therefore that translation had to be perfect. So it is possible to have a God-breathed translation from one language to another, especially if we have a promise from God that His words shall by no means pass away. This is very hard to swallow. Jesus didn't say anything like His words would have to be restored "brought back into existence or use" "put back to a former state" You only restore what is broken or lost. I noted that you didn't respond to my question that has been asked for many pages now. You asked me many and I have at least attempted to answer them. I asked just the one.

Been a little busy trying to keep up FunkyTown your point is well taken. However we do have available to us ancient original language manuscript copies to compare our translations to. We can "check the Hebrew" or "check the Greek" if we have doubts. Paul quoted from sources who weren't in the scriptures. (Acts 17:28) (1 Cor. 15:33) (Titus 1:12)Eldad and Medad prophesied (Numbers 11:26) along with others, their prophesies weren't recorded along with a whole bunch of what Jesus did; John 20:30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. Also John 21:25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. According to John if they put it all in we would need a bigger planet;) From the Holy Spirit. Peter 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. And Genesis 5:23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. The OT was originally written in Hebrew.The Septuagint is a translation of the Hebrew Bible into the Greek language. It was translated in the third and second centuries B.C. Some of the quotes in the NT are from the Septuagint. This I only guess; Jesus most likely spoke Aramaic so it's possible the scriptures were also translated into Aramaic. (I will not die on this hill):) But clearly the Bible doesn't justify those things. Surely all generations have those that twist the Bible; 2 Peter 3:15; "as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures". Not all who say they are of Christ are.(Math. 7:23) There's my confusion; I'm told Jesus words didn't pass away, rather, "the truth just needed to be restored"Webster Online Dictionary Restore: 1 : give back, return 2 : to put or bring back into existence or use 3 : to bring back to or put back into a former or original state : renew 4 : to put again in possession of something I believe the truth needed, and still needs to be preached. John 17:17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. I really tried to answer your questions as best I could. I also hope you don't think I trying to pick a fight or troll or the like. I'm just trying to follow Jesus day by day. You said you would answer; According to 2 Timothy 3:15-17 what teaching or truth necessary for salvation, santification or instruction in righteousness is missing from the scriptures Paul was talking about? Also, if I could add 2 Peter 1:3 "as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue"

Galatians 4:4But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, Yes Jesus kept the law. If the scripture says Jesus is to be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2) but instead He was born in Jerusalem ... wouldn't God be a liar? Jesus was born in Bethlehem because He was subject to the scripture. It's called keeping your word. The point of my post was to show the opinions of those that say "hey, you need to fix that" you should fix it" (of the Bible) should understand Jesus NEVER said the translation or words needed to be fixed, just their understanding of it. Ya it is. I do the same and most of the time He answers through His word. what??? Agreed. The Bible nor I ever said eternal life comes from words on a page. John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” The error of the Pharisees was/is "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” They had the right words, they just didn't believe. They had their own interpretation. That's a mistake we don't want to make. You don't like what Jesus thought of the Scriptures????????? My point is that FOR CERTAIN Jesus considered the Old Testament to be the word of God. I could ask over and over what books Jesus said were missing from the OT? What chapters He said were translated incorrectly,? What word He said was altered? How many people He thought wrote Isaiah?We all know the answer to this (NONE) yet those comments I quoted (and more) still get repeated over and over again. Jesus said; "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." That's in Math. 24:35 and Mark 13:31 and Luke 21:33. Respectfully, I honestly doubt they passed away until the JST came out. That and the many other verses given in previous posts, I believe, show the words of Jesus (gospels) and the apostles in the NT are for sure Holy scripture. Certainly God is God and I'm not, He can add more if He so desires but; 1 Cor. 14:32-33 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. That tells me new revelation must line up with what has been given by the Bible. He won't add teachings that don't follow from the Bible. Now back to the question I've ask many times with no answer; According to 2 Timothy 3:15-17 what teaching or truth necessary for salvation, santification or instruction in righteousness is missing from the scriptures Paul was talking about.