PC vs Mac

[Snow]

One thing I think we should discuss is the personality of Steve Jobs, and compare it to Bill Gates. When Apple went public, Jobs and Wozniak became instant millionaire. But Jobs refused to share that wealth with his employees. Instead, Woz shared his half with them and Jobs was greedy. Bill Gates on the other hand, now that he is retired is essentially using his wealth to help the third world. It seems the "green"types are Apple fans, but really who is doing more to save the planet? Steve Jobs is a miser, and since he was ousted from Apple and then returned, has become so protective of his products as to border on paranoia.

Irrelevant to the point at hand, but okay:

1. How much does Apple pay their employees compared to what Microsoft pays?

2. How much has Gates given to charity compared to what Steve Jobs has given to charity.

His business plan isn't to help the consumer. It is to protect his company and his own personal power. He lost it once, and is making decisions based on a fear of a repeat of history.

Okay - that's the dumbest thing I've heard since - well, since your last post.

Please demonstrate that Apple does not help consumers and compare and contrast that do how Microsoft helps consumers.

Then please demonstrate that he makes decisions based on fear.

NOTE: I know that you will not because you just made that tripe up - I'm right aren't I - you can't demonstrate it.

[Snow]

And, oh...

CUPERTINO (KRON) -- Fortune magazine says Apple co-founder Steve Jobs is the CEO of the decade.

Jobs beat out a number of other corporate leaders including Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, and somewhat improbably convicted felons Martha Steward and Bernie Madoff.

[bytebear]

That is undoubtedly one of the most inane things I've ever heard or seen in print.

1. You stated an assumption or observation and fabricated something up out of thin air irrelevant to that observation. It like saying that because Mac users have a greater command of the English language (arguably true), then it can be concluded that PCs are subject to virus infection (demonstrably true). The difference between your illogic and mine is that while both my points are so, one of your points may be so but the other is inane.

2. Saying "PC" is a misnomer. PC means personal computer. Macs not only are PCs, they invented personal computers (along with Commodore).

3. If Wintel boxes are a neccesity - how do I get along without one? (I have one but I don't use it). I don't expect you to have an answer. You are just making up flatulence.

4. If you Wintel box is a tool and my Mac is a toy, what do you do on yours that I cannot do on mine?

If you are going to argue the definition of "PC" then you are really stretching. Yes, they are both PCs, but until a few years ago the PC was a synonym for an intel core PC.that could run Windows, Linux, OS2,etc. and a Mac was a Motorola based computer that only ran Mac OS. Now, Macs are truly PCs but they are proprietary and non-upgradable. But you still claim they are different somehow. That is why your use of the archaic "Wintel" derogative is so humorous to me. The insults of Intel's supposed inferiority has really bitten the Apple worshiper in the butt.

It's akin to espousing the merits of diesel engines (or electric cars), and then suddenly the entire line of vehicles is changed over to gasoline engines. It's more than a little pathetic.

But you said yourself that you had several PCs including an HP, so now you don't use them? You are changing your story.

If Macs are and have always been superior, and a better value, why did you ever buy a PC?

Edited March 21, 2010 by bytebear

[bytebear]

And, oh...

CUPERTINO (KRON) -- Fortune magazine says Apple co-founder Steve Jobs is the CEO of the decade.

Jobs beat out a number of other corporate leaders including Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, and somewhat improbably convicted felons Martha Steward and Bernie Madoff.

Gates retired from Microsoftin 2000. Buffet is on boards, but not a CEO, and each have given tens of billions each personally to charity. Buffet gave 32 billion in stock to the Gates foundation, the single largest charitable donation in history. How much has Jobs given?

And besides, what does this have to with personal computers. If Jobs only had PCs to show, he would have never made the list. It's all about iPods, iPhones and iTunes. PCs are way down on the list. Apple had to reinvent itself steering away from that market. Do you have any recent articles that attribute Apple's success to their PC innovations? The super thin mac laptop made some headlines for about a week (of course it wasn't the first, although the media touted it as the first, and Apple never bothered to correct them).

Edited March 21, 2010 by bytebear

[Snow]

Now, Macs are truly PCs but they are proprietary and non-upgradable.

I just upgraded my iMac. It took 90 seconds to double by RAM. Explain that if it is not possible as you claim.

But you still claim they are different somehow. That is why your use of the archaic "Wintel" derogative is so humorous to me.

