Mysteries Of The Universe

[LionHeart]

I will begin by quoting some scriptures and some of Joseph Smith's teachings and throw in a little reasoning, then I will get to the point. And I know that many of you don't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet but bear with me.

In the heavens there are Gods many. In the heavens there are worlds many. God and his kingdom are without beginning of days or end of years but they are one eternal round. As man is, God once was, as God is, man may become. Whenever you have two intelligences, one being higher than the other, this in itsself proves the possiblity of there being yet another intelligence that is higher than they both. All living things have a spirit, including plants. God, finding himself in a sea of spirits, and realizing he was of a higher intelligence than the rest of them, began to enact laws through which those lesser intelligences could be brought up to his level of intelligence. There was never a beginning nor will there ever be an end, for the universe is one eternal round. What came first, the apple or the tree? The tree grows from the apple and the apple grows from the tree. Never has there been a time, nor will there ever be a time when you have one without the other; for it is one eternal round. We have a father in heaven, who is the same father as Jesus' father in heaven. It is logical to conclude that God the father also has a father in heaven, and him likewise on up through eternity.

And now for a little of my own reasoning: The universe is an infinite expanse. Take the biggest thing your mortal mind is capable of comprehending, and there will stilll be yet something bigger. It also goes the other way. Everytime scientists think they have found the smallest thing in the universe, later on down the road, something smaller is always discovered. There is no such thing as a biggest and there is no such thing as a smallest. It is one eternal round. Think of an atom, does it not resemble a solar system? Imagine if you were small enough to live on an electron, if you looked up in the night sky, the things you see may look alot like what we see when we look into the night sky.

Now getting to the point, perhaps this life is just one step in our eternal pursuit of becoming a higher intelligence. Perhaps we were once a fly (a lesser intelligence) on another world of course, that was swatted off of somebody's wall. The things we learned in that time period (like stay away from a horses nostrils) are the things that took us to our next step of progress. Think about it; when we move on to the next life, what are we going to do? Are we going to be reunited with our Lord and be one big happy family doing absolutely nothing for all eternity?

It is human nature to seek after knowledge. When we achieve a breakthrough, we marvel in it for a while, then it becomes old and boring and off we go searching for more knowledge. If you think about it, eternity would be an awfully boring place with nothing to do, no new experiences to have, and nothing more to learn.

It all falls onto that word "eternity". The universe seems to be virtually impossible for the mortal mind to fully comprehend. There seems to be too many gaps that need filled. The only conclusion I can come up with is that our understanding of the word "eternity" is different from the way God understands it. Perhaps as close as it can possibly be in our mortal, linear existence, but not the same.

Anyway, just something interesting to think about.

[john doe]

Speed kills.

You have much to learn, Grasshopper. Unfortunately I don't agree with your conclusions. Call it arrogance if you want, but I just don't think I was ever a fly in a previous life.

[sgallan]

Call it arrogance if you want, but I just don't think I was ever a fly in a previous life.

I have it on good authority you were a Taratula.

[LionHeart]

Actually I'm not so sure I believe it myself. A hornet? Maybe; but a fly? NEVER!!! No, perhaps there are categories of existence and human will always progress as humans and animals will always progress as animals. However I'm not ruling anything out. All I can say is that according to my understanding of the laws of heaven, I can't imagine there ever being a time where an individual does not have the opportunity to progress. And on another note, I can't imagine a heaven without cute little furry things either. :)

[moroni]

if you are mormon and you go to church you should look at the hyme if you could high to kolob it answers many questions. read over it nd talk to your bishop or stake president questions will be answerd

[Jason]

Lionheart,

You're thinking is very much in line with some early LDS leaders. John Doe apparently doesn't realize this.

