Iran : A 17 Year Old Girl Is Sentenced To Death By Hanging.

[Outshined]

I consider that you pick and choose words from Jefferson to back up your false claim that America is not a Christian nation.

That statement may be the definition of irony... I'm aware of your opinion and disagree with it. Not one quote you've provided by anyone supports the idea that our nation was founded to be more favorable toward Christianity than other beliefs. That's because it wasn't. Inspired by God? Yes. Designed to be Christian? No.

If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

And if you stand for the wrong thing, you're just wrong.

Since you go to great lengths to discredit the prophets and our founding fathers, one would wonder what your objective is.

What was that you said about putting words into other people's mouths? I've never "discredited" anyone; I've simply told the truth on the matter. In keeping with the spirit of LDS Talk I've gone out of my way to be tolerant, even when you resort to such attacks on my character.

Shooting the messenger (who has delivered the message in its entirety), serves no purpose.

Practice what you preach.

For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.3 Nephi 11:29

[Guest Syble]

DID YOU KNOW?

As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court

you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and

each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full

frontal view ... it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!

.DID YOU KNOW?

As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the

Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.

DID YOU KNOW?

As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall, right above where the

Supreme Court judges sit, a display of the Ten Commandments!

DID YOU KNOW?

There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and

Monuments in Washington, D.C.

DID YOU KNOW?

James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our

Constitution" made the following statement: "We have staked the whole of all

our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government,

upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control

ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

DID YOU KNOW?

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our

country said:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation

was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on

the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

DID YOU KNOW?

Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose

salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.

DID YOU KNOW?

Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the

established orthodox churches in the colonies.

DID YOU KNOW?

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and

instead of interpreting the law would begin making law an oligarchy ...

the rule of few over many.

DID YOU KNOW?

The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said:

"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers." How, then,

have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for 220 years in

this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional? .

Please forward this to everyone you can. Lets put it around the world and

let the world see and remember what this great country was built on.

Thank you!!

[Outshined]

DID YOU KNOW?

I got that email too. Thanks for sharing it, though.

[Guest Syble]

<div class='quotemain'>

DID YOU KNOW?

I got that email too. Thanks for sharing it, though.

It makes it clear we were established upon a religious body who were Christian. If there are Christian teachings in every court, (or were) you would think most would be intelligent enough to read the writing on the walls and come to a normal conclusion that we are a Christian Nation. And in fact many WISE men have; the prophets and apostles.

I can't understand someone being so short sighted and self-serving as to deny this obvious fact.

It is apparent some are caught up in making changes by pretending the past never happened and only the future endever to completely rid the country of God is valid.

Sort of like saying our country isn't an English speaking country because we are being force to become biliqual.

[Outshined]

It makes it clear we were established upon a religious body who were Christian. If there are Christian teachings in every court, (or were) you would think most would be intelligent enough to read the writing on the walls and come to a normal conclusion that we are a Christian Nation. And in fact many WISE men have; the prophets and apostles.

Actually it's good example of the "picking and choosing" that Ari was talking about. I can provide many quotes from the same men stating that they wanted religion left out of the Constitution. The founding of our nation was inspired, yes, but they made sure all faiths would be respected equally.

I can't understand someone being so short sighted and self-serving as to deny this obvious fact.

Or to attack those who don't agree with their narrow view...

It is apparent some are caught up in making changes by pretending the past never happened and only the future endever to completely rid the country of God is valid.

Only those who pretend that the US was founded to be Christian are pretending.

Sort of like saying our country isn't an English speaking country because we are being force to become biliqual.

Apples and oranges. Though if you have documents saying we don't respect other languages, I'd be happy to see them...

[Dror]

Aristotle,

I think what the prophets are saying is that the American people need to act in a Christian manner. One of the most fundamental principles of the LDS belief system is free agency. Jesus Himself would never force anyone to worship him, and as His disciples, we ought not do so, either. That is why our form of government is secular--to prevent anyone from being forced into or out of any religion. This does not prevent us from being a "Christian nation" in the sense of serving Christ as individuals. In fact, it protects our God-given right to do so.

