Jacob 4

[Justice]

Jacob 4:

1 Now behold, it came to pass that I, Jacob, having ministered much unto my people in word, (and I cannot write but a little of my words, because of the difficulty of engraving our words upon plates) and we know that the things which we write upon plates must remain;

2 But whatsoever things we write upon anything save it be upon plates must perish and vanish away; but we can write a few words upon plates, which will give our children, and also our beloved brethren, a small degree of knowledge concerning us, or concerning their fathers—

They did things the hard way just so that their words would be saved.

3 Now in this thing we do rejoice; and we labor diligently to engraven these words upon plates, hoping that our beloved brethren and our children will receive them with thankful hearts, and look upon them that they may learn with joy and not with sorrow, neither with contempt, concerning their first parents.

They did it the hard way because they want to share what they knew. Part of what they knew was that our first parents (surely Adam and Eve are referenced in part) should be looked at in the proper light.

4 For, for this intent have we written these things, that they may know that we knew of Christ, and we had a hope of his glory many hundred years before his coming; and not only we ourselves had a hope of his glory, but also all the holy prophets which were before us.

They want us to know that they knew of Christ, and that the prophets wrote of Christ.

5 Behold, they believed in Christ and worshiped the Father in his name, and also we worship the Father in his name. And for this intent we keep the law of Moses, it pointing our souls to him; and for this cause it is sanctified unto us for righteousness, even as it was accounted unto Abraham in the wilderness to be obedient unto the commands of God in offering up his son Isaac, which is a similitude of God and his Only Begotten Son.

6 Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea.

Remember, "the Law" is the writings of Moses, or the first 5 books of the Bible, and "the Prophets" is most of the rest of the Old Testament.

Through Christ they were able to do all things, including mighty miracles and commanding the plants and elements.

7 Nevertheless, the Lord God showeth us our weakness that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things.

To PC, and anyone else who is wondering if the Book of Mormon is true, this is the purpose for which it was written. One is to "come to Christ" because of the Book of Mormon. It's more than a book of help or to clarify doctrine. It is meant to prove the reality of Jesus Christ.

Either you believe it does or you believe it doesn't. There is no middle ground; no gray areas. When you decide whether or not the Book of Mormon is true, you either side with it (and in my view, with Christ) or you take a side against it.

The comparison between believing in the Bible but not the Book of Mormon is like the Jews believing in the Old Testament but not the New. The Book of Mormon is ANOTHER Testament of Jesus Christ. To say you believe in the Messiah of the Old Testament but not the Jesus Christ of the New Testament, is like saying you believe in the Savior in the New Testament but not the Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon. It is the exact same comparison, and carries the exact same consequence.

Using the Book of Mormon for guidance or doctrine, but not belving in the Jesus Christ that is the source of it's testimony, is like a Chrsitian who uses the Bible as a guide in life, but does not come to and accept Jesus Christ.

The Book of Mormon is true; just as true as the Bible. It is another testament of Jesus Christ... the SAME Jesus CHrist who was born of the virgin Mary, lived a perfect life, was betrayed, and crucified for the sins of the world.

It is Another Testament of Jesus Christ, not a Testament of Another Jesus Christ.

Just as the Jews denied that Jesus was their promised Messaih, it is impossible to believe in Jesus Christ and deny the Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon. You cannot reject the Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon and accept the Jesus Christ in the Bible.

This is why it is imperative for every Christian to take a side. The Book of Mormon must be read to come to know if it is the same Jesus Christ. If you come to know it is, then you accept it and know it's true. If you do not, then you cannot accept it as truth, and therefore reject it as truth based on it's claim and promise.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Justice

[JessicaHarper]

Justice,

I am currently reading the BoM, on a schedule that has me finishing it in about 3 months. I am currently in 1 Nephi 18 (I am just getting started).

There is no doubt in my mind that I am a born again disciple of Jesus Christ. I prefer to say disciple or follower as opposed to believer because the Bible (James) tell us that even the demons believe.

I find myself much on the same page as PC, from what I have read. If the Spirit shows me that the BoM is true, thus confirming JS as a true prophet of God, and also confirming the restored gospel...I will follow without hesitation. My want is to be in the TRUTH, regardless of what it may be. The TRUTH will set you free.

At the moment, the Spirit has not confirmed that with me.

