Scholar's Corner: The stolen chapters of Mosiah

[Justice]

OK, here's the thing... I hope you go slow so you can follow this and be the first to tell me I'm not crazy...

If, as is stated in the articles you have posted, that Mormon wrote The Words of Mormon to bridge the "gap" between the Large Plates and Small Plates, what could it mean?

The Plates of Mormon did not gap.

Plain and simple, Mormon abridged from Nephi down to King Benjamin:

Words of Mormon 3:

...after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin...

We know his abridgement included King Benjamin and through to the end of their history (because we have it), BUT it also included an abridgement from Nephi down to Benjamin (as he says)... AND we KNOW it also included Lehi, but he did not mention Lehi in his verse!!

CLEARLY, he is saying "I already made an abridgement from Nephi to King Benjamin" BECAUSE he is speaking about ONLY that portion of his abridgement that deals with the same time period as the Small Plates.

But, there was no gap in Mormon's original abridgement of the Large Plates.

So, what is this gap that Mormon filled with the Words of Mormon? Why did he even need to write Words of Mormon if he included the Small Plates AND his abridgement of the Large Plates from Nephi to King Benjamin, which had no gap?

He removed his abridgement from Nephi until King Benjamin... thus creating a gap that he needed to fill with some more words, or the Word of Mormon... BECAUSE the Small Plates did not sufficiently bridge the 2 (from Amaleki and King Mosiah I to King Benjamin)!!

I have felt that Mormon was saying he removed his portion of the abridgement for this time period and replaced it with the Small Plates just by the wording he uses, but have not "seen" the evidence until now.

This gap HAD TO BE the removal of a portion of his abridgement! Otherwise, there was no gap, and it is even corroborated by Mormon himself!

He DID remove that portion that is covered by the Small Plates!

Edited June 29, 2010 by Justice

[Justice]

"So that a gap would not occur in the history of the Nephites, Mormon included major events of the life-time of King Benjamin in The Words of Mormon, thus connecting the account on the small plates of Nephi with Mormon's abridgment of the book of Mosiah."

This is so clear to me now. The only reason a gap existed is because Mormon removed. or "chose" the Small Plates over his own abridgement. There was no gap in Mormon's adbridgement because he tells us he abridged from Nephi (even Lehi) down to King Benjamin.

Had the 116 pages not been lost (which was the Book of Lehi -- see heading to D&C 10) we would have the exact same Book of Mormon. There was no chance to error and include the abridgement of the Large Plates from Lehi to King Benjamin because Mormon pulled it and inserted the Small Plates in their place.

Now, I want you to point out any flaws in this logic.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Justice

[Justice]

Now all I have to do is read D&C 10 slowly and carefully... and prayerfully, and see what it's really saying.

I'm also going to do the same with the portions of Joseph Smith's journal you posted.

Thank you.

[Hemidakota]

I still have not straightened this out in my mind. I know that Mormon buried the Brass Paltes and the Large Plates of Nephi (and many other records) before he gave his abridgement, the Small Plates, and the Plates of Ether to Moroni. I'm not certain he buried them in Cumorah, or, I'm not certain if the hill he buried them in (if it was called Cumorah) was the same hill as the one Moroni buried his records in. To me, it doesn't matter either way, the plates are hidden and we can't or won't get them until we're ready for them.

I'll ponder on this a bit more. Perhaps it was the same hill.

I believe it is. I left a message on an earlier post on the forum, concerning Joseph Smith account about the last days, where the church will again unearth the plates for translation. I truly believe all of these plates are located within the vicinity of the New Jerusalem.

Even with the cave story, someone from the church already managed to use ground penetrate radar on the hill, seeking to find or verifying if there is a cave. The results were negative. Even if David Whitmer was right with his story, stating it is near the hill, I highly doubt we are allowed to unbury the plates or find the cave. But, both Joseph and Oliver stated, when they approach the hill (North West side), the hill just opened up. This makes me believe, unknown powers was used by Moroni in transferring both of them to another location may be the probable answer. But I could be wrong.

In my own curiosity, I have obtained a USGS earlier photo of the hill and can easily see ground marking, what looks like a canal or venting holes on top of the hill, arrows pointing towards the hill on both sides, and so forth. The interesting part, it looks like a entrance on the middle southern side of the hill. Strange but interesting to note these ground features.

