If ye obey the commandments you'll prosper in the land

[Rosabella]

So what of the victims of those disasters and upheavals? Were they all deserving of some punishment? I know the Great Depression was lasted longer in Utah than any other state. What was that all about?

This goes back to Snow's point that many things have been blamed on the Lord and that blame is unwarranted. For every unrighteous person crushed there were probably even more on the right path who were also crushed. Did these people suddenly become expendable pawns who were caught in God's headlights? When can a banana or an earthquake simply be a banana or an earthquake?

"When can a banana or an earthquake simply be a banana or an earthquake?"

When there is no God that created them, that is called atheism. Those who do not want to believe God's hand in all things do not want to believe in God.

What does your God really do? Who is the God you worship? What is He/She like? I am new here so I have no idea what you believe, but am interested in what kind of God you worship.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Rosabella

[Guest mormonmusic]

So what of the victims of those disasters and upheavals? Were they all deserving of some punishment? I know the Great Depression was lasted longer in Utah than any other state. What was that all about?

Well, D&C says that "against none is His anger kindled except those who confess not His hand in all things, and obey not His commandments". So, we're bound to acknowledge that God's hand is in all things -- both good and unpleasant events, and that both work together to fulfil his righteous purposes.

This goes back to Snow's point that many things have been blamed on the Lord and that blame is unwarranted. For every unrighteous person crushed there were probably even more on the right path who were also crushed. Did these people suddenly become expendable pawns who were caught in God's headlights? When can a banana or an earthquake simply be a banana or an earthquake?

For this one, I think we need to consider the story in the book of Mormon where the Anti-Nephi Lehis buried their swords and then went out defenseless against their enemies, and were cut to their deaths. These were righteous people. The Book of Mormon looks at their deaths positively, saying that those who were killed innocently were at least saved.

I think we all have bad and good periods in our lives, and if you take an eternal perspective, the people who are killed by calamaties during the peak of their righteousness are at least saved.

Also, everything can be attributed back to God at some point. God gave man agency knowing full well that man would inflict intolerable suffering on his fellow man. He also created the heavens and the earth, and must have known that the combination of the elements would produce hurricanes, earthquakes, etcetera. So ultimately, it all comes back to God.

Now, I agree that we shouldn't "blame him" -- because that implies bitterness. I think we can acknowlege these things ultimately come from God -- whether from his initial creation and granting mankind choice, or from His intervention -- but we have to look at these calamaties with faith and trust that ultimately, they are for our good.

[Urso]

Okay, I am tired of dancing around ths subject. I have made and lost fortunes in the past few years. Right now we are not wealthy but we have what we need. Every time this issue comes up in priesthood or Sunday school there is a sharp division. The haves think they are being blessed materially and the have nots think the 30+ references in the Book of Mormon cannot mean prosper materially because "they are righteous and they do not have any money" or they can point to a very wicked man who is prospering financially. I can too.

I have been studying this fervently because I am tired of seeing everyone run and hide when this issues is raised. Surely someone has a good answer that fully explains this thorny topic

Best

[Praetorian_Brow]

Whoa, a three year old thread from the dead. Lets wade into this one again, shall we!

So....if obeying God was all you needed to do to become wealthy monetarily, how is that Jesus wasn't the richest person in all of history? People will justify their circumstances no matter what, even if it is far fetched. I always chuckle when people talk of blessings, as if they are a form of currency that is a reward for desired behaviours. The action of doing said behaviours is the blessing, or the outcome is and is not necessarily the bonus. Incentives are great, but if one is doing said good works, then expecting a reward, misses the point.

Its cliche and fashionable to blame the present generation as more wicked than the last, as most people want to believe that their generation was the chosen one and view their childhood with rose tinted glasses.

Terrorism has always existed and will always exist, but living in fear sure does promote an arms industry or a belief that the world is worse than it is. Be prudent, but keep the hysterical fear mongering to a minimum.

Oh wait, forget all that. It must be Obama's fault.

[Vort]

So....if obeying God was all you needed to do to become wealthy monetarily,

That's not what the Book of Mormon teaches. Rather, you must obtain a "hope in Christ". That encompasses more than mere obedience, though of course obedience is a necessary precondition.

how is that Jesus wasn't the richest person in all of history?

Because he didn't seek riches. That's the other half of the teaching: First you obtain a hope in Christ, and then you will obtain riches, IF YOU SEEK THEM.

People will justify their circumstances no matter what, even if it is far fetched. I always chuckle when people talk of blessings, as if they are a form of currency that is a reward for desired behaviours. The action of doing said behaviours is the blessing, or the outcome is and is not necessarily the bonus. Incentives are great, but if one is doing said good works, then expecting a reward, misses the point.

That is true, but it also sidesteps the whole "riches" teaching. The verse goes on to explain why on earth anyone would ever bother to seek riches in the first place:

and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

Note that this is not phrased as a commandment -- "ye shall seek them for the intent to do good" -- but as a simple observation: "ye will seek them for the intent to do good". This is not a bargain that God offers the obedient. Rather, those who are truly Godly may indeed seek riches, and they will be granted those riches; but in every case, they will without exception seek those riches to help others, and not to aggrandize themselves or increase their comfort.

If you are LDS and you seek riches but haven't received them, there are exactly two possibilities: (1) You have not yet obtained a hope in Christ; or, (2) you have obtained a hope in Christ but are not seeking riches for the correct, utterly selfless, purpose. Possibly, #2 necessarily implies #1, but I'm not convinced of that. However that may be, the teaching is pretty clear.

[Praetorian_Brow]

I find it comforting that you make a habit of instructing me or answering my questions, Vort. Its so refreshing even when most of them are rhetorical in nature. One could illustrate the difficulties of communicating on the internet, but I would hope by now that you have seen a common theme with my posts.

It always confuses me when when Americans tie their constitution into their religion. If what you say is true, then how come the U.S. is the richest country in the world, or used to be rather. Has the rest of the world been extremely wicked for the last 60 years?

[Guest]

closed because it's a really old thread, and immediately devolved into bickering.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Eowyn