I am a Southern Baptist and have been since my conversion. I will say that until the Spirit shows me otherwise, I do accept, believe and follow the Jesus Christ of the Bible, while currently rejecting the Jesus Christ of the BoM. It is not impossible. But, I understand what you are saying.

[bytor2112]

I am a Southern Baptist and have been since my conversion. I will say that until the Spirit shows me otherwise, I do accept, believe and follow the Jesus Christ of the Bible, while currently rejecting the Jesus Christ of the BoM. It is not impossible. But, I understand what you are saying.

The Jesus Christ of the Bible IS the Jesus Christ of the Book of Mormon...their is only one Christ. I am a former Southern Baptist.....best wishes on your journey.

[Justice]

I really do apprecaite what you're saying. I really don't want to go very deep here, because it's really not the message of the Church. To most people who are looking for truth, they read the Book of Mormon and make a fairly fast decision. My words are more directed at someone who had "read and pondered" on the Book of Mormon and its teachings for years, but doesn't make a decision, maybe they don't even want to try as they know they should. I really don't think this happens very often.

Please understand I am not comparing you personally to anyone or anything, same goes for PC. The comparisons I make, and am about to make, are based solely on the stipulation that the Book of Mormon is true. If you believed it was true, you would feel the same way.

You know, the Jews who did not believe in Jesus Christ, or had not gained that witness, thought THEY believed in the Messiah of the Old Testament. In their mind, they were following the law and words of God, and waiting for when the Messiah would come. In their view, it was the Christians who were preverting the right way, and is why they used the derrogatory designation of "Christian" to differentiate them from the "true believers" the Jews (in their mind). I don't think the term "Mormon" is very different today.

You see how it was *really* impossible for them to believe the words of the Old Testament, as they were really intended, unless they believed that Jesus Christ was this promised Messiah? Could they be right in claiming to believe and follow the God of the Old Testament, yet reject Jesus as the Messiah?

As previously stipulated, this is true only if Jesus Christ truly was/is the Messaih prophesied about in the Old Testament.

That is the stipulation I make also. If the Jesus Christ that is taught and preached in the Book of Mormon IS the same Jesus Christ of the New Testament, then you really can't believe *just* the Jesus Christ in the Bible. The comparison to Jews who claim to believe in the Messiah, but not Jesus Christ, is the same scenario and I used it so you could understand it from my perspective.

And, yes... I wish you the best in your reading, and I hope you take it seriously. Take time to ponder the things you read and suppose if they are true. I know the Spirit will work in you if your motive is pure.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Justice

[JessicaHarper]

The Jesus Christ of the Bible IS the Jesus Christ of the Book of Mormon...their is only one Christ. I am a former Southern Baptist.....best wishes on your journey.

You are a former SB? How long were you SB? As an adult? What is your conversion story? Very interested to hear.

[bytor2112]

You are a former SB? How long were you SB? As an adult? What is your conversion story? Very interested to hear.

I was an SB until I was 19 and my wife until she was 22. I was very opposed to the LDS faith as was my wife....nice people, but they are members of a cult. During a conversation...one of many...with an LDS friend....I felt something that was indescribable. A peace and calm assurance that I had never experienced and at that moment I knew that what he had been sharing with me....was absolutely true. I had been trying to convert him to true Christianity and help him be "saved". I wasn't seeking or expecting it.

My wife converted when she met some LDS missionaries. She was a very faithful SB and had no interest in changing. She began talking to the missionaries and over a few week period she had many life changing experiences with the Holy Ghost and was baptized....much to the chagrin of her family.

Our beliefs are foreign and absolutely wrong sounding to an SB for sure. Yet, many questions I had sought answers for while a Baptist were answered and I was like...yep, I had always instinctively believed that.

Abbreviated version for sure.....again, best wishes on your journey.

[JessicaHarper]

I really do apprecaite what you're saying. I really don't want to go very deep here, because it's really not the message of the Church. To most people who are looking for truth, they read the Book of Mormon and make a fairly fast decision. My words are more directed at someone who had "read and pondered" on the Book of Mormon and its teachings for years, but doesn't make a decision, maybe they don't even want to try as they know they should. I really don't think this happens very often.

