Jacob 4

[bytor2112]

God did provide a way for ALL to come to salvation in the same way, through His son, Jesus Christ. There is no salvation apart from Christ.

No salvation apart from Christ...yes. But, in what manner must ALL of mankind come unto Christ? Those who died without knowledge of Christ or before the time of Christ....HOW does God provide a way for them?

I really do not know. But I do "like" the LDS theory.

From 1st Peter Ch. 3:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

and 1st Peter Ch.4:

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Check out Doctrine and Covenants Section 138.

I believe we would. God would not have given the command to be fruitful and multiply had it not been possible.

So, we would exist and have remained in a state of innocence? How would we know how to multiply...Adam and Eve didn't know they were naked until their "eyes were opened"? If that was God's design for man...why not start over? Destroy Adam and Eve and begin again..after all they were just new creations....they didn't exist before?

Would we all fit into the Garden of Eden? Would I even be born since my father was married/divorced before he married my mother? I am not sure we can answer that questions because the reality is that we live in a fallen, sinful world.

From ii Nephi: (Book of Mormon):

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

21 And the days of the children of amen were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men care, that they might have joy.

There would have been no need for God's plan of salvation had Adam and Eve not sinned. The plan of salvation through Jesus Christ is a RESULT of the fall.

We believe that the Creation Fall and Atonement are all part of God's plan of Salvation. You are correct in that had Adam and Eve not fallen, their would have been no need for an Atonement. Christ was not an after thought. "OOPS...that darn devil has foiled my plans for my creations..so I will send Jesus to save them". Remember God is Omniscient.

See Alma Ch: 42

Free will, or agency...we are not puppets.

Um...ok...BUT again, if it was God's plan for his creations to remain in the perfect sinless state that Adam and Eve were in before the Fall....why not just start over? He nearly did at the time of Noah and the flood. Sounds like it was part of a greater plan..no? Agency ...freedom to choose and all.

I do not think so. I believe I came into existence sometime around August 1982.

Latter Day Saints believe that we have always existed...that we are literally sons and daughters of God.

I believe we do, Christ would not have come to earth, lived a sinless life, died on the cross for the atonement of our sins and raised again so that we will be resurrected, if we will not exist after death.

Why does God care so much if we are only creations...if our existence has only been the span of a few years...really nothing in the Eternal sense?

How do you feel about Baptism? Is it necessary? (Christ himself was baptized by John the Baptist and Christ said to Baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost).

What about the Catholic Church...they claim Apostolic succession form Peter? If they strayed and are incorrect or Apostate from Christ's teachings or Church that he established....doesn't it follow that Protestants (meaning to Protest...the Catholic Church) are in some regard just offshoots of the Church in which they left?

Thanks again- Bytor

[JessicaHarper]

No salvation apart from Christ...yes. But, in what manner must ALL of mankind come unto Christ? Those who died without knowledge of Christ or before the time of Christ....HOW does God provide a way for them?

What manner must we come to Christ? Faith in Christ. As to those before Christ, God made a way for them as well. Speaking of the Jews. They also had to live by faith. There are passages in the NT referring to OT persons saying that their faith was credited to them as rightesousness. But they also had to make sacrifices for their sins, blood sacrifices to atone for their sin. With Christ, his blood atones for our sin. Again talking about those that have not, or will not hear...I honestly don't know, bytor. Romans tells us that God's creation tells confirms He is creator and God. Are they going to know to say a prayer, get dunked in some water, know the name of Jesus? I would not think so. I really don't know. But what I do know is that our God is merciful and just. I think we can take comfort in that.

So, we would exist and have remained in a state of innocence? How would we know how to multiply...Adam and Eve didn't know they were naked until their "eyes were opened"? If that was God's design for man...why not start over? Destroy Adam and Eve and begin again..after all they were just new creations....they didn't exist before?

