I Am Speechless

[sgallan]

Every now and then I come across a story and I just don't know what to say. This is one from them the AP...

PRESTONSBURG, Ky. - Dottie Neeley, 87, was fingerprinted, photographed and thrown in jail, imprisoned as much by the tubing from her oxygen tank as by the concrete and steel around her.

The woman — who spent two days in jail after her arrest last December — is among a growing number of Kentucky senior citizens charged in a crackdown on a crime authorities say is rampant in Appalachia: Elderly people are reselling their painkillers and other medications to addicts.

When a person is on Social Security drawing $500 a month, and they can sell their pain pills for $10 apiece, they'll take half of them for themselves and sell the other half to pay their electric bills or buy groceries," Floyd County jailer Roger Webb said.

Since April 2004, Operation UNITE, a Kentucky anti-drug task force crated largely in response to rampant abuse of the powerful and sometimes lethal painkiller OxyContin, has charged more than 40 people 60 or older with selling primarily prescription drugs in the mountains.

"It used to be a rare occasion to have an elderly inmate," Webb said. "Five years ago it was a rarity."

Local jails are having to bear the increased cost of caring for old and often sickly inmates.

"You've got to give them more attention," Webb said. "It's putting a strain on my deputies. We're understaffed anyway. You've got to get them doctors, and meet their medical needs."

Researchers suspect the problem is not limited to Appalachia.

Elderly people "may be looking for a way to bring in a little extra money," said Erin Artigiani, deputy director of the University of Maryland Center for Substance Abuse Research. "We haven't heard a lot about senior citizens being a source of those drugs. We know college students do this. It's not much a stretch to think that seniors could do it, too."

The rest of the article.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051212/ap_on_...ly_drug_dealers

[Ray]

Very sad. People that old should know better.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Ray@Dec 12 2005, 02:28 PM

Very sad.  People that old should know better.

Ray, it appears that $500 a month is not cutting it for the seniors. The cost of living is still more than their income. Something's gotta change and I don't think putting them in jail is the answer.

M.

[Guest ToasterOfen]

Originally posted by Ray@Dec 12 2005, 02:28 PM

Very sad.  People that old should know better.

←

Yes, they should know better, but I can understand why they are doing it...they don't have a lot of options, they need to pay their bills...I don't agree with it but I do understand it.

And honstly, maybe the older folks don't understand the harm that these drugs can cause if abused. These older folks are taking these drugs to help them...so they may not see much harm in selling them to someone else.

[sgallan]

Now that I've thought about it a bit.... this kinda works. Many are already prisoners in their own homes. Bound to oxygen, walkers, or whatever. And they don't enough money. So they sell their pills. What happens.... two things.... one is they get enough money to make end meet. Or they get arrested and go to jail. Where the state is required to meet their needs.

Sounds pretty win/win to me.

[Ray]

Heh, that may sound like a win/win situation, but if they were really smart they would become members of the Church and receive all the assistance they need, including many opportunites to learn how to provide for themselves.

As I said, people that old should know better.

[sgallan]

including many opportunites to learn how to provide for themselves.

Err.... I might be stating the obvious here, but 89 year olds on oxygen, with walkers, don't have a lot of opportunities to do much anymore. I am on their side. Heck.... that might be my future.

[Ray]

You sound like you'd be surprised to learn that some "jobs" don't require much effort at all, especially some "jobs" within the Church.

Heh, and please notice that I said that before you did. :)

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Dec 12 2005, 04:10 PM

Heh, that may sound like a win/win situation, but if they were really smart they would become members of the Church and receive all the assistance they need, including many opportunites to learn how to provide for themselves.

As I said, people that old should know better.

←

Or we could have the government do a better job of helping out low income seniors, without cramming someone's religion down their throat.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason+Dec 12 2005, 03:44 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Dec 12 2005, 04:10 PM

Heh, that may sound like a win/win situation, but if they were really smart they would become members of the Church and receive all the assistance they need, including many opportunites to learn how to provide for themselves.

As I said, people that old should know better.

←

Or we could have the government do a better job of helping out low income seniors, without cramming someone's religion down their throat.

←

You mean like how some people do when they try to tell the government how they believe they should do things?

Heh, I think some people fail to see how religion involves everything.