Remember Justice, never had Joseph called the hill Cumorah. He simply called it a hill. I have the same map that is filed in the church archives revealing the journeys of Moroni drawn by two members of the church. It reveals that Moroni started in the land of desolation and through various stoppages, Moroni ended at the hill. But, this is another topic.

[Hemidakota]

Now all I have to do is read D&C 10 slowly and carefully... and prayerfully, and see what it's really saying.

I'm also going to do the same with the portions of Joseph Smith's journal you posted.

Thank you.

I would suggest in purchasing a book(s) that gives all of his journal entries.

[Justice]

I actually have the first one... I need to find it.

What do you think about "bridging the gap" that didn't exist in his original abridgement, that actually was from Lehi to 4th Nephi?

Remember, the gap wasn't created when the 116 pages were lost, because Mormon wrote the words that filled the gap. Since there was no gap in his full abridgement, the gap didn't exist until he insterted the small plates, meaning he had to remove something to create the gap.

The gap was from Amaleki (end of the small plates) to King Benjamin, exactly what was covered by Words of Mormon.

[Hemidakota]

Now that is new one on me...I have to read it.

Late edit:

"And it hath become expedient that I, according to the will of God, that the prayers of those who have gone hence, who were the holy ones, should be fulfilled according to their faith, should make a record of these things which have been done—Yea, a small record of that which hath taken place from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem, even down until the present time. Therefore I do make my record from the accounts which have been given by those who were before me, until the commencement of my day; And then I do make a record of the things which I have seen with mine own eyes. . . . I am Mormon, and a pure descendant of Lehi . . . (3 Nephi 5:14-17, 20)."

---------------------------------------------

3 And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi.

4 And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; and my fathers knowing that many of them have been fulfilled; yea, and I also know that as many things as have been prophesied concerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass—

5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people.

6 But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren.

(plates where added after the fact)

7 And I do this for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come; wherefore, he worketh in me to do according to his will.

8 And my prayer to God is concerning my brethren, that they may once again come to the knowledge of God, yea, the redemption of Christ; that they may once again be a delightsome people.

9 And now I, Mormon, proceed to finish out my record, which I take from the plates of Nephi; and I make it according to the knowledge and the understanding which God has given me.

10 Wherefore, it came to pass that after Amaleki had delivered up these plates into the hands of king Benjamin, he took them and put them with the other plates, which contained records which had been handed down by the kings, from generation to generation until the days of king Benjamin. (Words of Mormon 1:3-9)

Ok, here are my thoughts on this:

1] The small plates of Nephi was discountinued for about 500 plus years until 385AD (see Book of Mormon v.2:1). This abridgement was added to the smaller plates of Nephi. Later. Joseph Smith seperated Mormon writing from the smaller plates when the manuscript was lost. The portion of the larger plates, still continue but after KB.

2] These plates were added to his collection of work and handed over to Moroni.

3] Moroni added his words until there were no more room.

4] Moroni adds Lehi record

5] Moroni adds his plates

Justice, I am convince Mormon extended the small plates of Nephi to the book of Mosiah. What is seen, the small plates of Nephi was a religious record of early Nephites, and Mormon's abridgment of the large plates of Nephi from the Mosiah to his record was a religious record of later Nephites. The Words of Mormon, added textual history to the small plates of Nephi thus combined the two great religious records into one book.

He had the larger plates [Lehi --> kings ---> to his day] , which was completed to his days. He also had the smaller plates, which we find his record was added on as the last reminding plates were mostly either blank or was added too. There is no known answer for this. He made the abridgement not before but after the larger plates. Noting the end of the smaller plate record, Mormon filled the gap to what was the larger plates. He two set of records as stated above scriptures (see verse 6).

What I suspect the order of the plates Joseph Smith witnessed:

MORMON NARRATION ----> SMALLER PLATES + WORDS OF MORMON + BOOK OF MORMON + [WORDS] MORONI ----> JAREDITE ----> MORONI

We can easily see, Mormon used the larger plates to bridge the gap of the smaller plates then added the smaller plates at the end of the larger plates collection. Two set of records. Remember, the larger plates already had the history from Lehi to his days from the collection that was given to him by Amaleki.