I totally agree with President Benson and other prophets who say that if (emphasis on "if") the Constitution will be saved, it should be saved by the elders of Israel. That's why we, as elders of Israel, need to stop the fundamentalist evangelical Christians from gutting the Constitution in order to establish their little theocracy. Think of it in terms of protecting the LDS Church: if the fundamentalist evangelical Christians manage to gain control of our government, turning it into a "Christian" theocracy, what's to stop them from passing laws (or issuing executive orders) that would inhibit our (LDS) freedom of religion, because they think we're not Christian? For example, when we apply for a permit to build a temple, they might deny it (and don't try telling me people wouldn't do that--they actually have tried that sort of stunt!), on the basis that (they think) we are not Christians and worship the Devil in our temples.

Take care,

Dror

[Dror]

Syble, John Jay was quite entitled to his opinion. However, the law is the law, and the Constitution quite clearly states that there is to be no religious test for any public office. Justice Jay may have wanted Christians to rule, but he could not enforce that without violating the law. Reread Article 6 of the Constitution (the 1st Amendment wouldn't hurt, either).

The Ten Commandments are good, but there is nothing especially Christian about them--they were, after all, brought to us by the Jews. Are we now to discriminate against the Jews by claiming this as a Christian nation? The Ten Commandments comprise a moral code--the principles they teach are not specific to any particular religion. Indeed, religion is not necessary at all to form, support, or practice a moral code.

Don't misunderstand me, folks. I'm not anti-religion in any way (I'm an active LDS and RM, and have a testimony of Christ, the Gospel, and the Church). It's because I am so pro-religion that I insist on keeping our government secular, so it won't interfere with anyone's right to worship, or not worship, as they please.

As for being a Christian people, I would like nothing more! However, as the prophet Alma, the Younger, understood, preaching the word of God is more effective (not to mention more moral) than using coercion to convert people (Alma 31:5). The government should not be used to coerce people to be Christians, to interfere with the practice of another religion (or no religion), or to stifle anyone's beliefs, regardless of what they may be. See these verses from Alma 30:

7 Now there was no law against a man’s belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.

8 For thus saith the scripture: Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve.

9 Now if a man desired to serve God, it was his privilege; or rather, if he believed in God it was his privilege to serve him; but if he did not believe in him there was no law to punish him.

10 But if he murdered he was punished unto death; and if he robbed he was also punished; and if he stole he was also punished; and if he committed adultery he was also punished; yea, for all this wickedness they were punished.

11 For there was a law that men should be judged according to their crimes. Nevertheless, there was no law against a man’s belief; therefore, a man was punished only for the crimes which he had done; therefore all men were on equal grounds.

Note that in verse 7 it says that it's strictly against the commands of God that there should be a law which would bring people on to unequal grounds. That means America should be a land where all people, of all religions, should be treated equally under the law, not just Christians.

The government does not exist to promote Christianity or any other religion, or to discourage any religion. The government exists to, well, govern and protect our rights so that we can enjoy liberty and live together in peace.

Finally I ask one more time, which version of Christianity do you expect would rule in America? Ours?

It is my opinion that God inspired the Constitution to be secular in order to protect our religious liberties.

[Outshined]

Nice posts, Dror. I agree completely with that. B)

[Jason]

DID YOU KNOW?

James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our

Constitution" made the following statement: "We have staked the whole of all

our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government,

upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control

ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

DID YOU KNOW?

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our

country said:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation

was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on

the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

DID YOU KNOW?

Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the

established orthodox churches in the colonies.

DID YOU KNOW?

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and

instead of interpreting the law would begin making law an oligarchy ...

the rule of few over many.

DID YOU KNOW?

The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said:

"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers." How, then,

have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for 220 years in

this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional? .

Please forward this to everyone you can. Lets put it around the world and

let the world see and remember what this great country was built on.

Thank you!!

I can play that game:

Did you know that the First President of the United States, called the Father our our Country, George Washington, was NOT a Christian?

Did you know that the author of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson, was NOT a Christian?

Did you know that the Second President of the United States, John Adams, rejected nearly every Orthodox Christian doctrine of the day, including the belief in Hell and the divinity of Jesus?

