Outshined Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 That's a rather unclear answer, but in light of the LaurelTree predicament, I am striving to be contention-free... strivestrivestrivestrivestrivestrivestrivestrivestrivestrive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 <div class='quotemain'>It was clear to anyone who can read and interpret English, Mrs. A, but it wasn't clear to Outshined, so I was trying to help him SEE why he was having trouble understanding you.Oh boy, Ray wants to get into the personal insult game! Hold onto your hat, Nancy... Heh, No, I do not want to get into the “personal insult game”, and I did not intend to insult you. I simply meant that most people who can read and interpret English know there is a difference between IS and WAS.Just because you find yourself in agreement with the obtuse one doesn't make you anything special, okay? I suggest you get over yourself, and quick.Okay. Let me get this straight. I’m not anything special, because you and others don’t think so, and because you and others don’t think so, I should change how I feel about myself? I’ll give due consideration to your comments.<div class='quotemain'>Based on your track record, Outshined, I'm inclined to believe you have another misunderstanding, but I will read what she said if you will find and quote that statement.What "track record" is that Ray Baby? May we assume you have actual examples to offer instead of empty rhetoric? Sounds more like a little "sour grapes" action...Let's see it.Since you didn’t provide the quote I asked for, I won’t do your research for you, but I can recall several conversations you’ve had with Snow over this issue, and on those instances I could see this truth.And FYI, I do not appreciate someone who presumes they can call me Ray “Baby”, so consider that when I no longer respond to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanstress70 Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 I'm striving too. Thank you for this most interesting discussion, guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outshined Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 You're just making noise, Ray. Your personal insults are ignored. Sorry if you don't "like" my posts, but you'll get over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Edited by Aristotle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amphiblitz Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 <div class='quotemain'>On another board I frequent, we call exchanges like this "post count padding". AHEM!! >cough!cough!< Sorry. Forget I said that. Carry on! PostCount = PostCount + 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outshined Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Yes, indeed, how can God's commandments demean women?They don't, ma'am, and never have. It was not demeaning to anyone in the early Church. Modern opinions and mindsets would possibly make women feel that way now, but not all, as some still choose such a lifestyle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Edited by Aristotle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 <div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>So you'd accept the word of the prophet if he reinstated polygamy?Ari, would you please answer this question of Outshined? First you said the only way you would practice polygamy is if Jesus Christ personally told you to do it.Logically, that means that you would not do it if the prophet told you to.Then you said, "Who said I would defy the prophet? Certainly not I."Would you please answer this question with no silly word games? We're all curious.Shanstress, please don't imply that I play word games, because I don't.Also, please don't make assumptions on my behalf.I have answered the question to the best of my ability.I don't know what circumstances lie in the future, so I know of no other way to answer this question.The fact that I love the Lord, and will obey Him if he personally commands me to practice polygamy, should suffice.Just for the record, I wouldn’t practice polygamy just because the Prophet told me to either, because I only obey the Prophet when I know he is in harmony with my Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outshined Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Sorry, sir, but I have read what women have said in the past about being forced against their will to practice polygamy. Women of today don't feel any different, except they are more outspoken about it.Incidentally, the women who choose that lifestyle are not members of our Church.Of course they aren't members, but they are women who accept such a lifestyle.I've read many quotes and journals from women of that period, and many were very happy with it. It would be silly to think that they all would be, just as it would be to think that they all were not.Women today look at it from a modern perspective, a far cry from the time we are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 You're just making noise, Ray. Your personal insults are ignored.Sorry if you don't "like" my posts, but you'll get over it. First of all, I did not personally insult you, and I'm sorry if you think I did.Secondly, Thank you for dropping the "Baby", and I hope we will continue to talk.And finally, I do like many of your posts, and I'm already over the ones I didn't like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outshined Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 First of all, I did not personally insult you, and I'm sorry if you think I did.Secondly, Thank you for dropping the "Baby", and I hope we will continue to talk.And finally, I do like many of your posts, and I'm already over the ones I didn't like.Forgotten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanstress70 Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Just for the record, I wouldn’t practice polygamy just because the Prophet told me to either, because I only obey the Prophet when I know he is in harmony with my Lord.There is a difference in saying what you said, Ray, and what Ari said: that she will only practice it if it came personally from Jesus Christ. Personally, does not mean 'through a prophet'... whether that prophet is 'in harmony' with the Lord or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Edited by Aristotle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outshined Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Women loved their husbands then; they love their husbands now. Why would a woman who loves her husband want to share him with another woman? How would men feel if they were commanded to share their wives with another man? I suppose perhaps some polygamist wives were happy...but many more were not...and we know of at least one famous sister in