[Heather]

Do we really want to start advertising, "Be Mormon and we'll take care of you...and we're not talking just salvation!"? Frankly I'm tired of seeing some of the people on welfare here who would have no interest in the church if they weren't getting hand outs. I've seen a family move from one ward to another, the moment the bishop tells them they're back on their feet and they don't need the assistance anymore. Yes it's a great program, and great for those who really need it, but not the reason to get people to join the church.

[Ray]

I believe the true church of Christ should be involved in helping people with all kinds of problems, "spiritually" as well as "temporally", and if some people are only willing to accept the "Humanitarian Aid" we offer, then that is their problem, not mine.

[Guest ToasterOfen]

I'm with Heather. I don't want people to join our faith because they can have access to the church's welfare system. My first husband joined the church because of a girl (the girl wasn't me)...can you guess what happened? People should join the church for the right reasons, not because they think they are going to impress someone or get something (like physical support) out of it. People should join because they believe it's true...if not then don't become a member.

I would love to see everyone I know become a member of the Church...BUT only if they believe it is true. People who join for the wrong reasons only become embittered and eventually turn against it.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray+Dec 12 2005, 04:48 PM-->

Originally posted by Jason@Dec 12 2005, 03:44 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Dec 12 2005, 04:10 PM

Heh, that may sound like a win/win situation, but if they were really smart they would become members of the Church and receive all the assistance they need, including many opportunites to learn how to provide for themselves.

As I said, people that old should know better.

←

Or we could have the government do a better job of helping out low income seniors, without cramming someone's religion down their throat.

←

You mean like how some people do when they try to tell the government how they believe they should do things?

Heh, I think some people fail to see how religion involves everything.

←

Ray, I was being nice. Im not talking about religion, Im talking about proselyting. Im very well aware of the number of "converts" who join for welfare assistance. When that assistance is cut off, so goes the convert.

Pretty poor way of forcing others to think and believe like you.

Proselyting is, in my view, one of the worst things about Mormonism.

[Ray]

I'm with Heather. I don't want people to join our faith because they can have access to the church's welfare system.

Okay, so how many other people here think other people should join us if they believe we can help to improve their life in the next world, but not if they only believe we can help to improve their life in this world?

People who join for the wrong reasons only become embittered and eventually turn against it.

What is “wrong’ with helping people who come to us for help?

I can hear it now:

“Oh, not “that” kind of help. We only want you to help you make it to live in heaven.”

???

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason@Dec 12 2005, 04:04 PM

Proselyting is, in my view, one of the worst things about Mormonism.

←

How do you define "proselyting", Jason?

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray+Dec 12 2005, 05:17 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Dec 12 2005, 04:04 PM

Proselyting is, in my view, one of the worst things about Mormonism.

←

How do you define "proselyting", Jason?

←

Attempting to persuade others to believe like you do.

[Guest ToasterOfen]

Ray:  Okay, so how many other people here think other people should join us if they believe we can help to improve their life in the next world, but not if they only believe we can help to improve their life in this world?

Part of the reason I belong to this church is because of what I get out of it while on this earth...because it is there when I need help (when I was a single mother, I did recieve help from the church), but I belong to it and am a member BECAUSE I believe what it teaches. If I didn't believe, I would go somewhere else, and look to government and other institutions to help me if I needed it.

What Heather said is that she doesn't want people becoming members ONLY because of the financial and temporal "blessings" they can get and exploiting the church...and I agree. Yes, there are people who do that, I babysat for a family who did that. They weren't LDS, not even close...He fell off a roof and broke his back, the family needed help, so they went to the Church knowing they would get help if they took the discussions and were baptized. So that's what they did. But, as soon as he was back on his feet and the church quit helping, they went bye-bye.

We help many people in many countries with their monitary needs, and do not ask them for anything in return. It becomes a problem when people become baptized members PURELY to get a hand-out and monopolize our generosity. That is the problem.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason+Dec 12 2005, 04:32 PM-->

Originally posted by Ray@Dec 12 2005, 05:17 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Jason@Dec 12 2005, 04:04 PM

Proselyting is, in my view, one of the worst things about Mormonism.

←

How do you define "proselyting", Jason?