Did you know that Benjamin Franklin, one of the greatest minds our Nation has ever produced, was NOT a Christian?

Did you know that Freemasons, who do not promote any one religion above another, made up a sizeable percentage of our Founding Fathers?

-At least 16% of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Masons, including Benjamin Franklin and John Hancock.

-At least 33% of the signers of the US Constitution were Masons, including Benjamin Franklin, and George Washington.

-At least 46% of the Generals of the Continental Army were Masons, including George Washington, and Marquis de LaFayette.

[Dror]

Nice posts, Dror. I agree completely with that. B)

Thanks, Outshined. :) Sometimes it seems like such an uphill battle that positive comments are very welcome! For the life of me, I haven't the foggiest idea why people are so willing to risk losing their own religious liberty.

BTW, I love your sig quote by Wilensky. It made me laugh.

[Aristotle]

DID YOU KNOW?

As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court

you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and

each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full

frontal view ... it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!

.DID YOU KNOW?

As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the

Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.

DID YOU KNOW?

As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall, right above where the

Supreme Court judges sit, a display of the Ten Commandments!

DID YOU KNOW?

There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and

Monuments in Washington, D.C.

DID YOU KNOW?

James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our

Constitution" made the following statement: "We have staked the whole of all

our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government,

upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control

ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

DID YOU KNOW?

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our

country said:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation

was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on

the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

DID YOU KNOW?

Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose

salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.

DID YOU KNOW?

Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the

established orthodox churches in the colonies.

DID YOU KNOW?

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and

instead of interpreting the law would begin making law an oligarchy ...

the rule of few over many.

DID YOU KNOW?

The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said:

"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers." How, then,

have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for 220 years in

this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional? .

Please forward this to everyone you can. Lets put it around the world and

let the world see and remember what this great country was built on.

Thank you!!

Excellent post, Syble! Thanks very much. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Tell that to the Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and everyone else that reside here.

It was never meant to be a Christian nation, as the founders knew the danger of allowing religion to govern.

Thank goodness. B)

Christianity corrupted by human quest for power could produce Iran-like conditions (aka The Crusades and the Inquisition). BTW, I don't think that was a Catholic problem. I dare say, a Mormon government--again corrupted by human power-lust--could be just as extreme.

Lord Acton was right. Power corrupts! Christianity is the foundation of this country's ethos, and the dominant cultural force. However, America is not a legal or political theocracy, and Christian would be wise to continue to be salt and light, and remember that Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

[Aristotle]

I totally agree with President Benson and other prophets who say that if (emphasis on "if") the Constitution will be saved, it should be saved by the elders of Israel. That's why we, as elders of Israel, need to stop the fundamentalist evangelical Christians from gutting the Constitution in order to establish their little theocracy. Think of it in terms of protecting the LDS Church: if the fundamentalist evangelical Christians manage to gain control of our government, turning it into a "Christian" theocracy, what's to stop them from passing laws (or issuing executive orders) that would inhibit our (LDS) freedom of religion, because they think we're not Christian? For example, when we apply for a permit to build a temple, they might deny it (and don't try telling me people wouldn't do that--they actually have tried that sort of stunt!), on the basis that (they think) we are not Christians and worship the Devil in our temples.

Take care,

Dror

Thank you for your post, Dror.

[Guest Syble]

<div class='quotemain'>

Tell that to the Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and everyone else that reside here.

It was never meant to be a Christian nation, as the founders knew the danger of allowing religion to govern.

Thank goodness. B)

Christianity corrupted by human quest for power could produce Iran-like conditions (aka The Crusades and the Inquisition). BTW, I don't think that was a Catholic problem. I dare say, a Mormon government--again corrupted by human power-lust--could be just as extreme.

Lord Acton was right. Power corrupts! Christianity is the foundation of this country's ethos, and the dominant cultural force. However, America is not a legal or political theocracy, and Christian would be wise to continue to be salt and light, and remember that Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

But the church will not be corrupted by human power-lust so worry not my dear fellow. Lord Ashton was right as far as he went, but I dare say we would all be wise enough to see beyond the power to the character of the man holding the power and before.