Please understand I am not comparing you personally to anyone or anything, same goes for PC. The comparisons I make, and am about to make, are based solely on the stipulation that the Book of Mormon is true. If you believed it was true, you would feel the same way.

You know, the Jews who did not believe in Jesus Christ, or had not gained that witness, thought THEY believed in the Messiah of the Old Testament. In their mind, they were following the law and words of God, and waiting for when the Messiah would come. In their view, it was the Christians who were preverting the right way, and is why they used the derrogatory designation of "Christian" to differentiate them from the "true believers" the Jews (in their mind). I don't think the term "Mormon" is very different today.

You see how it was *really* impossible for them to believe the words of the Old Testament, as they were really intended, unless they believed that Jesus Christ was this promised Messiah? Could they be right in claiming to believe and follow the God of the Old Testament, yet reject Jesus as the Messiah?

As previously stipulated, this is true only if Jesus Christ truly was/is the Messaih prophesied about in the Old Testament.

That is the stipulation I make also. If the Jesus Christ that is taught and preached in the Book of Mormon IS the same Jesus Christ of the New Testament, then you really can't believe *just* the Jesus Christ in the Bible. The comparison to Jews who claim to believe in the Messiah, but not Jesus Christ, is the same scenario and I used it so you could understand it from my perspective.

I wish I knew how to separate certain quotes, it would make this flow better. Oh, well.

Justice, I understand where you are coming from and am not offended by what you say.

I have been studying with a Missionary since October. God Bless him. I have harassed him with questions, questions and more questions. I found him at mormon.org.

I often thought and said that I am glad that I did not actually live in the time of Christ, as a Jew. I have to ask myself if I would have recognized the true Jesus, rather than what many Jews believed about Christ.

I fully agree that IF the Jesus Christ of the BoM IS the same Jesus Christ of the Bible, you cannot believe in one and not the other, they are the same.

I do question and ponder. I make very thought-out decisions. I do not anticipate that I will make a decision quickly regarding the BoM or LDS church. Maybe God has a different plan, but I don't take this journey lightly.

[JessicaHarper]

...Our beliefs are foreign and absolutely wrong sounding to an SB for sure...

That is not an understatement!

There have been time when I have read something on these forums, or when speaking with my missionary, that I have thought "You cannot be serious?!" Ha! I am sure you felt that way at one time.

[bytor2112]

That is not an understatement!

There have been time when I have read something on these forums, or when speaking with my missionary, that I have thought "You cannot be serious?!" Ha! I am sure you felt that way at one time.

Yep. ( Since my conversion, my mother has been baptized..a former SB and Grandmother, a former Episcopalian. )

[Vanhin]

My father was a Southern Baptist before he converted. Believe it or not, Cleon Skousen's, "The First Two Thousand Years" played a huge role in his conversion. My mother (formerly a Lutheran) was already a member then and my father used to go with her to church activites and such. I guess they used to sell books or something like that in their ward, and my father loves to read and loved the Bible. He picked up The First Two Thousand Years, and agreed with it for the most part and that led to his conversion. A little different as far as conversion stories go.

Vanhin

[wondering23]

I'm reading the BoM myself as well, I read it before bed when I'm not to exhausted so I can't ignore it. like you Jessica I want to read it slowly to get a real understanding of the book.

While I have had some doubts over the last few years I have realised that I do except Jesus Christ as my lord and saviour.

For me with the Bible I do accept some parts as true, but I have doubts of the validity of the customs and rules of behaviour set out in the OT. My main issue is how much has been mistranslated over time that sections are a mixed up version of what God truly wanted us to follow.

I am still figuring out if I have faith the BoM is another testament of Jesus Christ. I'm currently up to 2Nephi 8. So far something in 2Nephi2 particulary the comments of Free Agency have touched me and I

ve been studying that chapter for days but I don't think I've testimony on the BoM.

I'm a logical thinker who was raised Pentecostal with a strict belief on Mormonism being misguided. I'd rather wait to read the whole book, study what I've learnt and study the faith and figure out if I have faith and testimony on the BoM.

Edited February 27, 2010 by wondering23

[Justice]

This is the ultimate expression of what you already beleive.

I know you believe that your works mean nothing toward your salvation. However, with Christ, all things are possible. I know you believe that.