history who was not! (Not to mention the unmentionable.)Sarah loved Abraham just as any woman loves her husband, he loved her, and God loves all His children. He would not ask of us that which makes us miserable or demeans us. I believe it looks different to us now because we view it through the filter of our modern society.I question the "many more" statement of course, beacause we frankly don't have that much information from them. I've seen journals of women who were happy in that time, and perhaps people aren't strong enough now to endure what the pioneers did, including plural marriage. It was for the righteous, and it had to be hard to live up to the standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Edited by Aristotle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outshined Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 What is it that you wish me to say, shanstress? I believe she wants you to say that if the prophet announced tommorrow that we will practice it again, that you'd accept it. Or not.EDIT: I don't think my life would change much, as I can't imaging considering myself worthy to live a Higher Law such as that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanstress70 Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 <div class='quotemain'>There is a difference in saying what you said, Ray, and what Ari said: that she will only practice it if it came personally from Jesus Christ. Personally, does not mean 'through a prophet'... whether that prophet is 'in harmony' with the Lord or not.What is it that you wish me to say, shanstress?I understand that this is a huge issue with you, and others you know, who no longer identify themselves with the Church.Does it come as a surprise to you that many of the sisters (perhaps the majority) who are active members of the Church have expressed the same sentiments?I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, Ari, but I was explaining to Ray what question I was asking you. I am not going to discuss it anymore. Sorry if I touched a nerve with you. Yes, I know that it is a difficult subject for most, if not all, LDS women.Hopefully if you are happy with the rest of your religion, you will be able to dismiss it and not let it get you down, as I so often did. If not, it isn't the end of the world. I'm still alive and kickin' (and happy too)! And I ain't goin to no lesser heaven, either, despite what some would say! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Edited by Aristotle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outshined Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 All I'll say on that is that it obviously is not trivial to God. I'll not second-guess Him on that. And a lot of the "suffering" is in modern perception, probably not so much in reality... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 <div class='quotemain'>Just for the record, I wouldn’t practice polygamy just because the Prophet told me to either, because I only obey the Prophet when I know he is in harmony with my Lord.There is a difference in saying what you said, Ray, and what Ari said: that she will only practice it if it came personally from Jesus Christ. Personally, does not mean 'through a prophet'... whether that prophet is 'in harmony' with the Lord or not.I do not agree that there is necessarily a difference between what I said and what Mrs. A. said, because when I said that I only obey the Prophet when I know he is in harmony with our Lord, I meant that I only obey the Prophet when I know he is revealing something which I know to be in harmony with I know to be personal revelation from my Lord.Or in other words, I only follow the Prophet when I know the Prophet is revealing something which is in harmony with revelation that I personally receive by personal revelation from Jesus Christ, through the power of the Holy Ghost.Perhaps you are thinking that personal revelation from Jesus Christ only comes when He stands in front of someone in His personal and physical form, and reveals something with His personal and physical mouth, but that is not what I believe “personally” means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanstress70 Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 <div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>Just for the record, I wouldn’t practice polygamy just because the Prophet told me to either, because I only obey the Prophet when I know he is in harmony with my Lord.There is a difference in saying what you said, Ray, and what Ari said: that she will only practice it if it came personally from Jesus Christ. Personally, does not mean 'through a prophet'... whether that prophet is 'in harmony' with the Lord or not.I do not agree that there is necessarily a difference between what I said and what Mrs. A. said, because when I said that I only obey the Prophet when I know he is in harmony with our Lord, I meant that I only obey the Prophet when I know he is revealing something which I know to be in harmony with I know to be personal revelation from my Lord.Or in other words, I only follow the Prophet when I know the Prophet is revealing something which is in harmony with revelation that I personally receive by personal revelation from Jesus Christ, through the power of the Holy Ghost.Perhaps you are thinking that personal revelation from Jesus Christ only comes when He stands in front of someone in His personal and physical form, and reveals something with His personal and physical mouth, but that is not what I believe “personally” means.There is a difference, Ray, in personal revolution through a prophet, and what I think Ari means in this statement: "IF we are commanded personally by Jesus Christ to practice polygamy, we would"If I'm wrong, Ari, correct me please. (BTW, this is no longer a debate with you; I'm just trying to show Ray what I'm talking about.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Edited by Aristotle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outshined Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 polygamy is outlawed in the Church, and if it is ever reinstated, there's a pretty good chance that few of us would ever be called to practice it. I agree with that.I would recommend that you check out some of what Gracia Jones, a descendent of Emma's, learned about Emma's feelings on polygamy.Done it;, and read many others. As I said, modern attitudes affect how we see the issue.That is a lot of effort expended on a pointless thread.Actually, the original thread wasn't pointless, it just went that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristotle Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Edited by Aristotle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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