Question about Satan/Devil

[antoine1830]

Hi, so I have a quick question about an origin of an lds belief that seems very popular but no one can truly give me a good scriptural origin, ideally from both the Bible and the works of the triple combination which display a congruency of ideology. My question is: Can satan give people good feelings through his deceitful ways to coax someone to do what he wants?

I apologize if a thread addressing this already exists, I'm new here obviously and so I have not thoroughly explored the site yet.

Thank you, and I once again am sorry for my stupidity in this post.

[rameumptom]

Satan can provide pleasure. He uses counterfeits on everything in God's plan. God offers joy, Satan offers pleasure. One is eternal and helps us to deal with trials. The other is short term and has us temporarily escape trials.

So, Satan convinces many into drugs, alcohol, and self-medication in order to feel pleasure, and escape pain for a short period of time. Of course, his plan ensures addiction, so he entraps the person into a form of slavery to him. They cannot find true joy in this instance.

3 Nephi 27 tells us that there are 3 powers in the world: God's, man's, and Satan's. The power of God brings eternal joy. Those things of man and Satan will give happiness/pleasure for a season, but then comes the end, and with it comes weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth. If you've ever watched an addict try to overcome his addiction, you'll see that this is exactly the struggle they experience. Withdrawals include shakes, sweating, pain, and can on occasion be deadly.

[MCHants]

Thank you, and I once again am sorry for my stupidity in this post.

It's not stupid to ask something you don't know, it's stupid not to ask

Yes is the answer. He is the deceiver after all. Nothing is too cunning, sly, underhand and bringing pleasure and joy are his ways if the path they are experienced on is one that leads you away from Heavenly Father. It may be confusing because it looks like he's doing 'good' but the intent is certainly not good.

For those that he leads astray like this, and I bet we've all been there in one way or another, the wonderful thing is that the realisation we have and repentance we enact destroys all his efforts in a stroke and restores us to the love of our Saviour.

Satan really is a loser all told, stick to the winning team

Mark.

Edited July 31, 2010 by MCHants
spolling errers

[Snow]

Hi, so I have a quick question about an origin of an lds belief that seems very popular but no one can truly give me a good scriptural origin, ideally from both the Bible and the works of the triple combination which display a congruency of ideology. My question is: Can satan give people good feelings through his deceitful ways to coax someone to do what he wants?

I apologize if a thread addressing this already exists, I'm new here obviously and so I have not thoroughly explored the site yet.

Thank you, and I once again am sorry for my stupidity in this post.

Can a powerful, invisible demon take control of your nervous system and magically cause it and and you to react in ways that you don't choose?

Hundreds of years ago, before the Enlightenment, people wondered how gravity worked - specifically, why did objects fall. It was theorized that invisible angels held everything up and if they let go, the object would fall.

Most of us no longer live in a world that explains phenomena in terms of magical invisible creatures. Things fall because of gravity.

[JohnnyRudick]

Can a powerful, invisible demon take control of your nervous system and magically cause it and and you to react in ways that you don't choose?

Hundreds of years ago, before the Enlightenment, people wondered how gravity worked - specifically, why did objects fall. It was theorized that invisible angels held everything up and if they let go, the object would fall.

Most of us no longer live in a world that explains phenomena in terms of magical invisible creatures. Things fall because of gravity.

I am not sure that was his question:confused:

[Snow]

I am not sure that was his question:confused:

What part is confusing to you?

"My question is: Can satan give people good feelings through his deceitful ways to coax someone to do what he wants?"

[JohnnyRudick]

What part is confusing to you?

". . .through his deceitful ways to coax someone to do what he wants?"

Is this not what he tried to do to Jesus at the beginning of His earthly ministry?

Matt. Chapter 4

Mark 1:13

Luke Chapter 4

And I guess you laugh at reported instances like John 13:37 and

Acts 5:3.

1 Nephi 13:29 And after these plain and precious things were

taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles;

and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles,

yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the

Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest--

because of the many plain and precious things which have been

taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of

the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the

Lamb of God--because of these things which are taken away out of

the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble,

yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

1 Nephi 22:15 For behold, saith the prophet, the time cometh

speedily that Satan shall have no more power over the hearts of

the children of men; for the day soon cometh that all the proud

and they who do wickedly shall be as stubble; and the day cometh

that they must be burned.