If there was no sin, we would be sinless, as we will be in Heaven. I hope the word sex is allowed on this forum because I am going to use it. I don't believe is sinful, not within the marital relationship, as God has designed it. I don't think there would have been a problem with Adam and Eve having sex, how else do we multiply? Hold hands? God commanded multiplication before sin. If God had commanded Adam and Eve to multiply knowing full well that in order to multiply they MUST sin, that would be really deceptive. Could God have started over at that point? Sure. Did He? No. Do I know why? No. We can go over the "well He could have done x,y,z..." all day long but there is no point because it didn't happen that way. It is not the reality we are dealing with.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men care, that they might have joy.

When the Missionaries sprung this passage on me, I had one of my "You cannot be serious?!?!" moments. Let me ask this. Do you believe Jesus was sinless? I do. I also believe that He felt joy, He did an amazing amount of good, and he was sinless...just as Adam and Eve were before the fall.

We believe that the Creation Fall and Atonement are all part of God's plan of Salvation. You are correct in that had Adam and Eve not fallen, their would have been no need for an Atonement. Christ was not an after thought. "OOPS...that darn devil has foiled my plans for my creations..so I will send Jesus to save them". Remember God is Omniscient.

In my mind, if God created us to sin, why in the world did He tell us not to, knowing full well He created us to? Why would God send His son to die for a people He created to sin? For me this just sets up a "It's all God's fault" viewpoint. I believe God is omniscient, but I don't believe He created Adam and Eve to sin...did He create them with that ability, yes, but with that purpose, NO! Did God know we would sin? I have to think He did. I am glad He didn't scrap me.

Um...ok...BUT again, if it was God's plan for his creations to remain in the perfect sinless state that Adam and Eve were in before the Fall....why not just start over? He nearly did at the time of Noah and the flood. Sounds like it was part of a greater plan..no? Agency ...freedom to choose and all.

Why not start over? Again, I don't know. I just know He didn't.

Why does God care so much if we are only creations...if our existence has only been the span of a few years...really nothing in the Eternal sense?

Being human, we will never understand (at least this side of Heaven) the love God has for us. Not in an eternal past sense (that we lived) but we will live in an eternal future sense. Ha! Eternal past and future...yeah...makes sense, huh?

How do you feel about Baptism? Is it necessary? (Christ himself was baptized by John the Baptist and Christ said to Baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost).

I believe that everyone who proclaims faith in Christ should be baptized because we are commanded to be baptized, Christ was baptized, the conversion accounts we see in Acts are all immediately followed by baptism. I was baptized (I know my baptism is not legit to LDS but I think God accepts it ).

What about the Catholic Church...they claim Apostolic succession form Peter? If they strayed and are incorrect or Apostate from Christ's teachings or Church that he established....doesn't it follow that Protestants (meaning to Protest...the Catholic Church) are in some regard just offshoots of the Church in which they left?

This may shock you, I don't know, but I don't think the Catholics have it all right, or the Baptists, or the Methodists, or the Lutherans, or the LDS. Are they offshoots? In that they subscribe to many of the same "basics" (the virgin birth, the Trinity, Christ's life, death and resurrection, Christ being the only way to Heaven). I don't believe a great apostasy, defined by the LDS church, has occurred.

Hope this helps, bytor. Did you believe any of this or did you just not know?

[Justice]

So, whether we are born a sinner, or become a sinner at the moment of our first transgression, I am not sure it really matters.

It matters who you blame or whether or not you have a choice.

If you are born into the world with a disposition and un-resistable tendancy to sin, then you aren't accountable. Mnay who belioeve this blame Adam and Eve for their sins.

If you sin because you choose it then there is no one but yourselof to blame, and then through Christ sin can be overcome, as it is not an un-resistable urge.

Man is dual natured. We have a physical body which desires pleasure and satisfaction, which are but temporary.

We also have a spiritual side which desired good and love, which bring joy, which are not temporary.

There really is a big difference if you think about it.