Moving on, Mormon abridged his own words on the smaller plates as stated, included chapter 1 thru 5. But, chapter 6 thru 7, it looks like it was written after the final battle when we see the result of the final battle. So what happened to the larger plates of Nephi? Even the Book of Lehi, or the larger plates, seemed to end at later portion of King Benjamin tenure. I believe the next plates were the Plates of Mosiah (chapter 2) when KB handed the reign to Mosiah. Puzzling here, we do know Amaleki was the last writer of the small plates when you read Omni 1:30, then Mormon adds his abridgement (Words of Mormon). Did he in fact add another plate to the smaller record? Or as I stated, used the remaining portion of the plates (Words or Mormon 1:5)?

Edited July 1, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Justice]

Sure...

We know Mormon abridged the Book of Lehi... it was the lost 116 pages, and called specifically by Joseph Smith (and the heading to D&C 10) the Book of Lehi.

We know Mormon abridged from King Benjamin to 4th Nephi because we have it today.

The gray area is did he abridge Nephi to King Benjamin, or did he just use the Small Plates...

WoM:

3: ...after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin...

The emphatic answer is YES! He made an abridgement of Nephi to King Benjamin, meaning...

He abridged from Lehi to 4th Nephi...

..leaving NO GAP in his abridgement of the Large Plates.

So, as I said before, there are 1 of 2 possibilities:

Mormon included BOTH his abridgement of the Large Plates AND the Small Plates, and the lost 116 pages contained from Lehi to King Benjamin (which is the prevailing opinion) OR he pulled his abridgement of the time period covered by the Small Plates and inserted the Small Plates in their place.

What does the evidence suggest?

First and foremost, if he included his abridgement of the Large Plates of this time period, why even write the Words of Mormon to fill a gap that didn't exist?

The wording of Words of Mormon suggests a "choice," or "either or," not that he "included the Small Plates WITH his abridgement."

D&C 10 suggests Joseph Smith "retained" a portion of something he already translated, meaning (imo) he retained the portion of the Plates of Mormon (untranslated) that he had previously translated from (Book of Lehi).

Nephi calls his plates that he wrote on the Plates of Nephi, and Jacob calls his plates that he wrote on in the Small Plates (even though Nephi made them) the Plates of Jacob. So, Nephi did not write in the Book of Lehi, he wrote in the Book of Nephi on the Large Plates, meaning the Book of Lehi did not extend to King Benjamin.

The wording is all consistent, it just takes a prayerful study of WoM and D&C 10.

[Hemidakota]

Read above for my results...

[Just_A_Guy]

Two things I'll just throw out, Justice:

1) When we went over this earlier, I cited Note 67 to Chapter 3 of Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism as standing for the proposition that 1 Nephi was translated last.

2) I'm having trouble following the entire discussion, but where do we get the idea that Words of Mormon exists primarily to bridge a chronological gap? It seems to me entirely reasonable that the small plates of Nephi would differ materially in their appearance from the plates on which Mormon wrote his abridgement; couldn't Mormon have simply wanted to explain to the translator what what these other plates were and how they were supposed to be put together?

[Justice]

I have heard this all my life, Just_A_Guy. Even the professor quoted in this discussion used this very language, that the Word of Mormon was used to bridge the gap between the Small and Large Plates.

Edit: also, Nephi made both sets of plates about the same time. I believe they were basically the same size, shape, and thickness. It also stands to reason that they were the same size as the Brass Plates, since he probably used those as a model. The plates of Ether would have been the only ones that maybe were a different size, but they were bound or sealed, and were not to be opened.

The question I'm really trying to answer is did Mormon include BOTH his abridgement of the Large Plates from Nephi to King Benjamin AND the Small Plates.

I believe Mormon says he "chose" the Small Plates over his abridgement for the same time period.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Justice

[Justice]

Justice, I am convince Mormon extended the small plates of Nephi to the book of Mosiah.

Yes. The most logical way he did this was by adding a plate to the end of them (for Words of Mormon). As was noted by Amaleki they were full when he finished them. For some reason, from Jarom to Amaleki, no one chose to make more plates. Mormon made plates for his abridgement, presumably the same size as the plates Nephi made.

To anyone, if you just read the Words of Mormon it's clear what his purpose was in making it, and putting it 500 years earlier in the record.