[Snow]

Johnny,

While I read the scriptures daily and seek to gain understanding from them, I don't interpret my current reality in a literal point of view informed by a literalistic and fundamentalist interpretation of ancient anonymous authors who chose to describe the world in terms of invisible magical demons.

[antoine1830]

So it seems like MCHants, an lds member (?) says that the Devil can give someone good feelings while Johnny says that the Devil can't...? I like the references from the Book of Mormon that you gave, Johnny, thank you very much.

Snow: It's not a matter of allowing my life to be ruled by invisible demons, I'm just exploring the many aspects of a deep logical argument of Feelings and the Holy Ghost validating for people that religion x is the truth, not just mormonism, but many religions even outside Christianity assert this, and the LDS defense that I've heard the most is that the Devil cannot give someone good feelings as the Holy Ghost does, and that therefore the lds church is not built on personal revelations and callings which originate from the Devil. All I'm searching for are doctrinal and scriptural references to ground this argument.

[JohnnyRudick]

Johnny,

While I read the scriptures daily and seek to gain understanding from them, I don't interpret my current reality in a literal point of view informed by a literalistic and fundamentalist interpretation of ancient anonymous authors who chose to describe the world in terms of invisible magical demons.

Then why even try "to gain understanding from them"?

[Snow]

Snow: It's not a matter of allowing my life to be ruled by invisible demons, I'm just exploring the many aspects of a deep logical argument of Feelings and the Holy Ghost validating for people that religion x is the truth, not just mormonism, but many religions even outside Christianity assert this, and the LDS defense that I've heard the most is that the Devil cannot give someone good feelings as the Holy Ghost does, and that therefore the lds church is not built on personal revelations and callings which originate from the Devil. All I'm searching for are doctrinal and scriptural references to ground this argument.

Could you explain the "deep logical arguments" for beliefs in magical invisible demons?

[Snow]

Then why even try "to gain understanding from them"?

You are suggesting that that the only possible way to understand something is to interpret it literally.

Have you ever read Homer or Dante? Is there anything to be learned from them, or from any work of art or philosophy even though they are not literally true?

[Matthew0059]

antoine-

Structurally, the best example (IMO) that I think of is the famous quote "wickedness never was happiness" (Alma 41). Essentially, Satan offers counterfeits for every good thing GOD gives us.

Also, Moroni 7:16-17 explains further:

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

I think the problem lies in defining and discerning what a "good" feeling is versus a "bad" feeling- in other words, how do we tell if a feeling comes from GOD or Satan? Moroni explains that anything that persuades us to believe that "inviteth to do good" and to "believe in Christ" is from GOD. The devil's counterfeits take our focus off of CHRIST and doing good for others and transfers it to ourselves- that is, I feel good because of this carnal feeling that doesn't enlighten the mind.

[antoine1830]

I think the problem lies in defining and discerning what a "good" feeling is versus a "bad" feeling- in other words, how do we tell if a feeling comes from GOD or Satan? Moroni explains that anything that persuades us to believe that "inviteth to do good" and to "believe in Christ" is from GOD. The devil's counterfeits take our focus off of CHRIST and doing good for others and transfers it to ourselves- that is, I feel good because of this carnal feeling that doesn't enlighten the mind.

Thank you! This makes sense. Could this then make sense of saying that someone joining LDS because of the socio-religious structure and not to find a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ is being led by the Devil?

Could you explain the "deep logical arguments" for beliefs in magical invisible demons?

I don't care whether invisible demons exist or not. The point is that many LDS I've confronted have argued that the Holy Ghost and the Devil can both give people justification for any belief, and I'm just trying to logically determine according to their standards, not just mine, whether LDS has been justified by the Devil's workings as they define it. In all of your posts, you have not really addressed my main problem and have been rather condescending with arguments that don't belong here. I don't care whether you think demons or the devil exist or not. It's not helping me.

