To mysticmoroni re: Mountain Meadows Massacre

[Mamas_Girl]

Is an expression of regret the same as an apology?

Not entirely, but close enough in this case, at least that's my belief. The critics have yet to truly prove that Brigham Young had anything to do with the killings, and in fact, the Church historians who have the actual documents have said that President Young did NOT want the attack carried out and sent a memo so stating, but it arrived too late.

Elder Eyring, in his 150th anniversary address, stated that local members of the church were responsible for carrying out the atrocities, and for that reason I believe that the Church was correct in issuing a regret. We regret that members of the church did such a thing. To listen to Elder Eyring address it is clear that it was meant as an apology.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Is an expression of regret the same as an apology?

An expression of regret is not the same, but sometimes, it's all you have to hang your hat on. I was a little disturbed once with someone's behavior, and mentioned it, and they said "I'm sorry you feel that way". That was the absolute WORST expression of regret out there, because they imply the situation is caused by YOU, having a problemtn, not their behavior impacting you negativelyh in anyway. They imply that you have the problem, and they aren't really apologizing -- they are doing an aggressive "come back at ya".

However, in the case of MMM, regret, or apology, I'm just thrilled the Church owned up to it. It boosts my faith to see them at least finally give some form of apology rather than continuing with a cover up. That is how an organization with a divine commission might be expected to behave when they make mistakes...

[Guest gopecon]

In this situation an expression of regret is about all that is possible. I can apologize for something that I was responsible for. Embarassing things in my families past are just that - in the past. I was in no way responsible for them, so I can not apologize for them. I can wish they made better choices and not try to defend the indefensible, but I can't undo what was done or pay any real price for it. The MMM was terrible, but it was not sanctioned by general Church leadership. No general authority alive today (nor any at the time) were responsible for what happened. It's a dark stain on our history, but it's one that today can only be addressed by symbolic gestures, not real repentance from those of us who are here today.

[Arnolt]

I once wrote s.th. about the MMM, and I'm trying to translate it:

(...)

When the treck was passing SLC it was forbidden to provide them with things they needed ... thus, the Fencher people became aggressiv... and feared the Mormons with sending a militia from California, to teach the Mormons a lesson how to handle with Americans. But the background was: the coming Civil War: US President Buchanan tried to distract the attention to the West ... to calm down in the coming North / South conflict...And Utah, as a territory and former non-American independent area named "Deseret" (once belonging to Mexico) feared an occupation by US troops and, of course, the loss of independence and their religious integrity by foreign infiltration. And there were people belonging to the Fencher wagon train who came from Arkansas, and it was still in remembrance what had happened there in the past and to one Mormon leader, Parley P. Pratt, who was shot there. So, was it vengeance or was it fear? Was it both? In fact it was a crueful and perfidious deed. Was it planned and was the Mormon leadership in SLC involved? I don't think so. But in my opinion Brigham Young should better have tried to bring more light into the events and circumstances and had hold those ones responsible who were guilty of that act of murder (not only Maj. John D. Lee), but he failed to clarify this dark moment in history and to investigate in this case. Justice was not done. Well, today no one can be hold responsible any more, of course. But it is a very dark shadow over the Church's history.

PS It should not be forgotten that the Ute indians were involved (because they were more crueful to proceed most of the killings of those poor and exhausted women there?), and so there must have been some plannings and agreements between the Ute and some local militia leaders (I don't say church leaders...) at least before... perhaps it was intended that the Ute should later have been made responsible for all that. Under this view, and firing on command in a back-stabbing and cowardly manner it was more than an excessive misdeed based on all the situation but more a planned and ice cold murder.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Arnolt

[Arnolt]

Is an expression of regret the same as an apology?

Where is the difference? When you say that you regret s.th. isn't it some kind of apology? And when you say that you apology for s.th. (without regrets) is it an honest apology? But who can apology for s.th. he didn't cause or do or could be hold responsible for? He only can honestly regret. And this is the only thing he can do. And he could critizise those ones who once were responsible...

By the way... the probability to become a Christian when you visit the church is bigger than the probability to become a car when you are standing in a garage.

Your avatar: it looks so mightyful for a woman. That makes me fear.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Arnolt

[Arnolt]

Better late, than never....I see this as a healthy step which is far better late than never. I also wonder, if you were one of the rank and file Mormons who were told by local leaders to put a bullet in the head of the people on the wagon train -- would you have done it given our commitment to obedience? How might you have arrived at what the right thing is to do in this situation?

Sorry: Thou shalt not kill.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Arnolt