Islam Superior To Western Christianity.

[Fiannan]

We have mentioned previously that the contemporary world now consists of three camps: Judeoamerica (with Britain), the Muslim world, and the indifferent rest of the world which does not want to go to war over the Middle East. Culturally, Judeoamerica in fact includes most of Western Europe (and increasing numbers of Eastern Europeans). The culture of Judeoamerica since the 1960s has been shaped by hedonism and by the belief that wisdom (or its modern equivalent: “satisfaction”) derives solely from experience and from physical stimuli such as wealth, power, sex, the violation of traditional taboos, altered states of mind, etc.

The true faith of the West since the 1960s is hedonism, which teaches that the ultimate goal of human life is to undergo every possible pleasurable experience, with an emphasis on physical stimuli. Hedonism throughout much of history was the privilege of the powerful and wealthy, but in America, it was democratized in the 1960s, especially with “sex, drugs and rock’n’roll” and fifteen minutes of fame, and pandered to the masses addicted today.

The fallacy of hedonism is that the hedonist believes he can, indeed, experience every possible human experience. Yet such hedonism, in fact, precludes the feeling of denial of pleasure and the experience of asceticism. For if one is overwhelmed by physical pleasure, one cannot appreciate any pleasure from a denial of physical pleasure. Varieties of asceticism characterize some varieties of Islam, just as even longer they have been a significant tradition of Apostolic Christianity and other religions. This involves the experience of asceticism as an ideal of personal sacrifice, not personal fulfillment or indulgence. Asceticism relates somehow to the issues of martyrdom, such an important aspect of early Christianity and contemporary Islam, and military service. Those societies willing to defend their own cultural and spiritual values do not object to military service for their youth, even with the possibility of death.

Thus, the Muslim world and the West today are distinguished by their values. The Muslim world possesses something, namely faith and tradition, which its youth is willing to die for (in war, suicide bombings, etc.). No one in the West wants to die for hedonism. No one in the West, in fact, wants to die for anything. Thus, a dynamic of future history is revealed. Those willing to die for their values surely will triumph over those who have none worth dying for.

Stojgniev O’Donnell

February 2006

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/75914-1/

I read a remark by Richard M. Nixon in which he analyzed the standoff between the two remaining world ideologies -- Islam and western consumerism. His comments were that consumerism (as reflected in modern values that the writer for Pravda seems to hit upon quite well) offers nothing substantial, nothing that enriches the soul. It is not something anyone ultimately will feel satisfied with. Islam offers answers to life's questions, identity, enriches the soul and connects the person to the ultimate purposes of life.

Nixon felt that Islam therefore would continue to gain power in every respect. I know it's easy to believe otherwise but to trust in our weapons of war and economy is like the Romans drunken with hedonism laughing at the Huns and Germanic tribes and finding comfort in their riches and armies. And what happened to the Romans? We also have the examples of the ancient Hebrews as well as the Nephites. As LDS we have the advantage of seeing ourselves as not part of the world -- it is our duty to ourselves and our children to vere even farther away from the world's approval and influences.

[LionHeart]

Yes, I see where you are coming from. The LDS religion also provides a purpose in life. But if they seek harmony with the world, that purpose in life will eventually be gone. I remember hearing somewhere, I think it was on a news program, that the Islamic faith is now the fastest growing religion in the world. The LDS faith is the fastest growing Christian religion. Also, Mormons are now becoming the minority in Utah.

[Jason]

Are you kidding? I've been listening for decades now about how our failing Christian values would be then end of us. The author has no data to support such a poor theory, so why bother believing it?

Hedonism is hardly the culprit for the downfall of either Rome, or any other Western Nation-State. That's like saying that homosexuality is the cause of our National Debt.

Let's get real here people.

And the argument for Asceticism is baloney. Since when did suffering beyond that which comes naturally in life become a cause for celebration?

[BenRaines]

I read the above article with disbelief. Sounds like a muslim, even with a name like Stojgniev O’Donnell, who wants us to believe he is right.

I have read of personal experiences by Americans visiting the Middle East where they all think we live like the old tv show Dallas or all the women are like Daisy Duke in Dukes of Hazzard. Yes there is an element of that in our society but there is a much larger group of people that struggle to make it every day. Some are farmers others mom and pop store owners. They may not live in dirt houses but work just as hard.

I don't think that being willing to blow myself up so that I can be met by 70+ virgens when I get to heaven qualifies as a rational decision. I don't think anymore dedicated. I know many men, myself for one, that if it came down to it to preserve our freedoms we would die for it.

Ben

[Fiannan]

Ben, spoken like a true red state type of guy. However, I think the author is not talking about conservative Americans (those who are religious and actually live the principles), Russians or Poles. I think his focus is on more liberal Americans or post-Christian, soon-to-become-extinct western Europeans.