He two set of records as stated above scriptures (see verse 6).

He had all the records, meaning Mormon, not Joseph Smith. As far as I can tell, he (Joseph Smith) never had any portion of the Large Plates of Nephi in his possession. I'd like to see something that says he did.

What I suspect the order of the plates Joseph Smith witnessed:

LARGE PLATES ----> SMALLER PLATES + WORDS OF MORMON + BOOK OF MORMON + [WORDS] MORONI ----> JAREDITE ----> MORONI

Not sure what you mean by "witnessed," but his translation of Lehi, then Mosiah to the end, came from the Plates of Mormon, or the abridged set.

So, he started in Lehi from the Plates of Mormon, then, D&C 10 says he went to the "Plates of Nephi" next, which can only mean the Small Plates, since he never had the Large Plates.

We can easily see, Mormon used the larger plates to bridge the gap of the smaller plates then added the smaller plates at the end of the larger plates collection. Two set of records. Remember, the larger plates already had the history from Lehi to his days from the collection that was given to him by Amaleki.

I disagree. In AD 385 Mormon was finished, or nearly finished, with his abridgement of the Large Plates.

Mormon 6:

6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

It was a done deal. He may have already even buried all the records "which had been passed into his hands" which were sacred. He made an abridgement so they (or Moroni) could have the scriptures to read. He knew from the history of the people Mosiah I discovered in Zarahemla what happened to people who did not have scriptures.

Moving on, Mormon abridged his own words on the smaller plates as stated, included chapter 1 thru 5. But, chapter 6 thru 7, it looks like it was written after the final battle when we see the result of the final battle. So what happened to the larger plates of Nephi? Even the Book of Lehi, or the larger plates, seemed to end at later portion of King Benjamin tenure. I believe the next plates were the Plates of Mosiah (chapter 2) when KB handed the reign to Mosiah. Puzzling here, we do know Amaleki was the last writer of the small plates when you read Omni 1:30, then Mormon adds his abridgement (Words of Mormon). Did he in fact add another plate to the smaller record? Or as I stated, used the remaining portion of the plates (Words or Mormon 1:5)?

Mormon did not abridge (or write) his own record onto the Small Plates, it had to be the plates he made... he didn't even discover the Small Plates until after Mormon 6, when he wrote Words of Mormon.

Think about it... it'll come to you. You're very close, Hemi!!

If you want I'll try to lay it out more clearly again. Let me know. This took quite a while for me to see.

Hemi, the language Mormon uses in the early part of Words of Mormon is very clearly making a "choice" to use the Small Plates instead of his abridgement of the Large Plates covering the same time period. Had he not "inserted" the Small Plates he would have left his abridgement from Nephi to King Benjamin. I don't know the logic in thinking he would have included 2 records of the same time period. Also, it doesn't make much sense that Mormon would make a "filler" page if he included the entire history he already had translated (including from Nephi to King Benjamin).

Also, Hemi, note that Mormon claims to be writing in his plates, or in his abridgement, in Mormon 6, not the Small Plates (underlined above).

Edited July 1, 2010 by Justice

[Hemidakota]

Mormon narration of 500-years of history = Large Plates. Sorry. I went back and change it.

Even though I used this term, the discovery of the smaller plates, Mormon was seeking more information among the plates he held in his possession to fill gap history of the larger plates to Mosiah.

The smaller plates were simply added into the plates collection stated in the Words of Mormon, read again what he states above, with his narration of Nephite history. We already know, Joseph did translate Mormon own narration of the larger plates up to KB, this was the missing manuscript. He did not translate smaller plates of Nephi until after the fact.

In the LDS Church News, 1988

"The two pages comprising The Words of Mormon are approximately 500 years out of context," wrote Daniel H. Ludlow in A Companion to Your Study of the Book of Mormon. "Note the approximate date at the end of the book of Omni is 130 B.C. whereas the Words of Mormon are dated about 384 A.D....

"The Words of Mormon were apparently written near the end of Mormon's life for the purpose of connecting two major records. It was made known to Mormon 'by the workings of the Spirit of the Lord' that the small plates of Nephi (which ended when Benjamin was an old man about ready to die).

"So that a gap would not occur in the history of the Nephites, Mormon included major events of the life-time of King Benjamin in The Words of Mormon, thus connecting the account on the small plates of Nephi with Mormon's abridgment of the book of Mosiah."