Here's a few scripture references to start:

For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him. And he hath risen AGAIN from the dead, that he might bring all men unto him, on conditions of repentance.(D&C 18:11-12)

Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of him. He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them. He was crucified, died, and rose AGAIN the third day; (D&C 20:21-23)

If so, wo shall come upon you; but if not so, then cast about your eyes and begin to believe in the Son of God, that he will come to redeem his people, and that he shall suffer and die to atone for their sins; and that he shall rise AGAIN from the dead, which shall bring to pass the resurrection, that all men shall stand before him, to be judged at the last and judgment day, according to their works. (Alma 33:22)

Know ye that ye must come to the knowledge of your fathers, and repent of all your sins and iniquities, and believe in Jesus Christ, that he is the Son of God, and that he was slain by the Jews, and by the power of the Father he hath risen AGAIN, whereby he hath gained the victory over the grave; and also in him is the sting of death swallowed up.(Mormon 7:5)

From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised AGAIN the third day.(Matthew 16:21)

But after I am risen AGAIN, I will go before you into Galilee.(Matthew 26:32)

OTHER REFERENCES INCLUDE MATTHEW 17:9,23, Acts 13:33,37, Acts 17:3, 1 Corinthians 15:4, 2 Corinthians 5:15, 1 Thessalonians 4:14, Romans 4:25, Romans 8:34.

The dictionary definition of "again" means a second time.

LDS Apostle Heber C. Kimball taught reincarnation on several occasions:

"Joseph always told us that we would have to pass by sentinels that are placed between us and our Father and God. Then, of course, we are conducted along from this probation to other probations, or from one dispensation to another, by those who conducted those dispensations." (Journal of Discourses 6:63)

"What I do not to-day, when the sun goes down, I lay down to sleep, which is typical of death; and in the morning I rise and commence my work where I left it yesterday. That course is typical of the probations we take. But suppose that I do not improve my time to-day, I wake up to-morrow and find myself in the rear; and then, if I do not improve upon that day, and again lay down to sleep, on awaking, I find myself still in the rear. This day's work is typical of this probation, and the sleep of every night is typical of death, and rising in the morning is typical of the resurrection. They are days labours, and it is for us to be faithful to-day, tomorrow, and every day." (JD 4:329)

LDS Apostle Orson Pratt:

"And thus, all the different portions of the earth have been and will be disposed of to the lawful heirs; while those who cannot prove their heirship to be legal, of who cannot prove that they have received any portion of the earth by promise, will be cast out into some other kingdom or world, where, if they ever get an inheritance, they will have to earn it by keeping the law of meekness during another probation." (JD 1:332-333)

LDS Prophet Joseph Smith:

"And I heard a voice from heaven saying blessed are the dead who die in the Lord for from henceforth they do rest from their labors and their works do follow them-They rest from their labors for a long time and yet their work is held in reserve for them, that they are permitted to do the same works after they receive a resurrection for their bodies, but we shall leave this subject of the Terrestrial bodies for another time in order to treat upon them more fully."(Words of Joseph Smith, Ehat, page 42)

A few more reincarnation thoughts from Kimball:

"How many shapes do you suppose you are put into before you become Saints, or before you become perfect and sanctified to enter into the celestial glory of God? You have got to be like that clay in the hands of the potter. Do you not know that the Lord directed the Prophet anciently, to go down to the potter's house to see a miracle on the wheel? Suppose the Potter takes a lump of clay, and putting it on the wheel, goes to work to form it into a vessel, and works it out this way, and that way, and the other way, but the clay is refractory and snappish; he still trys [tries] it, but it will break, and snap, and snarl, and thus the potter will work it and work it until he is satisfied he cannot bring it into the shape he wants, and it mars upon the wheel; he takes his tool, then, and cuts it off the wheel, and throws it into the mill to be ground over again, until it becomes passive, (don't you think you will go to hell if you are not passive?) and after it is ground there so many days, and it becomes passive, he takes the same lump, and makes of it a vessel unto honor. Now do you see into that, brethren? I know the potters can. I tell you, brethren, if you are not passive you will have to go into that mill, and perhaps have to grind there one thousand years, and then the Gospel will be offered to you again, and then if you will not accept of it, and become passive, you will have to go into the mill again, and thus you will have offers of salvation from time to time, until all the human family, will, except the sons of perdition, are redeemed. The spirits of men will have the Gospel as we do, and they are to be judged according to men in the flesh. Let us be passive, and take a course that will be perfectly submissive.(JD 1: talk begins on page 160)

LDS prophet Brigham Young:

"Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hands of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." The clay that marred in the potter's hands was thrown back into the unprepared portion, to be prepared over again. So it will be with every wicked man and woman, and every wicked nation, kingdom, and government upon earth, sooner or later; they will be thrown back to the native element from which they originated, to be worked over again, and be prepared to enjoy some sort of a kingdom." (JD 2: talk begins pg.121)

"If you suffer the opposite of this to take possession of your tabernacles, it will hurt you, and all that is associated with you, and blast, and strike with mildew, until your tabernacle, which was created to continue throughout an endless duration, will be decomposed, and go back to its native elements, to be ground over again like the refractory clay that has spoiled in the hand of the potter, it must be worked over again until it shall become passive, and yield to the potter's wish." (BY JD 2: begin 129)

Heber Kimball again:

"Comparing us to clay that is in the hands of the potter, if that clay is passive, I have power as a potter to mould it and make it into a vessel unto honor. Who is to mould these vessels? Is it God Himself in person, or is it His servants, His potters, or journeymen, in company with those He has placed to oversee the work? The great Master Potter dictates His servants, and it is for them to carry out His purposes, and make vessels according to his designs; and when they have done the work, they deliver it up to the Master for His acceptance; and if their works are not good, He does not accept them; the only works He accepts, are those that are prepared according to the design He gave. God will not be trifled with; neither will His servants; their words have got to be fulfilled, and they are the men that are to mould you, and tell you what shape to move in.

I do not know that I can compare it better than by the potter's business. It forms a good comparison. This is the course you must pursue, and I know of no other way that God has prepared for you to become sanctified, and moulded, and fashioned, until you become modelled to the likeness of the Son of God, by those who are placed to lead you. This is a lesson you have to learn as well as myself. When I know that I am doing just as I am told by him who is placed to lead this people, I am then a happy man, I am filled with peace, and can go about my business with joy and pleasure; I can lie down and rise again in peace, and be filled with gladness by night and by day. But when I have not done the things that are right, my conscience gnaws upon my feelings. This is the course for me to take. If it is the course for me to take, it is the course for every other Elder in Israel to take-it does not matter who he is, or where he came from whether he be an American, an Englishman, Irishman, Frenchman or German, Jew or Gentile to this you have got to bow, and you have got to bow down like the clay in the hands of the potter, that suffers the potter to mould it according to his own pleasure. You have all got to come to this and if you do not come to it at this time, as sure as the sun ever rose and set, you will be cut from the wheel, and thrown back into the mill. You have come from the mill, and you have been there grinding. For what purpose? To bring you into a passive condition. You have been gathered from the nations of the earth, from among the kindreds, tongues, and peoples of the world, to the Valley of the Great Salt Lake, to purify and sanctify yourselves, and become like the passive clay in the hands of the potter. Now suppose I subject myself enough, in the hands of the potter, to be shaped according as he was dictated by the Great Master potter, that rules over all things in heaven and on earth, he would make me into a vessel of honor. There are many vessels that are destroyed after they have been moulded and shaped. Why? Because they are not contented with the shape the potter has given them, but straightway put themselves into a shape to please themselves; therefore they are beyond understanding what God designs, and they destroy themselves by the power of their own agency, for this is given to every man and woman, to do just as they please. That is all right, and all just. Well, then, you have to go through a great many modellings and shapes, then you have to be glazed and burned; and even in the burning, some vessels crack. What makes them crack? Because they are snappish; they would not crack, if they were not snappish and wilful. If you go to the potteries in Staffordshire, England, where the finest china ware is manufactured, you will see them take the coarsest materials about the pottery, and make a thing in the shape of a half bushel; then put the finest ware in these to secure it from danger in the burning operation. All the fine ware made in Europe and in China, is burnt in this kind of vessels. After they are done with, they are cast away-they are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. So God takes the wicked, and makes them protect the righteous, in the process of sanctifying, and burning, and purifying, and preparing them, and making them fit for the Master's use. These saggars, as they are called, are compounded of refuse articles that have been cast out; so even they are good for something. The wicked are of use, for they are a rod in the hands of the Almighty to scourge the righteous, and prepare them for their Master's use, that they may enter into the celestial world, and be crowned with glory in His presence." (JD 2:150)

More Heber Kimball:

"We have not as yet any durable location; we are merely probationers in this present state, and we shall always be so, until we obtain a permanent exaltation, by following in the footsteps of our God. He is our Father and our God, and His Son Jesus Christ is our Savior, and the Holy Ghost is to be our comforter, and will comfort all those who will prepare their tabernacles as fit temples for him to dwell in.