←

Attempting to persuade others to believe like you do.

←

Heh, okay, how do you define "persuade"?

And btw, I define "proselying" as "teaching", and I don't see anything wrong with anyone who tries to teach someone else what is believed to be true, as long as the "teacher" doesn't try to force someone to believe something, and as long as the "teacher" doesn't ridicule or "bash" someone for having beliefs which are opposed to the beliefs held by the "teacher".

Or in other words, I see nothing wrong with you trying to teach others about what you believe, just as I also see nothing wrong with me trying to teach others about what I believe, as long as neither one of us tries to force someone else to believe what we believe, and as long as neither one of us tries to "bash" someone for having beliefs which are opposed to our beliefs.

[Jason]

Let me make it simple. I believe it's wrong to proselytize, persuade, induce, or otherwise preach to others unless they approach you first. And even then, you shouldn't try to seduce the mind into your way of thinking.

Don't advertise, don't solicit, and don't pretend that you have the market cornered on truth.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason@Dec 12 2005, 05:27 PM

Let me make it simple.  I believe it's wrong to proselytize, persuade, induce, or otherwise preach to others unless they approach you first.  And even then, you shouldn't try to seduce the mind into your way of thinking. 

Don't advertise, don't solicit, and don't pretend that you have the market cornered on truth.

←

I can almost agree with all of that, except that I also see nothing wrong with approaching someone to determine if they are interested in what you have to say.

For instance, I see nothing wrong with you starting a thread to talk about an issue you want to talk about, even if within that thread you will be teaching or trying to teach others your ideas concerning that issue.

And I also see nothing wrong with people who go door to door in a neighborhood to determine whether or not the people in that neighborhood are interested in discussing an issue, as long as the people who go door to door are not trying to "force" the people in that neighborhood to beleive as they believe, and as long as they do not ridicule or "bash" the people in that neighorhood for having beliefs contrary to their own.

Or in other words, I see nothing wrong with people who want to talk to other people about something, as long as people converse with each other as civilized human beings.

[Heather]

I don't really agree with that, although I can see where you're coming from. What you're saying to me is the same as saying, "Don't teach the people in Africa about AIDs, unless they come to you about it first. Don't teach anyone how to take care of their families or themselves, unless they start to wonder for themselves." Members of the Church believe and know that they have a message which will make people and their lives happier, just as the Humanitarian groups know they have a message which will make people and their lives happier.

I do feel that faithful members of the Church know that living their lives acording to the gospel has made them better people and kept their families stronger and closer together. That being said, I can completely understand why they would want to share that message with others. If someone refuses to listen to those groups who are trying to help people in Africa, there truly isn't anything, anyone can do about it. Education in all forms isn't something that can be forced, and I don't believe what missionaries are doing is forceful proselyting either. The person can choose to listen to the missionaries or send them on their way. It's as simple as that.

[Jason]

A message board, by definition, is about persuasion. We choose to visit the board, and we choose to confront opposing views.

But there is a difference with proselyting door to door. We both know (me from first hand experience) that it's not just about sharing something. It's about finding a way, any way, to get someone baptised. Period. Like looking around someones yard to find something to talk about, in hopes that you'll get invited inside. Or preying on a loss someone has recently suffered, in hopes of gaining a convert.

The old 6 discussion format is was not designed to give a potential convert any chance of rejecting your message. As a Mormon Missionary, we pushed our religion on people, whether they liked it or not. That was our job, and that's how we were trained in the MTC.

The question in the second discussion was framed in such a manner that it was nigh impossible to refuse to be baptised. "Brother/Sister _____, will you follow the example of Christ, and be baptised by proper Priesthood authority."

Not, "Hey Bill, do you think you'd like to be baptised sometime?"

Or even better, don't invite them to be baptised. Wait until they ask you.

I personally have much more respect for religions who don't invite others in, but wait until they're asked about it. Eastern Orthodoxy does not ask you to join, you have to ask.

It's part of the Maxim: "Ask and ye shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto you."

Jesus also said "by their fruits ye shall know them" not by their advertising and solicitations.

[Ray]

Jesus also sent and continues to send people into the world to "teach", so I do not agree that we should wait for other people to come to us.

[Jason]

Ray,

I edited my last post. Please read that.