I know you can't - but, please demonstrate that the term is archaic.

The insults of Intel's supposed inferiority has really bitten the Apple worshiper in the butt.

You just make tripe up and post it as if it means something. I am an Intel fan. I've always liked Intel. They are a great company and make great chips.

It's akin to espousing the merits of diesel engines (or electric cars), and then suddenly the entire line of vehicles is changed over to gasoline engines. It's more than a little pathetic.

That looks like English but I can't make heads or tails out of what it is supposed to mean.

But you said yourself that you had several PCs including an HP, so now you don't use them? You are changing your story.

There's more English but it makes as little sense as the last one. I've not changed any stories. I've owned PCs for decades including the HP I have right now. I seldom use it because my Macs are more pleasurable to use.

If Macs are and have always been superior, and a better value, why did you ever buy a PC?

That's like asking that since CTS is superior, why do I also have a VW bug? There is a reason but do you seriously mean it as a legitimate question. Seriously?

I note that you have failed to address items 3 and 4 that were in response to your previous post. Can you tell me why you failed to address them?

[Snow]

Gates retired from Microsoftin 2000. Buffet is on boards, but not a CEO, and each have given tens of billions each personally to charity. Buffet gave 32 billion in stock to the Gates foundation, the single largest charitable donation in history. How much has Jobs given?

And besides, what does this have to with personal computers. If Jobs only had PCs to show, he would have never made the list. It's all about iPods, iPhones and iTunes. PCs are way down on the list. Apple had to reinvent itself steering away from that market. Do you have any recent articles that attribute Apple's success to their PC innovations? The super thin mac laptop made some headlines for about a week (of course it wasn't the first, although the media touted it as the first, and Apple never bothered to correct them).

I note that you completely failed - AGAIN - to support your claims. Let me ask again:

"1. How much does Apple pay their employees compared to what Microsoft pays?

2. How much has Gates given to charity compared to what Steve Jobs has given to charity.;;

Please demonstrate that Apple does not help consumers and compare and contrast that do how Microsoft helps consumers.

Then please demonstrate that he makes decisions based on fear.

NOTE: I know that you will not because you just made that tripe up - I'm right aren't I - you can't demonstrate it."

[Just_A_Guy]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I've read too much about the federal antitrust suit to buy into the Microsoft-as-consumer-rights-champions line.

[bytebear]

I note that you completely failed - AGAIN - to support your claims. Let me ask again:

"1. How much does Apple pay their employees compared to what Microsoft pays?

2. How much has Gates given to charity compared to what Steve Jobs has given to charity.;;

Please demonstrate that Apple does not help consumers and compare and contrast that do how Microsoft helps consumers.

Then please demonstrate that he makes decisions based on fear.

NOTE: I know that you will not because you just made that tripe up - I'm right aren't I - you can't demonstrate it."

Apple and Microsoft pay what market will bear, so I expect them to be comparable. I will say that Microsoft has generated far more jobs than Apple overall.

I know that the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation is the single largest private charity in the world, so I would say Gates gives considerably more.

And it's simply about consumer choice. By tying the software and hardware, the Apple consumer can only use apps that Aple deems acceptable. Just the amount of apps for Windows comparedt to Mac is proof enough. Then there is the issue of upgrades and repairs. If your Mac fails, you must have Apple repair it. If you want to upgrade your Apple, you can't. Even the iPhone/ipod has no expansion slot which most other phones have as standard, so if you want to get more gigs on your device, you better buy the next model, whereas of you had purchased some other device, you just buy a $10 memory card.

[bytebear]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I've read too much about the federal antitrust suit to buy into the Microsoft-as-consumer-rights-champions line.

There are horizontal monopolies, and vertical monopolies. Microsoft, because of it's dominance in the OS market does have a near monopoly (and would have a full monopoly if they hadn't helped keep Apple alive in the lean years, a very shrewd move), but because they don't control the hardware, you can choose to have Linux, FreeBSD, OS2, or whatever on your hardware. The issue in the case wasn't about that aspect, but it was about Microsoft leveraging hardware makers to force them to install certain products (IE) or charge for OEM packages, at threat of price gouging. It was more a fight about DOS under Windows than about Windows itself and unfair advantages in writing software for the OS. And MS was guilty of such practices, but that doesn't have anything to do with Apple and their place in the market.

