Trees in the Garden

[mikbone]

That is wonderful speculation.

The point of this line of discussion, at least from my end, was to say that it is within God's power to make Adam and Eve's bodies in the garden of Eden without having to transplant anything from another world or an old world, by just using the materials that are here on this planet. I have never asked you to speculate how it is done. I have only suggested you consider the fact that it can be done. If you think it can then I don't see any reason to say that it could not be done for Adam and Eve's immortal bodies in the Garden of Eden.

You say that resurrection is vastly different than the Adam and Eve's creation, of course I agree with that but I would say that the creation of an immortal body (Adam and Eve's body in the garden of Eden) is more like the creation of our resurrected body than it could be compared to the birth of a corrupted fallen body. I think comparing the creation of an immortal body to that of this dying mortal body would be more vastly different than comparing to another immortal body's creation.

The reason to make this statement is because it seems that there is much effort to figure out how God could start physical life from just raw elements without having to bring it from somewhere else. I don't think that is necessary. Spirits to put into the physical life yes .... maybe. But physical life does not have to be "born" from parents, similar to the first Mycobacterium Laboratorium cell created in a lab which did not come from parents of it's kind. It was not "birthed" so therefore does not fall into the whole discussion of one species begets another, it was not begotten, it was created. Creation takes away the need for being begotten.

The question that you are dancing around but not answering straight away is; Is the resurrected body of the man who died 3000 years ago and all of the molecules that once existed as part of his mortal body scattered and reused by other living organisms, made or birthed? I think you are hinting that you think it is made ... regardless of how, energy etc., the point is that it can be done and without parentage.

Concerning the first part of this post, I will refer you back to post #52.

I have tried to be direct in my responses to your queries...

A birth requires parents, the union of genetic material, and a pregnancy. I wholeheartedly believe that Adam was born and not created.

Resurrection is a process unlike birth as described in the foregoing sentence.

For completeness sake, the following is an excerpt of another post that I made some time ago.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Man His Origin and Destiny, p. 354

True it is that the body of man enters upon its career as a tiny germ or embryo, which becomes an infant, quickened at a certain stage by the spirit whose tabernacle it is, and the child, after being born, develops into a man. There is nothing in this, however, to indicate that the original man, the first of our race, began life as anything less than a man, or less than the human germ or embryo that becomes a man.

Gen. 2: 24

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh

So Adam was born. He was not molded of clay. I believe that he was born like everyone else, and that he had parents.

Moses 6:59

That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven of water and of the Spirit and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory.

In this verse God is clearly speaking to Adam. And tells him that he was born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit. IF he was born with blood he was born a mortal not an immortal.

So based on the previous statement and scripture I am going to argue that Adam was born as a mortal just like everyone else. How was this achieved?

Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 50

Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with him. Then he commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as he had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the coarse material that was organized and composed this earth, until his system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of his children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth.

Waiting for Worlds End, Diary of Wilford Woodruff, April 9, 1852 – quoting Brigham Young, p. 150

When our Father came into the Garden He came with his celestial body & brought one of his wifes with him & eat of the fruit of the garden until He could begat a tabernacle.

I believe that the coarse material that God partook of within the Garden of Eden was the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. If God were to partake of the Tree of KoG&E he and his wife would become mortals.

Why was this necessary? Because Celestial beings only create Spirits.

Doctrines of Salvation, volume 2, p. 68

Spirit Children in the Resurrection. Those who attain to the exaltation in the celestial kingdom shall have the power of eternal increase of posterity, and they shall be "above all, because all things are subject unto them." Children born to parents who have obtained, through their faithfulness, the fullness of these blessings, shall be spirit children not clothed upon with tabernacles of flesh and bones. These children will be like we were before we came into this world.

Franklin D. Richards, Scriptural Items, July 16, 1843 - quoting Joseph Smith

The earthly is the image of the Heavenly shows that is by the multiplication of Lives that the eternal worlds are created and occupied that which is born of the flesh is flesh that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

Wilford Woodruff Journal, Funeral sermon delivered at Nauvoo, Ill. west side of the temple on Sunday March 20, 1842 – quoting Joseph Smith Underlining added by Mikbone

Resurrection - We Come Forth as we Lay Down - No Blood - Children with a Child's Body

As concerning the resurrection I will merely say that all men will come from the grave as they lie down, whether old or young their will not be added unto their stature one cubit neither taken from it. All being raised by the power of God having the spirit of God in their bodies & not blood Children will be enthroned in the presence of God & the Lamb with bodies of the same stature that were on earth, Having been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb they will there enjoy a fullness of that light Glory & intelligence which is received in the celestial kingdom of God "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord, for they rest from their labors & their works do follow them

So when God came down to Earth and created Man, He had to do so by becoming mortal himself. I believe that I have documented this pretty well. I suppose that the Tree of Life was in the Garden so that God and his Wife could then reverse themselves and Adam and Eve back into immortal beings. And because Adam and Eve were not begotten in sin they were innocent and did not know the difference between good and evil. I imagine that this must have been a nice vacation time for God and His Wife (and well deserved I must say).