Reading the Book of Mormon could be called a work. As long as it is studied and examined as a physical work, with your own understanding, comparing tit for tat with what you know, then it will mean nothing. However, if you read it with the desire to know Christ and if it is true, regardless of the consequences, then with Christ we can come to know all things.

So, don't get too hung up on comparing it to things that you know. There's a distinct chance that some of those things you know aren't necessarily right,( ) and would make it more difficult for you to receive revelation concerning it's truthfulness.

[JessicaHarper]

This is the ultimate expression of what you already beleive.

I know you believe that your works mean nothing toward your salvation. However, with Christ, all things are possible. I know you believe that.

Reading the Book of Mormon could be called a work. As long as it is studied and examined as a physical work, with your own understanding, comparing tit for tat with what you know, then it will mean nothing. However, if you read it with the desire to know Christ and if it is true, regardless of the consequences, then with Christ we can come to know all things.

So, don't get too hung up on comparing it to things that you know. There's a distinct chance that some of those things you know aren't necessarily right,( ) and would make it more difficult for you to receive revelation concerning it's truthfulness.

I would not say that my works mean nothing towards my salvation. I do not believe that my works earn salvation, rather I believe my works are evidence of my salvation. Works are important. The Bible tells us that faith without works is dead. It also tells us that God created us for good works, and that he prepared them beforehand so that we could walk in them (Ephesians 2:10). If works were not important I doubt God would have wasted his time preparing them for us.

To say that I have not, or will not, compare the BoM tit for tat to the Bible, etc., would be naive of me. Just as being LDS makes up much of who you are, being a Southern Baptist Christian makes up much of who I am. Without a doubt, the largest hurdle before me (coming for a SB background) is the belief that hell is a real place, created for those are not in Christ, and SB's believing that the LDS people are not in Christ.

My journey started to fully understand, as much as possible, what the LDS faith teaches and believes. I can read all day long on the internet about what others say the LDS faith teaches, but that will not do me much good...so, I decided to go to the source ( a LDS missionary) and am now reading the BoM.

[JessicaHarper]

I'm reading the BoM myself as well, I read it before bed when I'm not to exhausted so I can't ignore it. like you Jessica I want to read it slowly to get a real understanding of the book.

While I have had some doubts over the last few years I have realised that I do except Jesus Christ as my lord and saviour.

For me with the Bible I do accept some parts as true, but I have doubts of the validity of the customs and rules of behaviour set out in the OT. My main issue is how much has been mistranslated over time that sections are a mixed up version of what God truly wanted us to follow.

I am still figuring out if I have faith the BoM is another testament of Jesus Christ. I'm currently up to 2Nephi 8. So far something in 2Nephi2 particulary the comments of Free Agency have touched me and I

ve been studying that chapter for days but I don't think I've testimony on the BoM.

I'm a logical thinker who was raised Pentecostal with a strict belief on Mormonism being misguided. I'd rather wait to read the whole book, study what I've learnt and study the faith and figure out if I have faith and testimony on the BoM.

I also generally read at night. I have a toddler so my days are filled with parenting her.

Personally, I do not doubt the customs and rules of behavior set forth in the OT. I am just thankful that I did not live during that time.

As to the Bible being the Word of God, much comes down to having faith that God has preserved His word. I am also reading through a book called "How We Got the Bible" that is very interesting. We must ask ourselves if God could have preserved His word? Of course! He is God! The same applies to the BoM, could God have preserved the BoM, and spoken to the alleged prophets, writers, therein? Of course He could have! Did He? The jury is still out for me, but I do not doubt His ability to do so.

Pray. As cliche as it sounds. Ask for God to open your eyes to His truth.

[bytor2112]

Jessica,

What are the current teachings in the SB faith regarding those who will go to hell? I never completely understood this when I was a member. Children who do not know of Christ? Those who lived without hearing of Christ? Those living before the time of Christ....like in the days of the flood? How can they be saved in Christ?

What about the millions who claim to have accepted Christ....but have no real knowledge of what the Bible says about Christ and they just draw their own conclusions regarding HIM?