[bytor2112]

n my mind, if God created us to sin, why in the world did He tell us not to, knowing full well He created us to? Why would God send His son to die for a people He created to sin? For me this just sets up a "It's all God's fault" viewpoint. I believe God is omniscient, but I don't believe He created Adam and Eve to sin...did He create them with that ability, yes, but with that purpose, NO! Did God know we would sin? I have to think He did. I am glad He didn't scrap me.

He didn't create us to sin....we chose to come here and enter into a mortal probationary period in order to learn and grow. HE knew we would sin and thus be separated from HIM, that is why HE provided a Savior.....a way to return unto HIM. It is difficult to understand when you believe you are only a creation and did not exist before your sojourn here in mortality. Our understanding of Christ's mission is that HE chose to come here and Atone for the sins of mankind.

[bytor2112]

What manner must we come to Christ? Faith in Christ. As to those before Christ, God made a way for them as well. Speaking of the Jews. They also had to live by faith. There are passages in the NT referring to OT persons saying that their faith was credited to them as rightesousness. But they also had to make sacrifices for their sins, blood sacrifices to atone for their sin. With Christ, his blood atones for our sin. Again talking about those that have not, or will not hear...I honestly don't know, bytor. Romans tells us that God's creation tells confirms He is creator and God. Are they going to know to say a prayer, get dunked in some water, know the name of Jesus? I would not think so. I really don't know. But what I do know is that our God is merciful and just. I think we can take comfort in that.

So, why would God allow you to be "saved" by having faith in Jesus Christ and for others HE would create some arbitrary system? Did you read the verses from Peter? We have Temples on the earth in order to redeem the dead. The dead....as spirits are learning about Jesus Christ and thought they don't have a body again until the resurrection, we baptize for them by proxy, so, that they may come unto salvation in the exact same manner as I must.

[bytor2112]

If there was no sin, we would be sinless, as we will be in Heaven. I hope the word sex is allowed on this forum because I am going to use it. I don't believe is sinful, not within the marital relationship, as God has designed it. I don't think there would have been a problem with Adam and Eve having sex, how else do we multiply? Hold hands? God commanded multiplication before sin. If God had commanded Adam and Eve to multiply knowing full well that in order to multiply they MUST sin, that would be really deceptive. Could God have started over at that point? Sure. Did He? No. Do I know why? No. We can go over the "well He could have done x,y,z..." all day long but there is no point because it didn't happen that way. It is not the reality we are dealing with.

Surprised you haven't been banned....using words like s-x!! Adam and Eve were innocent, they no more knew how to have sex than two toddlers would. The Fall was planned. Either way....by partaking of the forbidden fruit or not being fruitful and multiplying the Fall would have occurred....because they were disobedient. We don't believe that Adam and Eve sinned....rather they transgressed or were disobedient. Adam fell that men might be.....so that you and I could be born and gain a physical body, have trials and tests and ultimately make our own choices. Because of the Fall Spiritual and Physical death entered the world. Spiritual death is separation from God and physical death is...death of the body. Jesus Christ provided a means for each of us to overcome Spiritual Death and Physical death.......

[bytor2112]

Do you believe Jesus was sinless? I do. I also believe that He felt joy, He did an amazing amount of good, and he was sinless...just as Adam and Eve were before the fall.

Yes....of course. But understand, that Jesus was born into a fallen world.......

[JessicaHarper]

It matters who you blame or whether or not you have a choice.

If you are born into the world with a disposition and un-resistable tendancy to sin, then you aren't accountable. Mnay who belioeve this blame Adam and Eve for their sins.

If you sin because you choose it then there is no one but yourselof to blame, and then through Christ sin can be overcome, as it is not an un-resistable urge.

Man is dual natured. We have a physical body which desires pleasure and satisfaction, which are but temporary.

We also have a spiritual side which desired good and love, which bring joy, which are not temporary.

There really is a big difference if you think about it.

Justice,

Do you believe there is any man on earth that will not choose to sin?

Scripture says ALL MEN fall short...regardless of when we become a sinner, ALL MEN fall short.