When the Holy Ghost dwells in us it will enable us to discern between right and wrong, will show us things to come, and bring things to our remembrance, and will make every one of this people prophets and prophetesses of God. We have acknowledged brother Brigham to be our leader, and he holds the keys of the kingdom of heaven here on the earth. Whether people believe it or not, he is God's representative in the flesh, and is the mouth-piece of God unto us. Brother Joseph Smith many a time said to brother Brigham and myself, and to others, that he was a representative of God to us, to teach and direct us and reprove the wrong doers, He has past behind the veil, but there never will a person in this dispensation enter into the celestial glory without his approbation. Brother Brigham is brother Joseph's rightful successor, and he has his Counselors, and together they are an earthly pattern of the divine order of government. Those men are God's agents, His servants, and are witnesses of your covenants, which you will have to fulfil. And what you do not fulfil in this year you will have to do in the next; and what are not then fulfilled will have to be in some future time..... Brother Dan Jones has been talking to you about the clay in the hands of the potter. If you get hold of a lump of clay that is snappish and wilful, and not willing that you should twist it into any shape or form, what is the use of working it? You throw it back into the mill and let it be ground again, and then take it out and make of it a vessel unto honor.

Perhaps some do not really believe that when a man is thrown back into the mill, or goes into the spirit world, that he ever will be redeemed, but he will, if he has not sinned against the Holy Ghost. He will be ground and worked up until he becomes passive, and then God, through His servants, will redeem him, and make him a vessel unto honor. A great many will go to hell, and the very men that are preaching to you now will visit you and offer you salvation, after you have laid there, perhaps, thousands of years, for you must stay in the mill until you are passive and obedient. Jeremiah, at the command of God, went to the potter's house where the potter was molding the clay, and when he went to turn it on the wheel it was refractory and rebellious: and he worked at it and sweat over it, but after all it was rebellious, and fell down on the wheel. What did he do then? He cut it off from the wheel and threw it back into the mill, and after he had ground it awhile, he took it out and made of it a vessel unto honor; so of the same lump he made a vessel unto dishonor, and one unto honor. Did the potter make it dishonorable? No, the vessel made itself unto dishonor; and the next time it was pliable and passive, and the potter made of it a vessel unto honor, because it was honorable and submissive. I wished to make these few remarks, because they touch upon things that are on my mind all the time. And if you wish to be Saints, for God's sake be Saints, and if you wish to be devils, be devils, and get out of this place; and let those that will be Saints, be Saints; and let them commune together and carry out the purpose of God. I would rather have three hundred men and women that are perfectly amenable to the authorities of this Church, than a numerous people that are rebellious; and I could do more to bring about the purposes of God, and do it ten times quicker, with a few faithful persons, than with hosts of the wicked."(JD 4:begins pg.119)

Yep, more Heber (do ya think he believed in reincarnation?? ):

"I frequently talk about the clay in the hands of the potter. The Lord said to Jeremiah, "I will show you a thing that I cannot tell you. Go down to the potter's house, and I will be there, but you shall not see me; and I will make that potter mar a vessel." Jeremiah went down to the potter's house, and the Lord showed him the very thing he had promised; for the potter undertook to make a vessel, and the clay marred in his hands, and he cut it off the wheel and threw it into the mill; "and now," says he, "take it out again and shape it into a ball, and turn it into a vessel of honour." He did that very thing, though it is not written. The Scriptures say that out of the same lump he made a vessel first unto dishonour, and then unto honour.