Edited October 15, 2010 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

Concerning the first part of this post, I will refer you back to post #52.

I have tried to be direct in my responses to your queries...

A birth requires parents, the union of genetic material, and a pregnancy. I wholeheartedly believe that Adam was born and not created.

Resurrection is a process unlike birth as described in the foregoing sentence.

For completeness sake, the following is an excerpt of another post that I made some time ago.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Man His Origin and Destiny, p. 354

True it is that the body of man enters upon its career as a tiny germ or embryo, which becomes an infant, quickened at a certain stage by the spirit whose tabernacle it is, and the child, after being born, develops into a man. There is nothing in this, however, to indicate that the original man, the first of our race, began life as anything less than a man, or less than the human germ or embryo that becomes a man.

Gen. 2: 24

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh

So Adam was born. He was not molded of clay. I believe that he was born like everyone else, and that he had parents.

Moses 6:59

That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven of water and of the Spirit and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory.

In this verse God is clearly speaking to Adam. And tells him that he was born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit. IF he was born with blood he was born a mortal not an immortal.

So based on the previous statement and scripture I am going to argue that Adam was born as a mortal just like everyone else. How was this achieved?

Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 50

Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with him. Then he commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as he had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the coarse material that was organized and composed this earth, until his system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of his children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth.

Waiting for Worlds End, Diary of Wilford Woodruff, April 9, 1852 – quoting Brigham Young, p. 150

When our Father came into the Garden He came with his celestial body & brought one of his wifes with him & eat of the fruit of the garden until He could begat a tabernacle.

I believe that the coarse material that God partook of within the Garden of Eden was the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. If God were to partake of the Tree of KoG&E he and his wife would become mortals.

Why was this necessary? Because Celestial beings only create Spirits.

Doctrines of Salvation, volume 2, p. 68

Spirit Children in the Resurrection. Those who attain to the exaltation in the celestial kingdom shall have the power of eternal increase of posterity, and they shall be "above all, because all things are subject unto them." Children born to parents who have obtained, through their faithfulness, the fullness of these blessings, shall be spirit children not clothed upon with tabernacles of flesh and bones. These children will be like we were before we came into this world.

Franklin D. Richards, Scriptural Items, July 16, 1843 - quoting Joseph Smith

The earthly is the image of the Heavenly shows that is by the multiplication of Lives that the eternal worlds are created and occupied that which is born of the flesh is flesh that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

Wilford Woodruff Journal, Funeral sermon delivered at Nauvoo, Ill. west side of the temple on Sunday March 20, 1842 – quoting Joseph Smith Underlining added by Mikbone

Resurrection - We Come Forth as we Lay Down - No Blood - Children with a Child's Body

As concerning the resurrection I will merely say that all men will come from the grave as they lie down, whether old or young their will not be added unto their stature one cubit neither taken from it. All being raised by the power of God having the spirit of God in their bodies & not blood Children will be enthroned in the presence of God & the Lamb with bodies of the same stature that were on earth, Having been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb they will there enjoy a fullness of that light Glory & intelligence which is received in the celestial kingdom of God "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord, for they rest from their labors & their works do follow them

So when God came down to Earth and created Man, He had to do so by becoming mortal himself. I believe that I have documented this pretty well. I suppose that the Tree of Life was in the Garden so that God and his Wife could then reverse themselves and Adam and Eve back into immortal beings. And because Adam and Eve were not begotten in sin they were innocent and did not know the difference between good and evil. I imagine that this must have been a nice vacation time for God and His Wife (and well deserved I must say).

Thanks for your response. I will try to get through as much as I can right now, but may have to come back to some of these quotes you gave.

I agree with the first part but that is why I am having a hard time understanding why you don't see that there is a difference between mortal birth and Adam and Eve's start or an "immortal birth" if you want to call it that. There has been no argument that there is a difference between mortal birth and resurrection. The question is more related to how this all began with Adam and Eve as that was not a mortal birth. We have limited knowledge as to the creation of immortal bodies, but most of it comes from our knowledge of resurrection. So, I think it is best to compare Adam and Eve's body creation to resurrection over comparing Adam and Eve's body creation to a mortal birth. I know you tend to see it that way so it is easier to compare those two in your mind but I think that is because you have a preconceived idea that Adam and Eve's bodies were birthed.

I'll have to come back to some of these quotes, not enough time. ... as for the Joseph F. Smith post; that is a comment about evolution which is not what we are discussing. He is simply stating that Adam and Eve's body did not come from another life form. I am not arguing that either. In fact, one proposal that I gave would be in perfect alignment with his statement because I am saying there is a possibility that God made Adam and Eve's body out of raw elements and therefore it would not have come from any other lesser animal. There is nothing there against what I am saying. That would be an argument against Adam and Eve's body coming from a neanderthal relative etc.

Genesis 2:24 is Moses speaking to his people and speaking to us. That because God so that it was important for Man to not be alone, we must also realize that God intended woman and man to be together as one right from the beginning. I think you are over interpreting that verse to say that Adam had a mother of his physical body. ... in my opinion.

.... I'll have to continue this later, not enough time. Thanks again for the discussion.