Connie

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About Connie

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    Female
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    Utah, USA
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    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

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  1. Connie

    Forgiveness

    That is a good point!
  2. Connie

    Forgiveness

    Thank you! I really want to study this topic more now. 🙂
  3. Connie

    Til We Have Faces by C.S. Lewis

    I’m not sure I would agree that Orual speaks more like the old priest, but maybe. It was the Fox when talking with Orual at the end that says “at least the priest knew that sacrifice is necessary” or something to that effect. It is rather scary sometimes to have your “natural man” devoured/sacrificed in order to become more divine. I see the Fox in many ways being the voice of Lewis’s own theological beliefs. Even early on in the book he’s the one who tells Orual “the Divine Nature has no jealousy.” And he’s the one who talks of everyone having a spark of the divine in them, which I don’t think Orual ever really came to believe, having been taught that the nobility had divine blood but not the common people. I believe it’s in Weight of Glory that Lewis talks about “living in a society of possible gods and goddesses.” I think Lewis sees the Fox as at least partially right, so I think it makes sense that he would place him in the bliss of the dead. I completely disagree that everyone in the books makes the claim of acting in the best interest of those they love. That is certainly what Orual paints for us and wants us to believe in the first part, but when her veil is striped off she comes to see how wrong she was. It’s part of her self deception. She never acted in the best interest of Psyche. She wanted Psyche to remain “hers.” After all the incidents with Psyche and the god of the mountain, Orual goes to Psyche’s room and burns the poetry Psyche had written to the god and many of her clothes, just keeping the things from her childhood when “they were all happy together.” She basically wanted Psyche to remain a child, to remain her child. That is what the conversation with Ansit really brought out to me. The Fox comes to see this much sooner than Orual does (perhaps another way the bliss of the dead for him makes sense to me). He tries to use his love for Orual as a bargaining chip against her dueling Trunia’s brother (the same way Orual used it to get Psyche to use the lamp to look at her husband) but later comes to apologize that he did that, saying something like “love should not be used in that way.” Thanks for discussing this with me, mordorbund. It’s always nice to get different perspectives and solidify your own.
  4. Connie

    Til We Have Faces by C.S. Lewis

    That certainly seems to be the belief of the people of Glome, that the gods love is selfish. The old priest, when he is calling for the sacrifice of Psyche/Istra mentions “the loving and the devouring are the same thing” or something like that. Bardia’s wife, Ansit, echoes that thought when she is accusing Orual of working Bardia to death. She says “your love is like the gods.” I don’t think that’s the message Lewis wants us to take away, though. He does not seem to ascribe jealousy to Divine Love. As Orual begins to have her visions and dreams, it strips away the veil she uses to hide. She begins to see the ugliness within herself and ultimately takes that ugliness to god wherein it’s transformed to beauty. I think Lewis is saying “the gods” want us to be our best self and our best self is when we are sharing in the beauty and goodness of the Divine Nature. So I would say that is what Lewis is saying it takes to enter into the “bliss of the dead”—to have no self deception, to completely see your own ugliness or wrongness, and to take that to god so that he may change you to be more divine. In that sense, I think it’s clear that Psyche and Orual get there and perhaps even the Fox if we take his conversation with Orual at the end of her vision into account. He seems to recognize where he was wrong and feel remorse for it. Redival and the King, probably not. Bardia is not even mentioned after Orual resolves her feelings for him upon his death and her conversation with his wife, so not sure where I would place him.
  5. Connie

    Forgiveness

    Thank you, both! Would anyone else like to offer their opinion on this video? It's not too long, just under 6 minutes.
  6. Connie

    Forgiveness

    This video suggests that there are different levels of forgiveness that one can give based on the level of remorse expressed by the person in need of forgiveness. My question is for any Christian, LDS or otherwise. Do you think the ideas about forgiveness in this video are compatible with the gospel of Jesus Christ and what He taught about forgiveness? Why or why not?
  7. Connie