Apple has a monopoly as well, since they control the hardware and software.They require you to run their package together, but because their market is so small, they get no retribution, but believe me, if MS decided to make a specific PC that Windows only ran on, they would be stopped in their tracks.

And now that Android is out, I see far more people switching phones, since it is open and has much potential for expansion and innovation by application authors. Apple instead, removed all apps from the Apple store that had some kind of GPS location connectivity. Why? Speculation is they have a killer app coming out and they don't want the competition. Nice.

Edited March 22, 2010 by bytebear

[bytebear]

I think this article is worth reading.

Jobs vs. Gates: Who's the Star?

[Snow]

Lol. I do love the way you mix fact and opinion together. The only fact in there is that I broke my licensing agreement. Immoral certainly is your opinion, because there is no evidence to support your claim that breaking the licensing agreement is actually wrong or how anyone was hurt in any way by my actions. By your logic, everyone who has ever ripped tracks from a CD in the UK is immoral because they broke the laws they agreed to obey. What are you trying to achieve by this? A dig at me personally, so everything else I say looks less credible? This is not the subject of this post and is not at all related, though you do seem to love hanging on to this.

I have to hand it to you. You are the only person I recall ever having talked to that asserts that dishonesty breaking your contractual obligations is not wrong

Whether or not it makes you less credible is debatable I suppose. You bragged about it so you seem to think that dishonesty makes you more credible - I'll just have to disagree.

For someone who thinks that it is not the subject of this thread, you sure spend a lot of time talking about it. How many times have you posted about it so far? 5 or more times?

Absolutely. I've already said studies mean nothing to me and given reasons why they are pretty much irrelevant. I just thought it was amusing to continue that part.

Okay then - six times it is that you have failed to support your claim.

Why did you claim it if you can't demonstrate it?

You did however say that it was the best choice apple could provide for a low spec machine. So basically anyone who wants to only do non-intensive stuff on their computer is getting a very bad deal.

It's not a bad deal. Total cost of ownership - a better measure of value than initial outlay is as good or better than a Wintel box.

I could get a low spec PC and put linux on it for a 1/10 of the cost, and they'd still to able to browse the web, watch movies, work in office apps and other basic stuff.

Please post a link to somewhere I can get a computer box for 60 bucks. I'd like to get one.

Compared to who, exactly? Do you know how many thousands of companies there are out there who make PCs? Are you willing to compare to all of them, or even most of them? Of course some will have a lower standard than apple. You're trying to compare oranges and apples.

Compared to all of them - specifically. Apple tops the computer industry in customer service.

I'd rather have a useful design than a pretty design, so I completely disagree here. As I said, I prefer the useful factor over the cool factor.

Typical Wintel logic.

With MAC I have both. With a PC you may have one or part of one but not the other.

Why is it irrelevant? It's not proof, but it does imply that more software would be installed on the average windows PC.

Picture me laughing outloud.

Please demonstrate that jewel of logic. Please don't make me ask a 2nd time. I'd really like to see you demonstrate that available applications for Windows means that users have more applications installed on their computer.

Pretty Please!

I've told you how it works - I work in IT, I've seen this countless times. Everything that we have installed on our macs is also compatible with our PCs (at least I can't think of anything that isn't). Much of it is actually installed on our PCs. And then we have countless other packages installed on the PCs, far more than we have on the macs. Generally in business, macs have a specific purpose - this is usually for design work. PCs do not have one specific purpose most of the time, they just do everything else.

I don't know which organisation would be sad enough to do a study on the amount of software installed on the average mac/pc or what the point of such a study would be. All I can tell you is what I've seen on corporate networks that I've worked on. I can also tell you that that factor has not been taken into account in any of your studies. This is a flaw.

Nope - I'm not looking for excuses. I am looking for you to back up your claim.

Note: I know you just fabricated the claim so you won't be backing it up anytime soon.

Looking at all your posts here, the bottom line for me is this: if you don't really know what you are doing on a computer, or you are happy to spend quite a bit of money in order to save time, then go for a mac - pay for apple to do it all for you instead. But it would be wise to bear in mind that you're more likely to come across applications that won't work without emulation, at least that's what probability would suggest by the amount of apps that windows has compared to apple. If however you know what you are doing, you can save an absolutely fortune by being able to customise your computer/network until you have it exactly how you want it. There is no way I could have set up my home network using apple equipment as cheaply as I did with PCs, simply due to the freedom I had to modify.