Also I have posted from the LDS Bible dictionary about LDS beliefs regarding hell:

An English translation of the Hebrew word Shoel, hell signifies an abode of departed spirits and corresponds to the Greek Hades. In common speech it generally denotes the place of torment for the wicked, although it has been often held, both in the Jewish and the Christian churches, that Hades (meaning broadly the place of all departed spirits) consists of two parts, paradise and Gehenna, one the abode of the righteous and the other of the disobedient. “Gehenna,” or “Gehenna of fire,” is the Greek equivalent of the “valley of Hinnom,” a deep glen of Jerusalem where the idolatrous Jews offered their children to Moloch (2 Chr. 28: 3; 2 Chr. 33: 6; Jer. 7: 31; Jer. 19: 2-6). It was afterwards used as a place for burning the refuse of the city (2 Kgs. 23: 10), and in that way became symbolical of the place of torment (Matt. 5: 22, 29-30; Matt. 10: 28; Matt. 18: 9; Matt. 23: 15, 33; Mark 9: 43, 45, 47; Luke 12: 5; James 3: 6). Expressions about “hell-fire” are probably due to the impression produced on men’s minds by the sight of this ceaseless burning, and are figurative of the torment of those who willfully disobey God.

In latter-day revelation hell is spoken of in at least two senses. One is the temporary abode in the spirit world of those who were disobedient in this mortal life. It is between death and the resurrection, and persons who receive the telestial glory will abide there until the last resurrection (D&C 76: 84-85, 106), at which time they will go to the telestial glory. In this sense the Book of Mormon speaks of spiritual death as hell (2 Ne. 9: 10-12). Hell, as thus defined, will have an end, when all the captive spirits have paid the price of their sins and enter into a degree of glory after their resurrection. Statements about an everlasting hell (Hel. 6: 28; Moro. 8: 13) must be interpreted in their proper context in the light of D&C 19: 4-12, which defines eternal and endless punishment.

On the other hand, the devil and his angels, including the sons of perdition, are assigned to a place spoken of as a lake of fire - a figure of eternal anguish. This condition is sometimes called hell in the scriptures (2 Pet. 2: 4; D&C 29: 38; D&C 88: 113). This kind of hell, which is after the resurrection and judgment, is exclusively for the devil and his angels, and is not the same as that consisting only of the period between death and resurrection. The one group are redeemed from hell and inherit some degree of glory. The other receive no glory. They continue in spiritual darkness. For them the conditions of hell remain.

[Justice]

I would not say that my works mean nothing towards my salvation. I do not believe that my works earn salvation, rather I believe my works are evidence of my salvation. Works are important. The Bible tells us that faith without works is dead. It also tells us that God created us for good works, and that he prepared them beforehand so that we could walk in them (Ephesians 2:10). If works were not important I doubt God would have wasted his time preparing them for us.

I'm surprised.

Every other SB I've spoken to (and that's a LOT) does not believe this about works.

Very good answer. I only said what I said because I *assumed* you believed the same as the SBs I've spoken to. My bad.

I think you'll be just fine. :)

[JessicaHarper]

I'm surprised.

Every other SB I've spoken to (and that's a LOT) does not believe this about works.

Very good answer. I only said what I said because I *assumed* you believed the same as the SBs I've spoken to. My bad.

I think you'll be just fine. :)

I am glad I am not those other SB's...in the here and now, and also in eternity.

You are fine. Many people assume that. I attend a SB church, but I serve Christ.

[JessicaHarper]

Jessica,

What are the current teachings in the SB faith regarding those who will go to hell? I never completely understood this when I was a member. Children who do not know of Christ? Those who lived without hearing of Christ? Those living before the time of Christ....like in the days of the flood? How can they be saved in Christ?

What about the millions who claim to have accepted Christ....but have no real knowledge of what the Bible says about Christ and they just draw their own conclusions regarding HIM?

Also I have posted from the LDS Bible dictionary about LDS beliefs regarding hell:

I just briefly checked out the Baptist Faith and Message and here are a few items of possible interest:

This is regarding man.

"Man is the special creation of God, made in His own image. He created them male and female as the crowning work of His creation. The gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God's creation. In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God. The sacredness of human personality is evident in that God created man in His own image, and in that Christ died for man; therefore, every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love.

Genesis 1:26-30; 2:5,7,18-22; 3; 9:6; Psalms 1; 8:3-6; 32:1-5; 51:5; Isaiah 6:5; Jeremiah 17:5; Matthew 16:26; Acts 17:26-31; Romans 1:19-32; 3:10-18,23; 5:6,12,19; 6:6; 7:14-25; 8:14-18,29; 1 Corinthians 1:21-31; 15:19,21-22; Ephesians 2:1-22; Colossians 1:21-22; 3:9-11."