[Snow]

I don't care whether invisible demons exist or not. The point is that many LDS I've confronted have argued that the Holy Ghost and the Devil can both give people justification for any belief, and I'm just trying to logically determine according to their standards, not just mine, whether LDS has been justified by the Devil's workings as they define it. In all of your posts, you have not really addressed my main problem and have been rather condescending with arguments that don't belong here. I don't care whether you think demons or the devil exist or not. It's not helping me.

My apologies. I thought that when you said "deep logical arguments" you were actually referring to deep logical arguments.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Snow

[crazypotato]

Thank you! This makes sense. Could this then make sense of saying that someone joining LDS because of the socio-religious structure and not to find a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ is being led by the Devil?

How do you know why people join any church? Some people join churches for social reasons, and it could be any religion.

But look at Christian churches in general. What are those churches teaching their congregations? Are they teaching them to follow Christ, or are they flattering them into thinking that Christ loves them so much that they don't have to follow him, just believe, or are they organizing their members to help each other, to have charity towards the poor and needy?

I do believe in the Devil. I think he tricks people all the time, but I don't think he can counterfeit the feelings of the Holy Ghost and the light that people feel inside their hearts and minds when they feel the Holy Ghost. Satan seems to deceive through using logic, in my opinion, that sounds right, but is not quite so. If he is deceiving through feelings, it is often through the feeling of pleasure, not just through substance abuse but also from lots of bad behaviors that give us pleasure.

I believe the Holy Ghost can be felt by people that are in or out of many different religions. I do believe that the LDS church is the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, but I also believe that other churches teach lots of the truth and invite people to do good as well, and those members can feel the Holy Ghost too.

[Cassiopeia]

To the OP:

This is where knowing yourself is the most important thing. Can Satan deceive us into having good feelings and doing something that isn't right for us?

Only if we allow it. I look at it this way. I know the standards by which I want to live my life. If I am feeling persuaded to go against those standards I've set, then clearly I will have to be accountable and strong enough to turn away from that form of persuasion.

I think there's a bit of folklore involved here. In the early years of my church membership I was told if I really wanted to be certain that my answers didn't come from Satan, I must pray in silence. Then someone said that Satan knows us as well as God does and can still deceive us.

But the real danger if people will be accountable is from ourselves. When we ourselves act contrary to our own standards and beliefs we can lead ourselves to do something that isn't right. We can feel good about something that is bad because we convince ourselves it will be alright.

I try to not give Satan a whole lot of credit for anything. I prefer to be responsible for the choices I make. I do believe that we feel and see the influence of evil around us and it is quite obvious. Then there's the subtle influences we might choose to ignore.

I think that the measuring stick here, is to be true to your beliefs, be true to yourself and the standards you've adapted and keep your eye single to your purpose and just keep swimming.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Cassiopeia

[antoine1830]

How do you know why people join any church? Some people join churches for social reasons, and it could be any religion.

...I think he tricks people all the time, but I don't think he can counterfeit the feelings of the Holy Ghost and the light that people feel inside their hearts and minds when they feel the Holy Ghost. ...

What if someone had never felt anything to qualify these feelings relative to? Suppose that someone had never felt the Devil persuading them strongly, as he might when one might join religion x or religion y, and had not felt the Holy Ghost either, and so that person just assumed because it was the most convincing feeling and the most happy or light feeling they've ever had that it was the Holy Ghost. What of a scenario like that?

...In the early years of my church membership I was told if I really wanted to be certain that my answers didn't come from Satan, I must pray in silence...

...We can feel good about something that is bad because we convince ourselves it will be alright...

(I am more of addressing the first segment of what I quoted here, the second part was just something I strongly agree with :) )

I'm curious, why were you told to pray in silence? I'm just curious is all because I've never heard that before.

[Snow]

For those of you who believe that the devil can tempt you or deceive you or manipulate your brain cells to cause you to think certain thought... just how does he do it? How does it happen?

[crazypotato]

For those of you who believe that the devil can tempt you or deceive you or manipulate your brain cells to cause you to think certain thought... just how does he do it? How does it happen?

Not sure how this could be proven or explained, since I can't prove that the Holy Ghost has spoken to me, but he can verify the truth of what I say to others. Since I can explain how I feel when the Holy Ghost is talking to me, maybe I could logically explain how Satan could talk to me, but still, consider the audience.