Also, it is when man gains true power that he is not corruptable, rather only those who have an illusion of power who become corrupt.

You see, true power comes from God as a man is proven worthy of the challenge. The illusionary power, on the contrarywise, comes from man to man to man and is very corrupting as society is in constant competition.

There was a theme written on how one only actually obtains authority over others through characteristics of charity and powers the same. It is true only about true power and authority.

[Jason]

But the [LDS] church will not be corrupted by human power-lust so worry not my dear fellow.

Brigham Young was fairly corrupt in his own right. Running a theocracy not unlike the Mullah's of today's Iran, whatever Young said was law. People feared for their lives when opposing him, and Im not just talking about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Plenty of non-lds stories where merchants, traders, or plain old passers by wondered if their throats would be cut come morning.

His staunch anti-American teachings preached from both the pulpit and in private. His willingness to defy US law in favor of his own theocratic ideas, fighting against the US Army in 1857, demanding families to abandon their homestead for new settlements which more often than not failed due to poor planning and bad living conditions.

His failed attempts to practice communism throughout his "State of Deseret," should have earned him early retirement.

Moreover, his family fortune was so intertwined with the church that upon his death his family claimed much of what you now call LDS property. Many of the Young family became disenchanted with the LDS church when John Taylor claimed much of what they believed was their family property for the church.

[prisonchaplain]

But the church will not be corrupted by human power-lust so worry not my dear fellow. Lord Ashton was right as far as he went, but I dare say we would all be wise enough to see beyond the power to the character of the man holding the power and before.

First, to address your claim--While I agree that "the Church"--meaning the bride of Christ, will come through the trials and temptations of this era "without spot or wrinkle," I'd suggest two 'adjustments' to your assessment.

1. The Church is the remnant--those true believers who named the name of Jesus, and who endured to the end. It is not a human organization--not "the faithful and wise servant" of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, and not the one who maintains apostles, priests and prophets. Again, Jesus' kingdom is not of this world. His followers follow him. Some church organizations may be better at facilitating our journey in Christ, but to claim that one human organization is uncorruptable borders on idolatry.

2. The reason the remnant comes through perfect is because they have been "washed in the blood of the Lamb," not because they chose the best Christian denomination--or the most "restored" group.

Now, aren't we supposed to be discussing the interplay of religion and American politics, not the corruptablity or incorruptiblity of church denominations?

Also, it is when man gains true power that he is not corruptable, rather only those who have an illusion of power who become corrupt. You see, true power comes from God as a man is proven worthy of the challenge. The illusionary power, on the contrarywise, comes from man to man to man and is very corrupting as society is in constant competition. There was a theme written on how one only actually obtains authority over others through characteristics of charity and powers the same. It is true only about true power and authority.

I'm trying to figure out what the above has to do with whether or not America is a Christian nation.

[Guest Syble]

<div class='quotemain'>

But the [LDS] church will not be corrupted by human power-lust so worry not my dear fellow.

Brigham Young was fairly corrupt in his own right. Running a theocracy not unlike the Mullah's of today's Iran, whatever Young said was law. People feared for their lives when opposing him, and Im not just talking about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Plenty of non-lds stories where merchants, traders, or plain old passers by wondered if their throats would be cut come morning.

His staunch anti-American teachings preached from both the pulpit and in private. His willingness to defy US law in favor of his own theocratic ideas, fighting against the US Army in 1857, demanding families to abandon their homestead for new settlements which more often than not failed due to poor planning and bad living conditions.

His failed attempts to practice communism throughout his "State of Deseret," should have earned him early retirement.

Moreover, his family fortune was so intertwined with the church that upon his death his family claimed much of what you now call LDS property. Many of the Young family became disenchanted with the LDS church when John Taylor claimed much of what they believed was their family property for the church.

You have only heard the 'corrupt' version of this story from a 'corrupted power of the anti boards'. Sorry I know better and you should too.

<div class='quotemain'>

But the church will not be corrupted by human power-lust so worry not my dear fellow. Lord Ashton was right as far as he went, but I dare say we would all be wise enough to see beyond the power to the character of the man holding the power and before.

