Have You Ever Given This Any Thought?

[Winnie G]

Have you ever given this any thought?

If you have a testimony, that Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ that spring morning and he know he had seen and heard what he saw he know he could never deny it because he know God know.

So are we as members who have that testimony though faiths then we are just a responsible to that fact. You know that God knows so you could never deny it.

Just Sunday thought.

[Aristotle]

If we deny knowing God, He may one day deny knowing us!

[Palerider]

let me mention this.....the next time you Partake of the Sacrament.....think about why you are partaking it....what does it mean.....forget about the outside world and ....THINK!!!!!

[Josie]

Winnie,

We are held responsible for what we know. Faith is not knowledge, faith is belief in something that we have not seen, but believe to be true. Our responsiblity in the first vision is different that of Joseph Smith. He did not have faith that God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ were real and two seperate beings, he saw them with his own eyes, he knew it to be a fact. He was there and saw them. We have faith by believing upon his words. We both have responsiblity, but it is at the level of faith and knowledge that we have. We are responsible, but not at the same level as Joseph Smith. We are responsible to the degree that the Holy Ghost has revealed the truth to us.

[Winnie G]

but not at the same level as Joseph Smith

I disagree because I received knowledge of that truth for myself.

I always believed because the Holy Ghost guided me to church were I learned and accepted the truth.

Then years later wile visiting Palmyra (no not in the grove)

The Holy Ghost bore the truth to me so strongly I was held fast to the floor I was standing on.

I was overcome as if I was the only person in that room. I know at that point, what was being taught was the truth.

It sounds odd I know but it bore the truth to me like nothing I have ever felt before.

I know that it was true not like a whisperings of the spirit but to my very being.

I believe that if I was called to deny it I could not for fear of loosing my sole just as Joseph felt.

[Serg]

Yes winnie g. you may disagree with the satatement of Josie, but that doesnt make it any less true. You and me and all will be judged according to the knowledge we have and how we acted on it. We have not SEEN (at least i) my Father or my Lord with my eyes. But sure i have seen it with my faith. I not only believe but know. But that does not mean that it is to be taken (my faith) as heavy as a phisycal encounter with God.

So JS ultimately could not deny Him, just as we cant (even if we have not seen him, but believe) is the same witness of the Spirit. But ultimatelly, we(just to get it) have seen our God like the Brother of Jared at first, with our spiritual and faith action eyes, while JS saw Him not only with those bit also through the veil, hence phisycal encounter.

Both are DEADLY to deny, but not AS deadly to deny.

The promise and capacity of SEEING HIM phisycally is for all, but in His time, be it in life , or after , but we all shall have to see Him...all...

So Josie is sort of right, and you too sister. Just need to mix your points of view, and there you have it, the best of two worlds...

LOL

Regards,

[Palerider]

let me share this......a few years ago myself and 3 other male members from this area decided to take a red eye drive to Palmyra for the Pageant. We drove all night to get there...checked into the hotel and went about visiting the sites and later that night the pageant. The next morning we woke up very early and drove to the Scared Grove. It was around 6:30am and we walked into the grove. To my surprise one of the guys with us had brought along a copy of the hymn...Oh How Lovely Was The Morning...and I know its not titled that anymore....well we all started to sing and sure enough due to the bad singing the Birds and other wildlife left the area...LOL....anyway as we were all singing we all had tears in our eyes cause I can assure you the Spirit bore testimony to us that morning...there was a vision there by a young man many many years ago.

Yes....trust me it is TRUE....it did happen!!!!!.....I will never forget that moment...the spirit was very strong.

[Winnie G]

Because of that trip to Palmyra, my testimony has forever changed.

I can not tell someone about that day with out my eyes filling with tears.

I was standing in the loft of the rebuilt homestead were the story of the angel Moroni is told.

The room became so quit to me it was like I was alone rooted to the spot.

Every inch of my body had goose bumps and I was cold. My husband and the tour went back down stairs and some time had passed when my husband came looking for me. He came up the stairs with the sister who was tour guide. My husband said I was just standing there and did not react to him calling my name. The sister told him “It happens a lot”.

I did snap out of it and turned around and I was weeping.

It may happen a lot but not to me, I will never be the same.

[lisajo]

let me share this......a few years ago myself and 3 other male members from this area decided to take a red eye drive to Palmyra for the Pageant. We drove all night to get there...checked into the hotel and went about visiting the sites and later that night the pageant. The next morning we woke up very early and drove to the Scared Grove. It was around 6:30am and we walked into the grove. To my surprise one of the guys with us had brought along a copy of the hymn...Oh How Lovely Was The Morning...and I know its not titled that anymore....well we all started to sing and sure enough due to the bad singing the Birds and other wildlife left the area...LOL....anyway as we were all singing we all had tears in our eyes cause I can assure you the Spirit bore testimony to us that morning...there was a vision there by a young man many many years ago.

Yes....trust me it is TRUE....it did happen!!!!!.....I will never forget that moment...the spirit was very strong.

That is totally awesome! I would love to go there someday!

[LionHeart]

Here is a pretty good example about the difference between faith and knowledge:

We will take the city of New York for intance. I have never been there, but I've been told it's there. I've read about it and seen it on television, but I have never been there. Until I actually go there, and see it with my own eyes, only then does my faith become actual knowledge, and I no longer need to have faith of it's existence because I have an actual knowledge. But until that time, even though I say I know it's there, I only have great degree of faith that it is actually there.

The same is true with our faith in God. Until we actually see Him face to face, we must depend on our faith that He exists, how ever great a degree of faith that may be. And when we choose to obey His commandments, and strive to be like Him, then we have little experiences here and there that build on that faith and for many of us, it gives us determination to strive harder, and the more we perfect ourselves, the stronger and more powerful these faith building experiences will be; until at last, we become worthy to stand in His presence; at which point, our faith is fulfilled and we no longer need it as we now have pure knowledge. In the past, when people have attained to this point, in many cases they were also shown the mysteries of the universe and also the things that are to come to pass concerning this world.