Scripture tells us that through one man (Adam) death entered the world. We all inherit that from Adam, we don't have a choice there. It is simply the nature of the here and now.

[bytor2112]

Being human, we will never understand (at least this side of Heaven) the love God has for us. Not in an eternal past sense (that we lived) but we will live in an eternal future sense. Ha! Eternal past and future...yeah...makes sense, huh?

I believe that is difficult to comprehend the love God has for each of us. But, it is so much easier when I understand my relationship to HIM. As I am literally HIS son and lived with HIM before I entered into mortality. I shouted with joy (see Job) when I learned of the plan to come to earth and attain a body and I am so very thankful for Jesus Christ.

[JessicaHarper]

He didn't create us to sin....we chose to come here and enter into a mortal probationary period in order to learn and grow. HE knew we would sin and thus be separated from HIM, that is why HE provided a Savior.....a way to return unto HIM. It is difficult to understand when you believe you are only a creation and did not exist before your sojourn here in mortality. Our understanding of Christ's mission is that HE chose to come here and Atone for the sins of mankind.

I can agree to ALL of this except agreeing to come here to enter into a mortal probationary period. I do believe I am "only" God's creation.

[bytor2112]

Justice,

Do you believe there is any man on earth that will not choose to sin?

Scripture says ALL MEN fall short...regardless of when we become a sinner, ALL MEN fall short.

Scripture tells us that through one man (Adam) death entered the world. We all inherit that from Adam, we don't have a choice there. It is simply the nature of the here and now.

I choose not to sin all the time. I choose not to cheat on my wife or kill my neighbor. Am I perfect in that performance....obviously not. That is why Jesus Christ...that is why the Atonement.

Note: I am perfect in NOT doing the above mentioned sins!

Edited March 1, 2010 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

I can agree to ALL of this except agreeing to come here to enter into a mortal probationary period. I do believe I am "only" God's creation.

Kind of like a plant or a pet?:)

Consider the following:

1. Jesus had a premortal existence. The apostle John, who speaks of Christ as the Word made flesh (John 1:14), opens the book that bears his name by testifying, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1.) In other words, in the beginning was Christ, and Christ was with God, and Christ himself also was a God. The important thing for our purpose at the moment, however, is simply that “in the beginning” was Christ.

The apostle Paul also says that in the days of Moses—more than twelve hundred years before Jesus was born—the children of Israel “drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” (1 Cor. 10:4.)

If any more Bible evidence should be needed to establish the premortal existence of the Savior, you may wish to note a statement that Jesus himself made the night before his crucifixion. With apparent longing for the glory of his previous existence, he prayed, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:5.)

Thus we see that Jesus was in existence long before his advent into mortality. Let us now check to see whether the Bible teaches that people other than the Savior had a previous spirit life.

2. Jeremiah had a premortal existence. Through revelation the prophet Jeremiah learned something about the preexistence of his own soul. The Lord spoke to him and said, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jer. 1:5.)

Since, as this passage states, the Lord knew Jeremiah before he was born and sanctified Jeremiah before he was born and ordained Jeremiah before he was born, it must be clear that Jeremiah was in existence before his mortal birth.

3. Job had a premortal existence. On one occasion the Lord asked the prophet Job, “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

“When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4, 7.)

Now although the Lord didn’t tell Job where he was before the foundations of the earth were laid, the very question implies that Job was in existence somewhere—and not only Job but “all the sons of God.” And when we recall that the Bible teaches that we are the sons of God (“the offspring of God” is the way the apostle Paul phrases it in Acts 17:29), we can’t help but conclude that we were in existence with Job (and Jeremiah and the Lord Jesus Christ) before the earth was created.

4. Jesus made no attempt to correct his apostles when they expressed a belief in man’s premortal existence. This conclusion is based on an incident narrated in the ninth chapter of John. In reference to a blind man the apostles asked Jesus, “Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2.) Note that their question was not simply whether the man’s parents had sinned before he was born but whether the man himself had sinned before he was born. Their query plainly shows that they believed that the man had been both alive and capable of sinning before he was born.