I think that if a focus group could be obtained from the late 1950s, one not polluted by "modern" culture and left to explore our cultural landscape today they would side with the views of the author from Pravda. If you were to take out the comparrison between western peoples and Muslims and just talk about western culture I think it would pass as a speech at a BYU fireside.

[Jason]

Ben, spoken like a true red state type of guy. However, I think the author is not talking about conservative Americans (those who are religious and actually live the principles), Russians or Poles. I think his focus is on more liberal Americans or post-Christian, soon-to-become-extinct western Europeans.

I think that if a focus group could be obtained from the late 1950s, one not polluted by "modern" culture and left to explore our cultural landscape today they would side with the views of the author from Pravda. If you were to take out the comparrison between western peoples and Muslims and just talk about western culture I think it would pass as a speech at a BYU fireside.

Of course, opinions on this matter are meaningless.

[Snow]

?

Hedonism is hardly the culprit for the downfall of either Rome, or any other Western Nation-State.Let's get real here people.

Actually the classic theory of why Rome fell (The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire - Gibbons) is that Christianity is as big a cause as any for the fall.

[Fiannan]

And that would be because of what????

[Snow]

And that would be because of what????

It goes something like this:

'There were many reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire. Each one intertwined with the next. Many even blame the introduction of Christianity for the decline. Christianity made many Roman citizens into pacifists, making it more difficult to defend against the barbarian attackers. Also money used to build churches could have been used to maintain the empire. Although some argue that Christianity may have provided some morals and values for a declining civilization and therefore may have actually prolonged the imperial era.'

[Dror]

Ben, spoken like a true red state type of guy. However, I think the author is not talking about conservative Americans (those who are religious and actually live the principles), Russians or Poles. I think his focus is on more liberal Americans or post-Christian, soon-to-become-extinct western Europeans.

I think that if a focus group could be obtained from the late 1950s, one not polluted by "modern" culture and left to explore our cultural landscape today they would side with the views of the author from Pravda. If you were to take out the comparrison between western peoples and Muslims and just talk about western culture I think it would pass as a speech at a BYU fireside.

Excuse me? Are you implying that "more liberal Americans" are either irreligious or don't live according to their religious principles?

What will cause this untimely demise of the "post-Christian" Western Europeans?

Who says the 1950s were not "polluted" by modern culture?

I don't understand how one can claim that there are only two remaining major ideologies in the world, Western consumerism and Islam. What do you suppose an average Chinese person might say to that? Or Indian, Thai, Filipino, Indonesian, etc., etc., etc.? The world is a much bigger place than the U.S. and the Muslim nations alone.

For that matter, who says all Westerners buy into (so to speak!) the consumerist attitude?

I have nothing against Islam--if it offers meaning to its adherents, that's great--I just question the assumption that it is better than all other religions, including (or especially) Christianity. Why are people always putting down Christianity, anyway?

Even without religion, the West has some admirable values, such as liberty, equality (and fraternity, for you Francophiles!), intellectual and artistic achievement, democracy, human rights, and environmentalism. We have a rich heritage, folks--why put it down?

It is true that many in the West (and elsewhere) have descended into hedonism and consumerism, and it's quite disgusting. However, blowing up crowded theaters in the name of Allah is not exactly admirable, either. The vast majority of Muslims wouldn't do something so deplorable, of course, and there are many Christians who are also honestly trying to live their religion.

[Fiannan]

I don't understand how one can claim that there are only two remaining major ideologies in the world, Western consumerism and Islam. What do you suppose an average Chinese person might say to that? Or Indian, Thai, Filipino, Indonesian, etc., etc., etc.? The world is a much bigger place than the U.S. and the Muslim nations alone.

Well let's see, I'm going to China (Yangshou area of southern China) next week. I can tell you that China is more capitalistic than California. And consumerism IS growing there. India? Where do you tech-employed people think your jobs are being outsourced to? The Thais and Filipinos are having some major problems with Muslim seperatists and Indonesia is devoutly Muslim.

Perhaps one could focus more on the western civilizations (taken quite liberally that includes the competing religion/philosophy of Islam) and then one can say that it is a battle for the soul of the Middle East and Europe -- ultimately the US as well.

Western values of freedom are great, but with freedom comes responsibility and without a religious foundation and an ethic that sacrifice for others and morality Europe and the US cannot (since having children for instance requires sacrifice of the self) maintain itself -- and if Muslims are highly fertile then that alone will mean Islam will triumph.

[Jason]

Fiannan,

Are you Ari's husband?

[Fiannan]

"Truth" is a commodity that is in short supply on the Continent. "What is truth?', European skeptics ask, echoing the query famously attributed to Pontius Pilate. Answering their own question, the literati maintain that truth is limited to that which can be objectified, quantified and verified. Matters that fall outside the pale of empirical verification, (i.e., matters of religion, morality or ethics), cannot masquerade as "truth." At best, they are matters of "opinion," with any one viewpoint being deemed as good (or bad) as another. As a result, relativism and radical subjectivism reign in European capitals, creating a veritable values vacuum.

