How Bio-dads Foster Emaciated Religion

[prisonchaplain]

The first part of John 3:16 says

For God so loved the world

This is a denial of the assertions of the Deists and the Agnostics. Deists say that God may exist, but that he left us to our own wisdom, and does not involve himself in the affairs of humanity. Why would people believe this today? Frankly, it's what many "earthly fathers" have done. They donated their product, and then left mother and child to their own devices. This sad state of affairs is becoming so normal, that many , perhaps subconsciously, figure that if there is a God, he probably did the same.

Agnostics says that God may exist, but that he is unknowable. Those children who had dads in their home, often found them stoic, self-absorbed, and generally "unfathomable." So, once again, subconsciously, some may find it easy to believe that any "Heavenly Father" would be likewise unknowable.

The gospel answer is that our God is knowable, because he loves us. 1Jo 4:8: Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4:16: And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

We do not need to create anti-Deist/Agnostic sites, or commission missionaries to reach out to these "apostates." We simply need to raise up godly dads who are engaged in the lives of their children, and who care enough to make themselves understood.

[Jason]

The irony here is that most of the "dead-beat dads" out there are Christians. In fact, im sure that as a "prison chaplain" you meet plenty of God-fearing christians who've committed horrible crimes.

What would you estimate the ratio of atheist/agnostic/deist's are to Christians in our Nation's prison system? Let me just throw out a rough guestimate: 10,000 Christians in prison to 1 atheist/agnostic/deist?

The facts are, Chap, that most of the atheists, agnostics, and deists are among the most moral, upstanding, and reasonable people in our Nation. You're apparently closing your eyes to this obvious fact.

I'll bet you $50.00 via Paypal that there are more Christians per capita in jail than deists or atheists or agnostics. Wanna bet? (I'd even be willing to go down to the local county jail and do a poll. Im that confident that Im right.)

Edit:

Never mind. Apparently such research has been done.

STUDIES: ATHEISTS SUPPLY LESS THAN 1% OF PRISON POPULATIONS

by Wayne Aiken, North Carolina Director

AMERICAN ATHEISTS

It's surprising how many people remark to me, "You're an Atheist? You must have no conscience about committing crime then." Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, if we examine the population of our prisons, we see a very different picture.

In "The New Criminology," Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without religious training is about 1/10th of 1%. W.T. Root, Professor of Psychology at the University of Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said, "Indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character," adding that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers were absent from penitentiaries, or nearly so.

During 10 years in Sing-Sing, of those executed for murder 65% were Catholics, 26% Protestants, 6% Hebrew, 2% Pagan, and less than 1/3 of 1% non-religious.

Steiner and Swancara surveyed Canadian prisons and found 1,294 Catholics, 435 Anglicans, 241 Methodists, 135 Baptists, and 1 Unitarian.

Dr. Christian, Superintendent of the N.Y. State Reformatories, checked records of 22,000 prison inmates and found only 4 college graduates. In "Who's Who," 91% were college graduates; Christian commented that "intelligence and knowledge produce right living," and, "crime is the offspring of superstition and ignorance."

Surveyed Massachusetts reformatories found every inmate to be religious.

In Joliet Prison, there were 2,888 Catholics, 1,020 Baptists, 617 Methodists and no prisoners identified as non-religious.

Michigan had 82,000 Baptists and 83,000 Jews in the state population; but in the prisons, there were 22 times as many Baptists as Jews, and 18 times as many Methodists as Jews. In Sing-Sing, there were 1,553 inmates, 855 of them (over half) Catholics, 518 Protestants, 117 Jews, and 8 non-religious.

Steiner first surveyed 27 states and found 19,400 Christians, 5,000 with no preference and only 3 Agnostics (one each in Connecticut, New Hampshire, and Illinois). A later, more exhaustive survey found 60,605 Christians, 5,000 Jews, 131 Pagans, 4,000 "no preference," and only 3 Agnostics.