I used to preach upon that in Nauvoo, and Joseph said it was the true interpretation. Now, Jeremiah was a man like brother Brigham, brother Heber, Amasa, and thousands of the servants of God that were valiant. There are thousands here that have never seen a potter's house. But if I was in one, I could take a lump of clay and show you; and perhaps, being out of practice, it would mar in my hands: then I would throw it back into the mill and grind it, and afterwards I would take it up again and make a vessel unto honour. And thus the Lord said to Jeremiah, "As you see that clay mar in the hands of the potter, so shall it be with the house of Israel. They shall go and be in prison till I bring them out and make them vessels unto honour." That is to be done in the latter days, when the Lord is to say to the dry bones, "Come forth," and so on. Go and read the Bible, and you will learn about it. It will be just so with thousands and tens of thousands who will embrace "Mormonism:" they will go back into the mill again, through disobedience." (JD 5:begin pg.271)

Supposedly (I cannot verify) LDS Apostle Orson F. Whitney also believed in reincarnation, and if true, apparently so did Eliza R. Snow. From OFW's diary:

"3 June 1889: This evening I heard that Pres. Woodruff, in a meeting at Manti, a few days ago, publicly declared that the doctrine of reincarnation, that is one spirit having several bodies, to be false; that he was Wilford Woodruff and no one else, &c &c. Alright, bro. Woodruff, if you really said it, it is between you and the Lord. I believe it to be a true doctrine, & have for the last (word cut out of entry) years." (Diary of OFW, 3 June 1889, Church Archives)

Again, cannot verify the above. Perhaps someone in Church Archives will verify for us?

What say ye know brother john doe?

[john doe]

What say ye know(sic) brother john doe?

I still don't believe reincarnation to be a true doctrine, and since the JoD is not canon, I consider the words therein to be the personally held beliefs of those who said them and in no way binding doctrine on me or the church. Although you will find among those who frequent this website some who believe that the JoD is doctrinal and binding on the church, I do not. And unless a current Prophet today declares this to be a true doctrine of the church, I don't anticipate that I will be changing my mind on this subject anytime soon.

Just to be clear, I part ways with those who believe the earth was literally created from nothing over a 6,000 year time period as well. Just another thing I disagree with some old-time church leaders with. They reconciled unknown and unrevealed things their way, I reconcile unknown and unrevealed things my way.

Thanks for asking for my thoughts on this, it does me good to think that some here value my input and perspective.

[Jason]

Hey John,

I think you're a pretty smart fellow. I understand the argument against the JoD, but what do you think of the passages from the Standard Works?

How do you reconcile those passages with your beliefs?

Thanks.

[LionHeart]

My question to john doe would be this: According to LDS teachings, aren't the things learned in the conferences supposed to be considered scripture? Aren't the words spoken by the president of the Church supposed to be considered scripture?

I've heard people of the LDS faith tell me that Gordon B. Hinckley himself said that the things written in the conference editions of the ensign magazine were to be considered scripture. Because it is counsel directly from the Church leaders. They also told me that words from his mouth were to be considered directly from the mouth of God.

And now for a little history of the journal of discourses: Originally it was a magazine authorized by Brigham Young, much like the ensign magazine. The reason it was published is so that the people who couldn't make it to the conferences could still get the teachings. Later on, all of the editions were gathered together and published into a 26 volume set called the Journal Of Discoursed. Although not canonized, it is still counsel from the Church leaders.

On another note, in Jason's post above, he quoted Brigham Young; which quote seemed to agreee with the things Heber C. Kimball was saying. Brigham young was once the "Prophet Seer And Revelator" was he not? If his words are to be considered scripture, who is modern man to contradict?

On the subject of reincarnation, the popular understanding of it is that when a man dies, he eventually returns to THIS Earth in some other random form like a cow or a fish etc. However, the situation I was referring to in my above post was not even close to this idea. I believe that we may have progressed up to this grace through an eternity of lesser graces. Whatever those lesser graces were, whether they were animal forms, or just a lesser form of a human. However I think I have ruled out the animal form idea because of this fact: The saviour came to this Earth in a human form. After he was crucified and resurrected, he was still in a human form but in a higher state of glory. The Lectures on Faith were extracted from the Doctrine and Covenants and de-canonized, even though they were compiled by Joseph Smith the prophet and the first presidency, because the description contained in them of God the Father ie "God the Father is a personage of spirit" did not seem to agree with the modern LDS descriptions of him ie "God the Father is a resurrected being". If one understands this concept of eternal progression, he will be able to understand how both descriptions of God the Father are correct. Perhaps as we attain to higher states of glory, our personage becomes more and more pure that we are something that could be described as spirit. Although being a resurrested being would seem like a high state of glory, the Saviour is there now and God the Father has been there and moved on to an even higher state of glory; a state that might not be considered flesh and bone any longer. And as it continues on up through eternity, the mortal mind is inadequate to comprehend the glories we have the potential of attaining to.