First, to address your claim--While I agree that "the Church"--meaning the bride of Christ, will come through the trials and temptations of this era "without spot or wrinkle," I'd suggest two 'adjustments' to your assessment.

1. The Church is the remnant--those true believers who named the name of Jesus, and who endured to the end. It is not a human organization--not "the faithful and wise servant" of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, and not the one who maintains apostles, priests and prophets. Again, Jesus' kingdom is not of this world. His followers follow him. Some church organizations may be better at facilitating our journey in Christ, but to claim that one human organization is uncorruptable borders on idolatry.

2. The reason the remnant comes through perfect is because they have been "washed in the blood of the Lamb," not because they chose the best Christian denomination--or the most "restored" group.

Now, aren't we supposed to be discussing the interplay of religion and American politics, not the corruptablity or incorruptiblity of church denominations?

Also, it is when man gains true power that he is not corruptable, rather only those who have an illusion of power who become corrupt. You see, true power comes from God as a man is proven worthy of the challenge. The illusionary power, on the contrarywise, comes from man to man to man and is very corrupting as society is in constant competition. There was a theme written on how one only actually obtains authority over others through characteristics of charity and powers the same. It is true only about true power and authority.

I'm trying to figure out what the above has to do with whether or not America is a Christian nation.

Try harder, you'll get it.

[Aristotle]

I can play that game:

For The Record...

Of the fifty-five men who wrote and signed the U.S. Constitution of 1787, all but three were orthodox members of one of the established Christian communions: approximately twenty-nine Anglicans, sixteen to eighteen Calvinists, two Methodists, two Lutherans, two Roman Catholics, one lapsed Quaker, and sometime Anglican, and one open Deist--Dr. Franklin who attended every kind of Christian worship, called for public prayer, and contributed to all denominations. (re: Faith of Our Founding Fathers)

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

I can play that game:

For The Record...

Of the fifty-five men who wrote and signed the U.S. Constitution of 1787, all but three were orthodox members of one of the established Christian communions: approximately twenty-nine Anglicans, sixteen to eighteen Calvinists, two Methodists, two Lutherans, two Roman Catholics, one lapsed Quaker, and sometime Anglican, and one open Deist--Dr. Franklin who attended every kind of Christian worship, called for public prayer, and contributed to all denominations. (re: Faith of Our Founding Fathers)

Most of whom would be ashamed of the Fundamentalist Christian-right in their attempts to put Christianity as the State Church.

Shame on you and all like you.

[Guest Syble]

Most of whom would be ashamed of the Fundamentalist Christian-right in their attempts to put Christianity as the State Church.

Shame on you and all like you.

--------------------

Absolutely falsehood alert!!!

[Aristotle]

Shame on you and all like you.

Of the Seven Deadly Sins, anger is possibly the most fun. To lick your wounds, to smack your lips over grievances long past, to roll over your tongue the prospect of bitter confrontations still to come, to savor to the last toothsome morsel both the pain you are given and the pain you are giving back--in many ways it is a feast fit for a king. The chief drawback is that what you are wolfing down is yourself. The skeleton at the feast is you. Frederick Buechner, Wishful Thinking, 1973

[Guest Syble]

Isa. 9: 20

20 And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:

[Outshined]

Most of whom would be ashamed of the Fundamentalist Christian-right in their attempts to put Christianity as the State Church.

Yes, I believe they would

[Outshined]

Thanks, Outshined. :) Sometimes it seems like such an uphill battle that positive comments are very welcome! For the life of me, I haven't the foggiest idea why people are so willing to risk losing their own religious liberty.

BTW, I love your sig quote by Wilensky. It made me laugh.

Yes, we need more positive comments to offset the constant argument, don't we?

Glad you like the quote; I'm sure he had message boards in mind when he said it.

[shanstress70]

Hi Ari,

What's up with all of your deleted messages in this and other threads? It's really annoying when someone is trying to read the threads... it's makes everything confusing. If you change your mind about something in the end, it's OK to just state that you've changed your mind. No need to go take out everything up to that point.