Jesus explained (John 9:3) that neither the man nor his parents had sinned, but the striking fact is that he made no attempt to challenge or correct or alter their basic assumption that the man had had a premortal existence.

5. Certain passages of the Bible make sense only in the light of man’s premortal existence. We as Latter-day Saints understand that during the course of man’s premortal spirit career one third of God’s children rebelled and followed Satan. (See D&C 29:36–38; Moses 4:1–4; Abr. 3:22–28.) This understanding gives meaning to a number of biblical passages bearing on the expulsion from heaven of certain disobedient beings. Consider, for example, 2 Peter 2:4 [2 Pet. 2:4], Jude 1:6, and Revelation 12:7–9 [Rev. 12:7–9].

While the several passages mentioned in the foregoing explanation may or may not offer “conclusive evidence” of the premortal existence of man, I am confident, if you are sincere in your search for divine truth, that they will offer you sufficient evidence to incite an earnest, prayerful inquiry into the doctrines and claims of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Edited March 1, 2010 by bytor2112

[JessicaHarper]

Surprised you haven't been banned....using words like s-x!! Adam and Eve were innocent, they no more knew how to have sex than two toddlers would. The Fall was planned. Either way....by partaking of the forbidden fruit or not being fruitful and multiplying the Fall would have occurred....because they were disobedient. We don't believe that Adam and Eve sinned....rather they transgressed or were disobedient. Adam fell that men might be.....so that you and I could be born and gain a physical body, have trials and tests and ultimately make our own choices. Because of the Fall Spiritual and Physical death entered the world. Spiritual death is separation from God and physical death is...death of the body. Jesus Christ provided a means for each of us to overcome Spiritual Death and Physical death.......

Are sinless and innocent the same thing? We are turning Adam and Eve into being innocent/naive rather than sinless. I wonder if they mean the same thing. They were obviously not toddlers, got created them to make toddlers.

We are not going to agree about this. But it is nice to understand what one believes.

[JessicaHarper]

Yes....of course. But understand, that Jesus was born into a fallen world.......

So, do you believe that only the physical world (other than humans) was effected by the fall?

[JessicaHarper]

I believe that is difficult to comprehend the love God has for each of us. But, it is so much easier when I understand my relationship to HIM. As I am literally HIS son and lived with HIM before I entered into mortality. I shouted with joy (see Job) when I learned of the plan to come to earth and attain a body and I am so very thankful for Jesus Christ.

I believe that I am the adopted child of God, brought near by the blood of Christ! I am thankful for Christ as well.

Maybe one day we will agree, bytor. But, again, it is nice to know what the other believes. Suppose I am nerd finding this fun.

[JessicaHarper]

I choose not to sin all the time. I choose not to cheat on my wife or kill my neighbor. Am I perfect in that performance....obviously not. That is why Jesus Christ...that is why the Atonement.

Note: I am perfect in NOT doing the above mentioned sins!

Hey, I do not do those things either! We agree, bytor, we agree!

[bytor2112]

I believe that I am the adopted child of God, brought near by the blood of Christ! I am thankful for Christ as well.

Maybe one day we will agree, bytor. But, again, it is nice to know what the other believes. Suppose I am nerd finding this fun.

Not at all.....till we come to a unity of the faith!:)

[bytor2112]

Are sinless and innocent the same thing? We are turning Adam and Eve into being innocent/naive rather than sinless. I wonder if they mean the same thing. They were obviously not toddlers, got created them to make toddlers.

We are not going to agree about this. But it is nice to understand what one believes.

Sinless and innocent....in the case of Adam and Eve, yes. Were they not innocent/naive...they didn't know they were naked.

8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Edited March 2, 2010 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

I believe that I am the adopted child of God, brought near by the blood of Christ! I am thankful for Christ as well.

What does this verse mean to you?