Here's the problem I have with what you just said. You claim that you work in IT but then you say, "But it would be wise to bear in mind that you're more likely to come across applications that won't work without emulation."

I challenge you to name even one Windows application that WON'T run MACs without emulation.

Please.

[Snow]

I think this article is worth reading.

Jobs vs. Gates: Who's the Star?

Yeah great, but I am asking you to back up your claims:

1. How much does Apple pay their employees compared to what Microsoft pays?

2. How much has Gates given to charity compared to what Steve Jobs has given to charity.;;

3. Please demonstrate that Apple does not help consumers and compare and contrast that do how Microsoft helps consumers.

4. Then please demonstrate that he makes decisions based on fear.

Why have you refused to demonstrate your claims bytebear?

[bytebear]

Yeah great, but I am asking you to back up your claims:

1. How much does Apple pay their employees compared to what Microsoft pays?

2. How much has Gates given to charity compared to what Steve Jobs has given to charity.;;

3. Please demonstrate that Apple does not help consumers and compare and contrast that do how Microsoft helps consumers.

4. Then please demonstrate that he makes decisions based on fear.

Why have you refused to demonstrate your claims bytebear?

Just because you don't like the answers, doesn't mean they weren't answered. And continually repeating requests for information already given will not change that.

The true irony, is that the article you just poo-pooed obviously without reading answers your question #2.

Giving USA Foundation, a philanthropy research group which publishes an annual charity survey, said Jobs does not appear on lists of gifts of $5 million or more over the last four years. Nor is his name on a list of gifts of $1 million or more compiled by Indiana University's Center on Philanthropy.

Jobs' wife is also absent from these philanthropic lists, although she has made dozens of political donations totaling tens of thousands of dollars to the Democrats, according to the Open Secrets database.

You are exposed as a fraud and a troll.

And you never answered myquestion. Why if Macs are so superior, diid you ever buy an HP?

Edited March 22, 2010 by bytebear

[Snow]

Just because you don't like the answers, doesn't mean they weren't answered. And continually repeating requests for information already given will not change that.

There were 4 questions that spoke to your claims.

You have not answered a single one of them and the reason - OBVIOUSLY - is because you can't. just made stuff up to change the topic off of computer and OS's. I think it is obvious why you wanted to change the topic.

And you never answered myquestion. Why if Macs are so superior, diid you ever buy an HP?

I offered you the chance to leave well enough alone but, have it your way.

I got my most recent PC years ago so that my child could play computer games, as, at that time, Mac was not as good of a gaming platform.

Alas, for you, that is a thing of the past as Macs now run every computer video game (unless there Linux or Freebsd exclusive games) on the market - a claim that Wintel boxes cannot make.

Apples iPhone OS is set to become the world's dominant gaming platform:

"The iPhone/iPod monster has positioned itself as the preferred mobile gaming platform for developers and is quickly becoming one of the largest game platforms in the planet, with 75 million iPhone OS devices sold in just 2.5 years. The current king of all game platforms sold 125 million units of the much cheaper Nintendo DS in five years and two months."

"Now Apple is moving the action into the living room," Diaz writes. "Would gaming be one of main purposes of the iPad? Would the iPad become the next casual home gaming juggernaut, like the Wii? The market will tell in time, but apparently developers think that the possibility is there."

Would the iPad Take Over Casual Home Gaming? - ipad - Gizmodo

Game Developers Conference devotes entire summit to Apple’s iPhone OS platform:

At GDC, iPhone game development breaks out | Geek Gestalt - CNET News

"Gaming on the iPhone and iPod touch has been a huge hit for Apple -- a neat, unique experience combining a relatively big screen, multi-touch controls, motion-sensor controls, network access for social gaming, in-app commerce for virtual goods, and more," Dan Frommer reports for The Business Insider.

"The gaming experience on the iPad could be even crazier," Frommer reports. "And the iPhone game developers we're talking to are really excited about it."