In one 19-state survey, Steiner found 15 non-believers, Spiritualists, Theosophists, Deists, Pantheists and 1 Agnostic among nearly 83,000 inmates. He labeled all 15 as "anti-christians." The Elmira, N.Y. reformatory system overshadowed all others, with nearly 31,000 inmates, including 15,694 Catholics (half) and 10,968 Protestants, 4,000 Jews, 325 refusing to answer, and 0 unbelievers.

In the East, over 64% of inmates are Roman Catholic. Throughout the national prison population, they average 50%. A national census of the general population found Catholics to be about 15% (and they count from the diaper up). Hardly 12% are old enough to commit a crime, and half of these are women. That leaves an adult Catholic population of 6% supplying 50% of the prison population.

Second edit: Apparently this information is horribly out of date. There are now 14% college grads in prison. Course, nearly everyone now-a-days is going or has been to college. Even with skewed figures, we can clearly see that the non-religious folks are not the problem.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by Jason@Dec 26 2005, 06:26 PM

The irony here is that most of the "dead-beat dads" out there are Christians.  In fact, im sure that as a "prison chaplain" you meet plenty of God-fearing christians who've committed horrible crimes.

This is actually a different topic--but an interesting one. First, I would be careful about assigning religion as a CAUSE of criminal behavior, as much as I would blaming racial background. Education, family dynamics, 'falling in with the wrong crowd,' etc. are probably stronger factors.

As for the # of deadbeat dads, my guess is that most of them, regardless of what religion they might claim, and "backslidden," "away from God," "jack," or whatever term you want to use for someone that may have been raised in a faith, of learned some tenets, but is not an active practioner.

For example, there is a common misperception that conservative Christian men commit child or spousal abuse at a higher rate than the national average. Ironically, a Catholic sociologist decided to research a little more in depth. What he found was:

1. Those conservative Christian men who WERE NOT REGULAR CHURCH ATTENDERS did commit a higher than average rate of abuse.

BUT

2. Those conservative Christian men who REGULARLY ATTEND CHURCH committed a lower than average rate of abuse.

I'm not suggesting that Deists/Agnostics are deadbeat dads, but rather that deadbeat dads, regardless of religion, may inadvertently create fertile ground for beliefs that God is distant and unknowable.

[sgallan]

Agnostics says that God may exist, but that he is unknowable. Those children who had dads in their home, often found them stoic, self-absorbed, and generally "unfathomable."

Interesting little fallacy. Let me give you a glimpse into one agnostic/athiest world.....

The estranged wife came over for Christmas on Friday. She looked skinny and had been acting odd. On Saturday she disappears for a couple of hours "shopping"... twice. On the second act I know what is going on and rumage through her stuff.... find a meth pipe and alcohol (she is a hardcore alcoholic). I warn the kid. Then send her to a friends house. And give the estranged one the boot. As well as (maybe) convince her I get full custody. I doubt it will be an issueas she is on probation (I had her arrested) and will doubtless be in jail or dead soon. I feel bad for her but I have a child to protect.

After all the trauma I put the kid back together. And we had a wonderful Christmas morning and day. Went to a skateboard park. Shot some air rockets. And ate a nice dinner over at Reni's friends house. And she got to do a sleep-over and the day after Christmas shopping thing.

Oh FWIW..... she is a Christian. Her general Christian beliefs would be generally described as LDS.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 26 2005, 08:43 PM

Agnostics says that God may exist, but that he is unknowable. Those children who had dads in their home, often found them stoic, self-absorbed, and generally "unfathomable."

Interesting little fallacy. Let me give you a glimpse into one agnostic/athiest world.....

Oh FWIW..... she (Meth-addicted spouse) is a Christian. Her general Christian beliefs would be generally described as LDS. 

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Let me repeat my thesis: Fathers who either disappear after conception (or soon after), or who are aloof, stoic, selfish, oafish, etc. may create fertile ground for their offspring to think that God, if He exists, is much like they are.

I am not insinuating that agnostic/atheist fathers are this way at all, nor am I saying there are not people who cling to belief in Jesus, who are not in many ways messed up.

Sgallon, your story is a sad one. I have nothing but admiration for the difficulties you have faced, and how you have put child first, and poured your energies into her, and into other volunteer work.