From Hebrews Ch. 12

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

If he is the Father of our Spirits...doesn't it follow that we existed before HE created our bodies?

[JessicaHarper]

Kind of like a plant or a pet?:)

Consider the following:

1. Jesus had a premortal existence. The apostle John, who speaks of Christ as the Word made flesh (John 1:14), opens the book that bears his name by testifying, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1.) In other words, in the beginning was Christ, and Christ was with God, and Christ himself also was a God. The important thing for our purpose at the moment, however, is simply that “in the beginning” was Christ.

The apostle Paul also says that in the days of Moses—more than twelve hundred years before Jesus was born—the children of Israel “drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” (1 Cor. 10:4.)

If any more Bible evidence should be needed to establish the premortal existence of the Savior, you may wish to note a statement that Jesus himself made the night before his crucifixion. With apparent longing for the glory of his previous existence, he prayed, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:5.)

Thus we see that Jesus was in existence long before his advent into mortality. Let us now check to see whether the Bible teaches that people other than the Savior had a previous spirit life.

2. Jeremiah had a premortal existence. Through revelation the prophet Jeremiah learned something about the preexistence of his own soul. The Lord spoke to him and said, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jer. 1:5.)

Since, as this passage states, the Lord knew Jeremiah before he was born and sanctified Jeremiah before he was born and ordained Jeremiah before he was born, it must be clear that Jeremiah was in existence before his mortal birth.

3. Job had a premortal existence. On one occasion the Lord asked the prophet Job, “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

“When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4, 7.)

Now although the Lord didn’t tell Job where he was before the foundations of the earth were laid, the very question implies that Job was in existence somewhere—and not only Job but “all the sons of God.” And when we recall that the Bible teaches that we are the sons of God (“the offspring of God” is the way the apostle Paul phrases it in Acts 17:29), we can’t help but conclude that we were in existence with Job (and Jeremiah and the Lord Jesus Christ) before the earth was created.

4. Jesus made no attempt to correct his apostles when they expressed a belief in man’s premortal existence. This conclusion is based on an incident narrated in the ninth chapter of John. In reference to a blind man the apostles asked Jesus, “Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2.) Note that their question was not simply whether the man’s parents had sinned before he was born but whether the man himself had sinned before he was born. Their query plainly shows that they believed that the man had been both alive and capable of sinning before he was born.

Jesus explained (John 9:3) that neither the man nor his parents had sinned, but the striking fact is that he made no attempt to challenge or correct or alter their basic assumption that the man had had a premortal existence.

5. Certain passages of the Bible make sense only in the light of man’s premortal existence. We as Latter-day Saints understand that during the course of man’s premortal spirit career one third of God’s children rebelled and followed Satan. (See D&C 29:36–38; Moses 4:1–4; Abr. 3:22–28.) This understanding gives meaning to a number of biblical passages bearing on the expulsion from heaven of certain disobedient beings. Consider, for example, 2 Peter 2:4 [2 Pet. 2:4], Jude 1:6, and Revelation 12:7–9 [Rev. 12:7–9].

While the several passages mentioned in the foregoing explanation may or may not offer “conclusive evidence” of the premortal existence of man, I am confident, if you are sincere in your search for divine truth, that they will offer you sufficient evidence to incite an earnest, prayerful inquiry into the doctrines and claims of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Yeah, kind of like a plant or pet, except I was made in God's image!

All of the passages you presented do not prove to me that we existed as spirits before our birth. Many of the verses simply speak of God's omniscience. I have no problem believing Christ existed before us, He is God. One third of the angels rebelled, I do not believe I am the same as an angel.

I can see where these passages would give support to someone who had preconceived belief in us being literal spirit children of God and then grabbing for any Biblical "proof" they could. But I do not see this belief laid out in the Bible, surely not plainly.

[JessicaHarper]

If he is the Father of our Spirits...doesn't it follow that we existed before HE created our bodies?

No, to me, it means God created our spirits.