If someone wants scientific proof that the Holy Ghost was in my heart, I cannot prove it. Same with Satan. I believe the scriptures offer proof that there is a devil and that he deceives and speaks to people, but I cannot use those as proof to someone you does not believe in the scriptures. I could tell stories where the Holy Ghost has blessed my life or where Satan has messed me up, but if I throw the seeds of my stories on rocky or weedy soil, then the seeds of my story will not be heard and will therefore be worthless. If I throw those seeds during church or a place where the Holy Ghost can verify what I am saying, to people with humble hearts who are actually seeking the truth, then maybe the seeds of my story will be comprehensible to the listener.

So I choose not to elaborate.

[crazypotato]

What if someone had never felt anything to qualify these feelings relative to? Suppose that someone had never felt the Devil persuading them strongly, as he might when one might join religion x or religion y, and had not felt the Holy Ghost either, and so that person just assumed because it was the most convincing feeling and the most happy or light feeling they've ever had that it was the Holy Ghost. What of a scenario like that?

(I am more of addressing the first segment of what I quoted here, the second part was just something I strongly agree with :) )

I'm curious, why were you told to pray in silence? I'm just curious is all because I've never heard that before.

Those are good questions. I think it takes people practice and life experience, coupled with a humble heart, faith in God, and a desire to know the truth, to realize who is influencing you. However, say this person joins the "wrong" church because they have been deceived with good feelings that were false. I believe that down the road, if that person is living the best way they can, God will show them the truth. Also, they can look at the church and see if it is influencing them to serve God and love their fellowman, or if it is not really helping them with their life other than to have some friends to socialize with. Maybe a church looks great on the outside, and then once they join, and a few years into it, they realize that they are still searching for more.

[antoine1830]

For those of you who believe that the devil can tempt you or deceive you or manipulate your brain cells to cause you to think certain thought... just how does he do it? How does it happen?

I don't care whether it's true or not, but many lds people I know do, so I'm just arguing with them on the assumption that the Holy Ghost and the Devil can. So you're not helping at all, and I don't care. Go troll somewhere else, because you're wasting space in here by not staying on the original question I posed. I don't care if it's not valid to argue it in your opinion because you personally believe the Devil and Holy Ghost can't give people feelings. I DONT CARE. YOU ARE NOT HELPING.

[Snow]

I don't care whether it's true or not, but many lds people I know do, so I'm just arguing with them on the assumption that the Holy Ghost and the Devil can. So you're not helping at all, and I don't care. Go troll somewhere else, because you're wasting space in here by not staying on the original question I posed. I don't care if it's not valid to argue it in your opinion because you personally believe the Devil and Holy Ghost can't give people feelings. I DONT CARE. YOU ARE NOT HELPING.

Seems like you forgot the original question:

" Can satan give people good feelings through his deceitful ways to coax someone to do what he wants? "

... so when I ask how the actual deception occurs, you whine that the I am a troll and off topic. You sound like the troll here or at the least petulant. You may want to discuss the topic instead of crying about the participants.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Snow

[ozzy]

Snow: I think the issue is that antoine's question is 'can it happen' and you answer with the presently impossible question of 'how would it happen.' When that question immediately follows the at least implied claim that devils don't really even exist, it sounds more like you are trying to disprove the existence of Satan rather than answering the question of what he can do assuming he exists. While I would love to argue over whether or not he exists, I can't because there is no way to physically prove it. I do understand what I believe to be your point having at least partially studied how the brain works. But I would never venture to say that nothing our bodies chemistry does is affected by "invisible" God, demons or other.

Antoine - I am not presently aware of any scripture outside those already stated to answer your question. I would conclude logically that as Satan is the great deceiver, he is capable of twisting any number of things with regard to how we think and feel in order to coax us down forbidden paths. An example might be self justification. Sometimes our sins grant us pleasure. I think that sexual sins follow that role rather well. When we are aware that doing such things is wrong, we try to justify our sin and sometimes even succeed in making ourselves feel good about it. I think that Satan definitely plays a role in those feelings so that it stops the process of repentance. I hope that answers your question.

[Cassiopeia]

The thing for me is this:

How much does Satan really have to meddle with? I think we do a great deal of deceiving ourselves without his help.