    “God’s” Plan

    I would suggest studying the writings and general conference talks of Elder Neal A. Maxwell. It really helps with perspective.
  8. Connie

    Til We Have Faces by C.S. Lewis

    I would say they are two different human interpretations (or maybe emphases) of the divine. One to ritual/symbolism, the other to nature/reason. God can use both to bring about whatever good that a particular people are willing to accept, and there is truth in both, just not complete or full truth. I think that the scene with the woman who brings the sacrifice to the old statue shows this. When Orual asks why she doesn’t use the new statue, her answer is that the new statue is only for the learned and noble and wouldn’t understand common people. Perhaps suggesting that there are different ways of approaching and interpreting the divine, and that an individual may be reached better by one way over another.
  9. Connie

    Til We Have Faces by C.S. Lewis

    There's really no indication in this version of whether Redival did or not. Lewis doesn't address this in any way. Perhaps if it was important to her own journey, which, again, Lewis doesn't get in to with the main focus on Orual. Redival's relationship with Psyche is different than Orual's, and yet there's the similarity of jealousy. Orual wants to be the only person Psyche loves, so perhaps more of a "love jealousy." Whereas, Redival is jealous that Psyche stole Orual's love away from her, perhaps more of a "hate jealousy." These are bad terms; I'm not sure how else to put it. Hopefully you understand. In my reading, I never really got a sense of how Redival feels about religion or the gods, so if she did get to see the palace it's hard to say whether she would have seen the real thing or the passing vision. Orual doesn't want to believe in it or see it, so even when she catches a glimpse, it's quickly gone. I will get to your other questions later. I'm particularly interested in that middle one.
  10. Connie

    Til We Have Faces by C.S. Lewis

    Well, the good thing about a forum is you an always come back to it if you feel so inclined.
  11. Connie

    Til We Have Faces by C.S. Lewis

    I have finished the first 5 chapters. They are really pretty short chapters if anyone wants to jump on and read these first 5 by the end of the week it’s still very doable. I’ve forgotten so many details between readings. I am struck this time with just how much Orual is stuck between worlds/cultures. She was born into this very pagan culture with heavy superstition and ritualistic worship of their goddess, Ungit. But the first person she comes to love is this Greek slave her father acquires to teach her. From him she learns about reason and logic and nature or the natural order of things. I’m interested to see how she will combine the two. I’m noticing how much Orual has in common with her father. At one point Psyche tells her, “You look just like our father when you say those things.” And how much she does not like that. I think she tries not to notice or think on how much they are alike. One other thing I’m noticing is she mentions the “smell of Ungit” quite often, the smell of animal sacrifice. She talks of things that “reek with holiness” and the “horror of divine things.” There’s a definite strong disgust she feels toward religion, I think, and yet she also has a fascination with it. When you get a chance to read them, let me know your thoughts on the first 5 chapters.
  12. Connie

    Til We Have Faces by C.S. Lewis

    This is what I was thinking. I'm sure we're all busy and holidays are right around the corner. Just make whatever comments you want and ask discussion questions if you wish. Or look back at some of the past questions and see if you want to make any comments on those. Would you prefer something more formal? I could come up with something.
  13. Connie

    Til We Have Faces by C.S. Lewis

    It's time for me to read this again. Anyone want to join me?
  14. Connie

    Virtual Sacrament Meeting

    I'm so glad the kingdom of God on Earth does not do this. "We teach correct principles, and they govern themselves."
  15. We started going back once a month starting in June when we were still living down south. We separated into three groups. It was short and sweet with everyone wearing masks. As the organist, it was hard to hear anyone singing with the masks on. Now that we are living in northern Utah, we are able to go twice a month separating into two groups. There are only two wards in our building. In this ward, there is no singing which is understandable. It’s harder to sing through a mask. My husband, who doesn’t even like to sing, has mentioned how much he misses the singing. My oldest daughter misses having full church meetings. It’s been different and hard in some respects. It’s been difficult to get to know anyone in our new ward in current conditions. But we go anyway because it’s important to us that we take the sacrament.