In a chapter in Studies in Scripture: 1 Nephi to Alma 29, Victor L. Ludlow wrote: "At the beginning of the Book of Mormon history, Nephi had been commanded to make two separate sets of plates. After starting what would be known as the large plates of Nephi, he was later commanded to make a set of more religious records, known as the small plates of Nephi. (1 Ne. 9:2,4 and 1:17.)

"After Nephi's death, the large plates remained with the kings down to the time of Mormon, while the small plates went to Jacob and his posterity until the time of Amaleki, who gave them to King Benjamin. Thus the two sets of plates were back into the possession of one person.

"After Mormon had completed his abridgment of 500 years of Nephite history, he may have been somewhat surprised to find the small plates of Nephi, which largely duplicated his efforts. Instead of keeping only one of the sets of records, Mormon was prompted to include the small plates with his abridgment, without really knowing why. (W of M 1:7.)"

One hundred sixteen pages of manuscript from the plates of Mormon were lost after Joseph Smith had translated them. Since the small plates contained a more spiritual account of the same time period, the teachings of greater value were preserved.

Thanks again...I never seen it myself in comparing my own thinking until I added this reference. Edited July 1, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Justice, I can thank you again for your insight and patience for me. I came to learn some personal insights last night, helping me to gain a greater clarity on the plates arrangements. I would never knew this if it wasn't for this moment of exchanges of thinking between us.

To add a historical moment:

July 1, 1828 — Manchester, New York. Joseph Smith arrived at his father's farm and learned from Martin Harris that the 116 manuscript pages of the book of Lehi had been lost. (Library-Archives, Community of Christ, Independence, MO)

(I now stand corrected to my belief on when the book was completed - see below)

July 1, 1829— Fayette, New York. On or before this date, Joseph Smith completed the translation of the Book of Mormon. ("Last Testimony of Sister Emma," February 9, 1879, The Saints' Advocate 2 (October 1879): 50–51)

Edited July 1, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Justice]

I appreciate that. But, I'm stubborn, and I don't think you're quite there yet...

Here's another thought. How many times in the Small Plates does Nephi refer to "his other plates," or the Large Plates? I didn't count them, but I know it's serveral times.

Nephi is the ONLY author who wrote in the Large Plates and the Small Plates.

If Nephi mentioned the Large Plates in the Small Plates multiple times, it would stand to reason that he mentioned the Small Plates while writing the Large Plates. Keep that thought in mind.

As I said earlier, we have solid evidence, even proof, that Mormon abridged the Large Plates from Lehi to 4th Nephi, leaving no time gap in their history. If this is not the case, I'd like to see the evidence that suggests otherwise. I can repost the scriptures that show this if you missed them.

We also know that Mormon did not find the Small Plates until after his abridgement of the Large Plates. It says in Mormon 6 that he had already buried all the records that had been passed into his hands.

Now, back to Nephi... if in the Small Plates Nephi wrote that his other plates contained the more history of the wars and government, what would he have said about the Small Plates when writing in the Large Plates? Obviously, that his "other plates" (the Small Plates) contained a more spiritual record of their revelations and prophecies (or something to that effect).

Mormon read this while he was reading from the Large Plates. I don't think he accidentally happend on the Small Plates, nor do I think he was looking to fill any gap, because we KNOW there was no gap in his abridgement of the Large Plates. He read about the Small Plates, and what they contained, and he SEARCHED for them to get the more spiritual words recorded on them.

He probably didn't have time to look through all the records while he was abridging. When he was done he probably went back and looked for it. When he found it, he preferred it, probably because he was prompted, and replaced his abridgement of that time period covered by the Large Plates with the Small Paltes. And THAT is what casued the gap in time, which brought about the need for Words of Mormon. Again, if he did not remove a portion of his abridgement, it was complete... it did not have a gap in time. The Large Plates did not have a gap in time.

It just makes too much sense. There's no reason to include 2 records of the same time period, especially if you "prefer" one over the other.

More to think about.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Justice

[Justice]

...the funny thing is, the "stolen chapters of Mosiah" were stolen by Mormon when he pulled that portion of his abridgement and replaced it with the Small Plates. Why not ask where his abridgement of Nephi through King Benjamin went also?