Here is what is says about salvation.

"Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.

A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.

Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.

B. Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.

C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life.

D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.

Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5."

[JessicaHarper]

bytor,

As far as children, those who have never heard, etc., I don't know. Only God does. I know some people like to throw around an age where a person becomes accountable for their sin, but I believe it is different for every person. There comes a time where the Holy Spirit will draw a person to the truth, if a person rejects that...well, I am not sure, but I would not want to be that person.

Romans 1:20 speaks about God being seen in His creation and says that "they are without excuse." For me, nature, the mountains, streams, children, etc. are a testimony that we didn't come from nothing. There wasn't some cosmic explosion one day that created life. To me, that is ridiculous.

I think there is a blanket statement that can be made that you either go to Heaven or Hell, but it stops there. Only God knows our heart. Only the Holy Spirit can draw someone to faith in Christ, resulting in repentance.

Does this help at all?

A website I have used in the past is gotquestions.org It seems to be written from a conservative, evangelical perspective.

Edited February 27, 2010 by JessicaHarper

[Justice]

By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation.

I'm going to get "technical" here.

"his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin"

I would word it that sin was introduced into the world and man became an agenct unto himself, whether he would choose good or evil.

"Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation."

Once you say men *had* to sin, then you destroy accountability.

I would say since all men chose sin, all men fall short of the glory of God.

This quote you posted from that site is typical of what I hear around here. I live in the Bible belt, predominately Baptist.

As you read the Book of Mormon see if you can see this distinction taught by the Nephite prophets.

[bytor2112]

bytor,

As far as children, those who have never heard, etc., I don't know. Only God does. I know some people like to throw around an age where a person becomes accountable for their sin, but I believe it is different for every person. There comes a time where the Holy Spirit will draw a person to the truth, if a person rejects that...well, I am not sure, but I would not want to be that person.

Romans 1:20 speaks about God being seen in His creation and says that "they are without excuse." For me, nature, the mountains, streams, children, etc. are a testimony that we didn't come from nothing. There wasn't some cosmic explosion one day that created life. To me, that is ridiculous.

I think there is a blanket statement that can be made that you either go to Heaven or Hell, but it stops there. Only God knows our heart. Only the Holy Spirit can draw someone to faith in Christ, resulting in repentance.

Does this help at all?

A website I have used in the past is gotquestions.org It seems to be written from a conservative, evangelical perspective.

Hi Jessica,

Thanks so much for the response. Why wouldn't ALL humankind have to come to salvation in exactly the same way? In other words, why wouldn't God have provided away for all of HIS children (creations to SB's) to be saved? What do you believe that Christ did during the period between HIS crucifixion and resurrection?

If Adam and Eve had not fallen...had not partaken of the "forbidden fruit"...would any of us exist? Would we have born and ALL be living in the Garden of Eden or are we a result of their transgression? If Adam and Eve were destined to live in the Garden....why...how...could God's plan have been frustrated? Wouldn't God have known that Satan would seek to "beguile" Eve? And IF it were God's intent that man remain in the Garden of Eden in a perfect state of sinless innocence.....why not just destroy Adam and Eve and start over? HE nearly did this at the time of the flood...so why not then?

Other questions. Did you exist before you were born? Do you...your spirit...exist after death? If it does....then why wouldn't you have existed before you were born also? Why are you here? What will Eternity be like...if indeed you are saved and ultimately go to heaven? Why would God punish ALL of mankind simply because Adam and Eve transgressed or because someone doesn't understand or care who Christ is and why HE is so vital to everyone's Eternal destiny? Shouldn't ALL of mankind...everyone that has ever existed or that will ever exist....shouldn't they have exactly the same opportunity to hear the Gospel...to learn about Christ and accept HIM? Wouldn't a loving Father in Heaven or caring creator (for SB's) have made a system, designed a plan of salvation that would be completely fair to all? Again, what do you believe that Christ did between HIS crucifixion and HIS resurrection?

Thanks in advance- Bytor

Edited February 28, 2010 by bytor2112

[wondering23]

Thanks for that book rec Jessica, I've ordered it from amazon.