[huma17]

You have much to learn, Grasshopper. Unfortunately I don't agree with your conclusions. Call it arrogance if you want, but I just don't think I was ever a fly in a previous life.

←

Perhaps not, but what about a dog? Or a giraffe?

[huma17]

I still don't believe reincarnation to be a true doctrine

Don't think about it in terms of reincarnation. Would you agree that there are currently lesser intelligences than you out there? If so, don't they also need to progress? Now, in the mean time, why not use those lesser spirits to serve a purpose in our progression? Don't all plants/animals have spirits? If they are currently of lesser intelligence and progression, then why not serve as a dog for a short time as a 'prop', if you will, in the play of our own progression. Once they achieve the level of progression that we attained before coming here, then it will be their turns to have a mortal probation. Them coming here doesn't really do anything for their own progression and growth - remember, our time here is really rather short.

Anyway, that's the way I see it could be.

[john doe]

Originally posted by Jason@Dec 13 2005, 12:11 PM

Hey John,

I think you're a pretty smart fellow.  I understand the argument against the JoD, but what do you think of the passages from the Standard Works? 

How do you reconcile those passages with your beliefs? 

Thanks.

←

Jason, you and I both know that you don't personally believe those passages to be scripture, so don't try to 'convince' me of something that you don't even believe. Unless you've changed your mind on what you do or don't believe in lately, again.

As far as what they mean, I personally don't think those isolated scriptures mean that reincarnation exists. I don't see the justification for even trying to believe that. They could mean a number of things, including a not-so-uncommon belief among some that Jesus might possibly have been the savior of other worlds and died for the sins of those worlds previously to when He was here. Not that I subscribe to those beliefs, but there are people who do believe that. Or they could refer to the fact that He rose on the resurrection day just as He had for 33 years every morning previous to that, with the obvious side note that He was dead previous to his rising again on the day of resurrection. Or they could mean something else entirely. I just don't see the justification to say that they refer to reincarnation. I think it's quite a stretch.

[john doe]

Lionheart,

You don't actually believe that everything that Brigham Young said is to be considered scripture and binding on the church as doctrine, do you? To refine it further, you don't actually believe that everything written in the JoD is to be considered scripture and binding on the church as doctrine, do you? If so, why do you think it is becoming more difficult to obtain them? Wouldn't the church make an effort to distribute the JoD to its members if it considered them to be doctrinal and binding on us? The JoD is out-of-print for a reason, and it's not for a lack of paper to print it on.

[john doe]

Originally posted by huma17@Dec 13 2005, 09:03 PM

I still don't believe reincarnation to be a true doctrine

Don't think about it in terms of reincarnation. Would you agree that there are currently lesser intelligences than you out there? If so, don't they also need to progress? Now, in the mean time, why not use those lesser spirits to serve a purpose in our progression? Don't all plants/animals have spirits? If they are currently of lesser intelligence and progression, then why not serve as a dog for a short time as a 'prop', if you will, in the play of our own progression. Once they achieve the level of progression that we attained before coming here, then it will be their turns to have a mortal probation. Them coming here doesn't really do anything for their own progression and growth - remember, our time here is really rather short.

Anyway, that's the way I see it could be.

←

I can see the mantra now: "As dogs are, God once was; as God is, dogs may become".

Nah, I just don't see it or believe it. Sorry.