I know many think it was all part of the 116 pages that were lost.

I say, no way. The fact that Mormon even added that filler to bridge the gap proved he pulled the record, because that is the only way that gap could have existed in his day.

[Justice]

Moving along in Words of Mormon, listen to how he tries to describe what he's doing:

6 But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren.

Very interesting wording.

I shall take these plates

Meaning the Small Plates that he just found...

and put them with the remainder of my record

Put them with the remainder of my record...

The Small Plates of Nephi was NOT his record. This is curious wording.

Try to see which fits better:

1) Mormon is going to include them with his entire abridgement, thus the remainder of his record (doesn't make sense), or

2) Mormon replaced a portion of his record with these plates and he is putting the Small Plates with the rest of his record he gave to Moroni, or the remainder he did not remove.

Clearly, Mormon is still using words of choice and removal and replacing, not just adding to.

7 And I do this for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come; wherefore, he worketh in me to do according to his will.

Again, go back to where I discussed why replacing this time period with the Small Plates was considered a "wise purpose."

Edit: Hemi, PM me your phone nuymber. It would be much easier to discuss over the phone.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Justice

[Justice]

Sorry to resurrect this older thread, but I discovered more evidence while reading today.

Once again, it was the same old verses in the same place I had been studying, but understood or applied in a new way.

After using several verses to try to convery that he removed a portion of his abridgement and replaced it with the Small Plates (according to me), we find this verse:

10 Wherefore, it came to pass that after Amaleki had delivered up these plates into the hands of king Benjamin, he took them and put them with the other plates, which contained records which had been handed down by the kings, from generation to generation until the days of king Benjamin.

Why is this verse significant, and how does it help my theroy that Mormon didn't simply put the SMall Plates with his entire abridgement?

Well, frankly, because he did not say he did like he said King Benjamin did here:

10 Wherefore, it came to pass that after Amaleki had delivered up these plates into the hands of king Benjamin, he took them and put them with the other plates, which contained records which had been handed down by the kings, from generation to generation until the days of king Benjamin.

King Benjamin simply took the Small Plates and put them with the other plates, or the Large Plates.

If Mormon simply took the Small Plates and put them with his other plates this would have been very easy to say, just like he did here.

All he had to say was I took these plates and put them with my other plates, if that's all he did.

I maintain that he is describing more.

[Hemidakota]

I will ponder this tonight after FHE. Thanks again Justice.

[Hemidakota]

Sorry to resurrect this older thread, but I discovered more evidence while reading today.

Once again, it was the same old verses in the same place I had been studying, but understood or applied in a new way.

After using several verses to try to convery that he removed a portion of his abridgement and replaced it with the Small Plates (according to me), we find this verse:

10 Wherefore, it came to pass that after Amaleki had delivered up these plates into the hands of king Benjamin, he took them and put them with the other plates, which contained records which had been handed down by the kings, from generation to generation until the days of king Benjamin.

Why is this verse significant, and how does it help my theroy that Mormon didn't simply put the Small Plates with his entire abridgement?

Well, frankly, because he did not say he did like he said King Benjamin did here:

10 Wherefore, it came to pass that after Amaleki had delivered up these plates into the hands of king Benjamin, he took them and put them with the other plates, which contained records which had been handed down by the kings, from generation to generation until the days of king Benjamin.

King Benjamin simply took the Small Plates and put them with the other plates, or the Large Plates.

If Mormon simply took the Small Plates and put them with his other plates this would have been very easy to say, just like he did here.

All he had to say was I took these plates and put them with my other plates, if that's all he did.

I maintain that he is describing more.

Looking at the references of first hand accounts of the cave or records, this also could mean, the room or storage area of plates (records), which Amaleki already had in his possession. It is an assumption that Amaleki gave Benjamin two set of records. We simply do not all if this is all of which was given. Though, I do see your point if it was only two set of records. The gap of time from Nephi death, the mixing of both Jaredites and Mulekites in the area, what other records by this timeframe, was in this man possession?