As for my "little fallacy"--perhaps you are misunderstanding my point. Your child will likely be well-rounded, regardless of her religion, because of your healthy, resilient approach to life. Even if she becomes a fundamentalist, she'll probably see her God much like she sees you, and feel reassurance rather than fear.

[Jason]

Originally posted by prisonchaplain

Fathers who either disappear after conception (or soon after), or who are aloof, stoic, selfish, oafish, etc. may create fertile ground for their offspring to think that God, if He exists, is much like they are.

Ok. How are you going to try and prove your thesis?

Just to add to Scott's good parenting stories, I too spend most of my free time with my children. I only take time for myself after they've gone to bed. I read stories to them, play board games with them, play with them, and tuck them into bed at night. I also get up at night in turns with my wife to check on them, get them some water, etc.

I attend all school/pre-school functions. I attend meetings that have anything to do with their education or well being. My oldest daughter has a phobia about dying (my mother died 2 years ago) and I've got her talking to the school counselor about it.

There's nothing I wouldn't do for my children. I raise them right, teach them the commonly held morality, and expect them to behave and be upstanding members of the community. Not for any god's sake, but because a good, philosophical and reasonable person should behave that way. (per the teachings of the great Socrates.)

Don't need Church. Don't need your gods. Don't need your "holy" books.

[sgallan]

Sgallon, your story is a sad one. I have nothing but admiration for the difficulties you have faced, and how you have put child first, and poured your energies into her, and into other volunteer work.

Sad is only an interpetation. Life just moves along and most of it is good. The sad part is her mom. But the rest is a success story so far.

As for my "little fallacy"--perhaps you are misunderstanding my point. Your child will likely be well-rounded, regardless of her religion, because of your healthy, resilient approach to life.

And the point of religion would be?

Even if she becomes a fundamentalist, she'll probably see her God much like she sees you, and feel reassurance rather than fear.

But this is not the definition of the fundamentalist god. That I will educate her about the various religious defintions of god.... and compare and contrast this to how she is being raised..... is my trump card. She is a smart kid, and the difference will become quickly apparent to her. Given she is logical yet tends to wear her heart on her sleeve like dad..... she'll catch on to this logic. Spin doesn't work as well with the critical mind. And to illustrate the point... she is already a diest.

[sgallan]

Jason -

If you get the chance and can pull it off.... volunteer afternoons, or regular time, in your kids classes. It rocks. All the grades are good, but Kindergarten is the best.

[Jason]

Originally posted by sgallan@Dec 26 2005, 10:43 PM

Jason -

If you get the chance and can pull it off.... volunteer afternoons, or regular time, in your kids classes. It rocks. All the grades are good, but Kindergarten is the best. 

←

Actually, my wife does that once a week already. We have to take turns sometimes. B)

[prisonchaplain]

Originally posted by Jason@Dec 26 2005, 09:14 PM

Ok.  How are you going to try and prove your thesis?

I'll give you an anecdotal and ironic example--considering how popular TV evangelists are at this site. Bishop T.D. Jakes came upon the notion that many women are estranged from God the Father, because of the difficult relationships they've had with their own fathers (and subsequently with their husbands). So, he hit upon a series of teachings entitled "Woman Thou Art Loosed." Women were so hungry to hear about a God who would not abuse, abandon, or fail to understand them, that they responded in droves. The teachings became a book, a movie, a music CD, etc.

If you are looking for a scientific study of some type, I'm not preparing a graduate thesis on this topic. It just seems intuitively right to me that those who's only experience with "father" has been remote or none, would view a Father God as remote or none.

Just to add to Scott's good parenting stories, I too spend most of my free time with my children.  ...

Nothing I'm hypothesizing is meant to suggest that atheists/agnostics/deists cannot be or are not wonderful parents. Most wonderful parents, regardless of faith, probably produce children who grow up believing similarly. However, even if the faith of the children diverges, chances are their religious practice will be healthier for the positive upbringing.

Don't need Church.  Don't need your gods.  Don't need your "holy" books.

This is a whole different topic. What do we need, spiritually? I know what I know, and you know what you know. If there is truth, one of us is wrong, and if there isn't an absolute truth, it probably doesn't matter one way or the other.