[JessicaHarper]

I'm going to get "technical" here.

"his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin"

I would word it that sin was introduced into the world and man became an agenct unto himself, whether he would choose good or evil.

"Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation."

Once you say men *had* to sin, then you destroy accountability.

I would say since all men chose sin, all men fall short of the glory of God.

This quote you posted from that site is typical of what I hear around here. I live in the Bible belt, predominately Baptist.

As you read the Book of Mormon see if you can see this distinction taught by the Nephite prophets.

There is no doubt in my mind that we are born into a fallen world. You can see sin's destruction everywhere...death and sickness, etc. Scripture tells us, like you stated, that ALL fall short of the glory of God. So, whether we are born a sinner, or become a sinner at the moment of our first transgression, I am not sure it really matters. There are denominations within mainline Christianity that debate this. For instance, we have friends who are members of the Church of Christ and they do not believe that we are born sinners.

I do understand what you are saying about men having no choice but to sin and that negating accountability.

[JessicaHarper]

Why wouldn't ALL humankind have to come to salvation in exactly the same way? In other words, why wouldn't God have provided away for all of HIS children (creations to SB's) to be saved?

God did provide a way for ALL to come to salvation in the same way, through His son, Jesus Christ. There is no salvation apart from Christ.

What do you believe that Christ did during the period between HIS crucifixion and resurrection?

I really do not know. But I do "like" the LDS theory.

If Adam and Eve had not fallen...had not partaken of the "forbidden fruit"...would any of us exist?

I believe we would. God would not have given the command to be fruitful and multiply had it not been possible.

Would we have born and ALL be living in the Garden of Eden or are we a result of their transgression?

Would we all fit into the Garden of Eden? Would I even be born since my father was married/divorced before he married my mother? I am not sure we can answer that questions because the reality is that we live in a fallen, sinful world.

If Adam and Eve were destined to live in the Garden....why...how...could God's plan have been frustrated?

There would have been no need for God's plan of salvation had Adam and Eve not sinned. The plan of salvation through Jesus Christ is a RESULT of the fall.

Wouldn't God have known that Satan would seek to "beguile" Eve?

I am sure. I have asked the same question.

And IF it were God's intent that man remain in the Garden of Eden in a perfect state of sinless innocence.....why not just destroy Adam and Eve and start over? HE nearly did this at the time of the flood...so why not then?

Free will, or agency...we are not puppets.

Did you exist before you were born?

I do not think so. I believe I came into existence sometime around August 1982.

Do you...your spirit...exist after death?

I believe we do, Christ would not have come to earth, lived a sinless life, died on the cross for the atonement of our sins and raised again so that we will be resurrected, if we will not exist after death.

I

f it does....then why wouldn't you have existed before you were born also?

Because God chose not to do it that way, I believe.

Why are you here?

Well, back in August 1982... I believe our ultimate purpose on earth is to come to salvation in Jesus Christ and walk with him until our death. This life is merely a snap of the fingers compared to what eternity will be.

What will Eternity be like...if indeed you are saved and ultimately go to heaven?

I think that Heaven is beyond our comprehension. We know from Scripture that is a place of glory, it is sinless, we will be with God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), and that there are no tears.

Why would God punish ALL of mankind simply because Adam and Eve transgressed or because someone doesn't understand or care who Christ is and why HE is so vital to everyone's Eternal destiny?

We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, we deserve punishment. God is pure, sinless...He can not tolerate sin, and we have all sinned, He has given us an "out" through His son, Jesus Christ. If God didn't care, He would not have given His only son.

Shouldn't ALL of mankind...everyone that has ever existed or that will ever exist....shouldn't they have exactly the same opportunity to hear the Gospel...to learn about Christ and accept HIM?

I would hope so. Again, I really like the LDS theory here.

Wouldn't a loving Father in Heaven or caring creator (for SB's) have made a system, designed a plan of salvation that would be completely fair to all?

I think He already has, His son, Jesus Christ.

Hope this helps! I am speaking for myself, not the SB's of the world.

[JessicaHarper]

Thanks for that book rec Jessica, I've ordered it from amazon.

Great, I think it is a good book. Did you order the one by Neil R. Lightfoot? I am sure there have to be 400 books with the title "How We Got the Bible."