It is into that vacuum that Islamic absolutism now seeks to move. Relativism, however, is no match for absolutism. Just as relativism cannot assert that any one moral or religious viewpoint is correct, neither can it assert that it is wrong or false. Relativism almost always gives rise to passivity. Zeal rarely accompanies a point of view that remains uncertain as to what is right or wrong. Inevitably, the passive relativist must yield to an absolutist who is willing to advance his viewpoint through force. This is no doubt why the late theologian, Francis Schaffer, once wrote, "When truth retreats, tyranny moves to fill the vacuum".

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=12532

No Jason, I have not even met Ari. Check out the full article at Human Events and let me know what you think.

[Seraphim Moonshadow]

I don't understand how one can claim that there are only two remaining major ideologies in the world, Western consumerism and Islam. What do you suppose an average Chinese person might say to that? Or Indian, Thai, Filipino, Indonesian, etc., etc., etc.? The world is a much bigger place than the U.S. and the Muslim nations alone.

Well let's see, I'm going to China (Yangshou area of southern China) next week. I can tell you that China is more capitalistic than California. And consumerism IS growing there.

Perhaps one could focus more on the western civilizations (taken quite liberally that includes the competing religion/philosophy of Islam) and then one can say that it is a battle for the soul of the Middle East and Europe -- ultimately the US as well.

Western values of freedom are great, but with freedom comes responsibility and without a religious foundation and an ethic that sacrifice for others and morality Europe and the US cannot (since having children for instance requires sacrifice of the self) maintain itself -- and if Muslims are highly fertile then that alone will mean Islam will triumph.

Yangshou is the best! It's very Western down there with English Street and all. There are many Chinese people seeking to find God and I would love to help them. But the point is, their government really just won't let it happen. I'm sad to see them adopt Western ways and yet forget about other things as well, such as freedom of religion.

People will do anything they can to make themselves look better, especially when it comes to religion. People will do all they can to knock us down and say they're better, yet it seems to me that's just going against what they preach.

I agree with what Ben said.

[Fiannan]

I would agree with Ben too except that I think he is missing the main point of Mr. O'Donnel. The author is not saying Islam is better, just that the way they live the principles of their religion is better than Christians (as a whole) are living theirs -- especially in places like Europe. I would draw your attention to another article (not in Pravda but in the conservative publication Human Events):

"Truth" is a commodity that is in short supply on the Continent. "What is truth?', European skeptics ask, echoing the query famously attributed to Pontius Pilate. Answering their own question, the literati maintain that truth is limited to that which can be objectified, quantified and verified. Matters that fall outside the pale of empirical verification, (i.e., matters of religion, morality or ethics), cannot masquerade as "truth." At best, they are matters of "opinion," with any one viewpoint being deemed as good (or bad) as another. As a result, relativism and radical subjectivism reign in European capitals, creating a veritable values vacuum.

It is into that vacuum that Islamic absolutism now seeks to move. Relativism, however, is no match for absolutism. Just as relativism cannot assert that any one moral or religious viewpoint is correct, neither can it assert that it is wrong or false. Relativism almost always gives rise to passivity. Zeal rarely accompanies a point of view that remains uncertain as to what is right or wrong. Inevitably, the passive relativist must yield to an absolutist who is willing to advance his viewpoint through force. This is no doubt why the late theologian, Francis Schaffer, once wrote, "When truth retreats, tyranny moves to fill the vacuum".

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=12532

And another source saying just about the same thing:

The design flaw of the secular social-democratic state is that it requires a religious-society birthrate to sustain it. Post-Christian hyperrationalism is, in the objective sense, a lot less rational than Catholicism or Mormonism. Indeed, in its reliance on immigration to ensure its future, the European Union has adopted a 21st-century variation on the strategy of the Shakers, who were forbidden from reproducing and thus could increase their numbers only by conversion. The problem is that secondary-impulse societies mistake their weaknesses for strengths--or, at any rate, virtues--and that's why they're proving so feeble at dealing with a primal force like Islam.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760

[BenRaines]

Since I have never been to Europe I have no experience on how Europeans live their religion, Christian or otherwise. What tires me is religious intolerance on all sides. Most muslims are not terrorists just like most Christians are not out destroying civilizations, not that they were doing it for the church in the first place, it was for the gold and land etc. Not for the church.

If we were all a little more tolerant. I recall during my active time knocking on doors and preaching the gospel if someone said they had a church or were not interested we encouraged them to attend the church of their choice and we moved on.

[Fiannan]

Yangshou is the best! It's very Western down there with English Street and all.

Saraphin Moonshadow, not to get off topic but what did you find the best there? I've been to Beijing and some rural areas in the north but this is the first time I have been to southern China. Any tips would be greatly appreciated. :)