Professor Nibley stated the same:

“Amaleki is writing this, you see. "Behold, I, Amaleki, was born in the days of Mosiah [he's looking back on history]; and I have lived to see his death; and Benjamin, his son, reigneth in his stead." And under King Benjamin the two governments fuse, of course. Benjamin defended Zarahemla from Lamanite attacks; he drove them out of the land of Zarahemla. Verse 25: "I began to be old; and, having no seedÂ…" Amaleki has no children, so he hands the records over to King Benjamin. Remember that they had been kept in separate archives-the royal archives of the doings of state and the wars, etc., and the family archive of the revelations and inspirations that's been handed down. (That's the one we're getting.) But here they're joined in one, and from now on King Benjamin keeps all the records in his archive. And Benjamin has a passion for these records. He's a great antiquarian, we'll find out. He's keeping the records after he ceases to be king. Benjamin is the man to have them, so the two governments fuse, and the plates are now in the hands of one king again. And Amaleki says, "I shall deliver up these plates unto him, exhorting all men to come unto God, the Holy One of Israel, and believe in prophesying, and in revelations, and in the ministering of angels, and in the gift of speaking with tongues." Notice "in the gift of speaking with tongues, and in the gift of interpreting of languages." They had these gifts among them, which indicates they had more than one language. They must have had quite a number of languages or dialects, as far as the case may be. Then in verse 26 he testifies to the Atonement. "Yea, come unto him, and offer your souls as an offering to him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end [that's the formula: fasting, praying, and enduring to the end] and as the Lord liveth you will be saved." (Teachings of the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, Nibley, by Hugh Nibley, p.433)

Your statement on the other hand is in agreement with both Robert Millet and Joseph F. McConkie (see Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 2, by Robert L. Millet, Joseph Fielding McConkie, p.123):

10. Put them with the other plates] The "other plates" are the large plates of Nephi, kept by the kings (see Jarom 1:14; Omni 1:11).

[Justice]

Looking at the references of first hand accounts of the cave or records, this also could mean, the room or storage area of plates (records), which Amaleki already had in his possession.

Remember, Nephi gave one set to the man he anointed to be king, and gave Jacob the other one. So, what was passed from Jacob to Amaleki was just the Small Plates.

Jacob 1:

1 For behold, it came to pass that *fifty and five years had passed away from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem; wherefore, Nephi gave me, Jacob, a commandment concerning the small plates, upon which these things are engraven.

2 And he gave me, Jacob, a commandment that I should write upon these plates a few of the things which I considered to be most precious; that I should not touch, save it were lightly, concerning the history of this people which are called the people of Nephi.

3 For he said that the history of his people should be engraven upon his other plates, and that I should preserve these plates and hand them down unto my seed, from generation to generation.

...

9 Now Nephi began to be old, and he saw that he must soon die; wherefore, he anointed a man to be a king and a ruler over his people now, according to the reigns of the kings.

Nephi gave the Large Plates (the ones that would eventually fill a room) to the man he anointed king and they were passed down from king to king until King Benjamin received them from his father Mosiah the 1st. Amaleki never had the Large Plates.

It is an assumption that Amaleki gave Benjamin two set of records.

There is no mention of this in the Book of Mormon. As far as we know, the Small Plates was the only record kept by the prophets from Nephi to Amaleki. Neither does the text suggest Amaleki had more than one record. Mormon, however, had more than 1 record... but only 1 record was HIS.

Though, I do see your point if it was only two set of records. The gap of time from Nephi death, the mixing of both Jaredites and Mulekites in the area, what other records by this timeframe, was in this man possession?

Again, when King Benjamin "combined" the records he could not have been speaking of any other record than the Large Plates:

WoM:

10 Wherefore, it came to pass that after Amaleki had delivered up these plates into the hands of king Benjamin, he took them and put them with the other plates, which contained records which had been handed down by the kings, from generation to generation until the days of king Benjamin.

When Mormon said he "chose" the Small Plates, to put them with the "remainder" of his record, he could only be saying he removed a portion... otherwise there was NO gap in his record. He abridged from Lehi through 4th Nephi from the Large Plates. There was no gap until he removed a portion (from Nephi up to King Benjamin), and put the Small Plates in place of what he removed (since it covered the same time period) forcing him to add Words of Mormon as a filler between Amaleki and King Benjamin.

It really is in black and white to me now. I've suspected it for quite some time, but now I know.

If you have difficulty seeing this, PM me your phone number and we can discuss it. It would be much easier.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Justice