I see us, humans, as the literal and spiritual offspring of God, in our current forms. I see us as intelligences who were created into spirits, in the image of God, not some lower life form. What were we before we were born as spirits in the image of God? I don't know, and neither do you. That has not been revealed to us, so any speculation is just that--- speculation. Maybe you're right, we were animals in some other life, maybe not. I just don't believe it, and I feel it's my right not to believe in things not revealed as doctrine in the church.

[huma17]

Originally posted by john doe@Dec 14 2005, 06:19 PM

I can see the mantra now: "As dogs are, God once was; as God is, dogs may become".     

Nah, I just don't see it or believe it. Sorry.

I see us, humans, as the literal and spiritual offspring of God, in our current forms. I see us as intelligences who were created into spirits, in the image of God, not some lower life form. What were we before we were born as spirits in the image of God? I don't know, and neither do you. That has not been revealed to us, so any speculation is just that--- speculation. Maybe you're right, we were animals in some other life, maybe not. I just don't believe it, and I feel it's my right not to believe in things not revealed as doctrine in the church.

←

Why think of it in terms of a lower life form? We, as humans, were lesser intelligences at one point, in which we grew, learned and progressed - it's that simple. The dog, cat, tree, or whatever, is a simple body to house a spirit - a spirit that is currently of a lesser intelligence, or state of growth. Why can't they learn and grow further as we have? Would you want to stay at the level of intelligence of a dog for all eternity, without the opportunity to grow and progress?

[LionHeart]

You don't actually believe that everything that Brigham Young said is to be considered scripture and binding on the church as doctrine, do you? To refine it further, you don't actually believe that everything written in the JoD is to be considered scripture and binding on the church as doctrine, do you? If so, why do you think it is becoming more difficult to obtain them? Wouldn't the church make an effort to distribute the JoD to its members if it considered them to be doctrinal and binding on us? The JoD is out-of-print for a reason, and it's not for a lack of paper to print it on.

John Doe

No you are right, the JoD is not binding on the Church, and I do believe that Brigham Young taught some things that most people would find as being hard to accept; not that I believe everything he taught but I'm not ruling anything out either. However, the ensign magazine is basically a modern version of the JoD. So the thing I'm wondering is this: If Gordon B. Hinkcley says that the teachings of the modern Church leaders and the things you read in the ensign magazine are to be considered scripture, then what is so different today from back in the early days? Why is the JoD being faded out of existence?

And I think you may also be right about reincarnation; that whole "as dogs are" thing does sound quite messed up. Suffice it to say that I believe we have progressed through eternity up through the lesser stages of graces on up to this grace. I'm leaning towards the idea that there are categories of intelligences, ie humans, animals, plants, however I'm not ruling anything out.

Cheers

[john doe]

Why is the JoD being faded out of existence?

Remember, I asked that question first. Maybe it's because it's not as focused as the ensign when it comes to what is being written. Also, some portions of the JoD may not necessarily be the exact words given at the speeches. Also, as far as I am know, the only portions of the Ensign the GA's have told us may be considered as doctrinal would be the First Presidency Message, not the added articles after it.

I'm leaning towards the idea that there are categories of intelligences, ie humans, animals, plants,

You may be on to something there, I don't necessarily have a disagreement with that statement.

[allen]

if you are mormon and you go to church you should look at the hyme if you could high to kolob it answers many questions. read over it nd talk to your bishop or stake president questions will be answerd

That's one of my favorite hymns! It really expresses my feelings about the Celestial Kingdom!

[Guest Syble]

I didn't read anything about reincarnation in those talks. I read about the buffetting of Satan and that eventually we will be worked into a thing of honor and obtain "A" kingdom.

We are, however, reincarnated as first spirits after being intelligences, then flesh, then ressurrected beings.

That reworking the clay is not saying you will have different clay, just worked over clay.

[Snow]

We are, however, reincarnated as first spirits after being intelligences, then flesh, then ressurrected beings.

Except spirits and intelligences are carnate, but why let that stand in our way.

[Guest Syble]

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We are, however, reincarnated as first spirits after being intelligences, then flesh, then ressurrected beings.

Except spirits and intelligences are carnate, but why let that stand in our way.

How so? We are clothed in glory and intelligence, truth and light. We are clothed in clay. We will be clothed in an immortal body.