Frommer reports, "The iPad's big screen in particular is going to bring a new element of fun and possibilities to the iPhone gaming platform. Besides just having larger, more vivid graphics, and more pixels to use for game controls, the iPad will offer more multi-touch input sensors, therefore adding new control possibilities to iPad games. Specifically, one iPhone developer tells us that the iPad will support up to 11 multi-touch inputs."

iPad Games Are Going To Be Crazy Awesome

"Some serious PC gaming is about to come to Macs, with Valve announcing that its Steam platform will support Apple computers in April," Jared Newman reports for Technologizer.

"Valve says it’ll treat the Mac as a 'tier-1' platform, meaning that its games and all updates will be released simultaneously for Windows and Mac," Newman reports. "A new feature called Steam Play will let people play the same game on a Windows PC and a Mac for no added cost, with saved games transferring between computers."

"Valve’s a heavy hitter in PC gaming, with iconic first-person shooters such as Half-Life, Counter-Strike and Left 4 Dead. And Steam, a platform for digital game downloads and online play, has 25 million members," Newman reports. "That number will soon inflate with Mac support, and there’s a good chance other game developer will give Mac ports more serious consideration."

Valve Gives Mac Gaming a Boost

John Cook from Valve in Steam Development called it: The biggest event in Steam's history."

More developers to follow:

AppleInsider | Game developers eye the Mac after Steam's jump to Apple

[Snow]

Just because you don't like the answers, doesn't mean they weren't answered. And continually repeating requests for information already given will not change that.

The true irony, is that the article you just poo-pooed obviously without reading answers your question #2.

You are exposed as a fraud and a troll.

And you never answered myquestion. Why if Macs are so superior, diid you ever buy an HP?

Okay name caller, let's see who is the fraud.

I ask again - and please don't lie and claim that you already answered it... HOW MUCH DID JOBS CONTRIBUTE TO CHARITABLE CAUSES?

Why do you avoid answering it and then call me names and shamelessly pretend that you answered it.

Since you are either so obtuse that you don't get it or deliberately trying to deceive, I'll answer the question for you:

The answer is YOU DON'T KNOW. All you know is that Gates very publicly donates money and makes sure that it is well publicized and that Jobs does not. That ALL YOU KNOW. You have no idea how much money Jobs donates anonymously.

Can you think of a scripture that speaks to making a big show of charitable giving?

Obviously you are trying to perpetuate a fraud. Can you demonstrate anything I've said that is fraudulent?

I'll wait.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Snow

[bytebear]

Okay little boy,

I ask again - and please don't lie and claim that you already answered it... HOW MUCH DID JOBS CONTRIBUTE TO CHARITABLE CAUSES?

Why do you avoid answering it and then call me names and shamelessly pretend that you answered it.

Since you are either so obtuse that you don't get it or deliberately trying to deceive, I'll answer the question for you:

The answer is YOU DON'T KNOW. All you know is that Gates very publicly donates money and makes sure that it is well publicized and that Gates does not. That ALL YOU KNOW. You have no idea how much money Jobs donates anonymously.

Can you think of a scripture that speaks to making a big show of charitable giving?

And you clearly believe that Jobs is secretly giving billions to charity without disclosing it on his taxes and there just happens to be no recordof it. Yeah, right. Give it up already.

And last I heard the iPad (which will go down faster than the Newton) isn't a PC. But keep throwing those nonsequitors.

Can you demonstrate anything I've said that is fraudulent?

A fraud is someone who claims PCs are inferior in all ways, and then goes out and buys an HP. Done.

Edited March 22, 2010 by bytebear

[Snow]

And you clearly believe that Jobs is secretly giving billions to charity without disclosing it on his taxes and there just happens to be no recordof it. Yeah, right. Give it up already.

Let's put it this way: I am the kind of guy that will back up my claims with support and evidence and you are the type of person that will claim that not having any information about something, is evidence.

Once more: How much money did/does Steve Job give philanthropically?

I'll be saving this post and throwing it your face shortly.

iPads do word processing, spreadsheets, presentation, email, calendars, videos, photos, music, contacts, maps, internet, games, electronic medical records and other physician tools, (in the healthcare sector), book, newspaper, and magazine e-reading... and at launch will have 150,000 software applications in productivity, media, entertainment, business, social networking and more.

In what possible way is it not a personal computer.

A fraud is someone who claims PCs are inferior in all ways, and then goes out and buys an HP. Done.

Okay name-caller, please explain how buying a PC for my child to game on is fraudulent.

I'll wait.

[john doe]

Okay, this thread is done since you guys can't play nice.