Is Mormonism Polytheistic?

[Fourth_Horseman]

I got to thinking one day and came up with this nice little thought. Mormons don't believe in the Trinity. They say Jesus Christ, God, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit are all seperate entities. Therefore they beleive in atleast 2 if not three (depending on whether you count the Holy Ghost) Gods. Polytheisim is the belief in many (two or more) gods. Therefore if you reject the Trinity and are christian you are Polythiestic.

Now here is the part that puts me off. God told Moses "To put no God before me" and this is a commandment. Mormons believe the Commandments to be a divine mandate form heaven. Yet how can they claim to obey the commandments and call themselves CHRISTians. They end their prayers "In the name of JESUS CHRIST amen." They claim JESUS CHRIST is the SON OF GOD and the SAVIOR of man kind. That sounds like putting another god before god, albiet he is the son of god.

Now you undoubtedly will be scrambling for the "reply" button and be picking apart my argument. You claim that "We put Jesus' name in everything but we still beleive God is more important." Well let me tell you, thats like having your main beliefs in small print, because I never got that memo at church. You may also claim JESUS is technically not a 'God' through some sort of scriptural interpretation nonsense. But in the end mormon doctrine:It's all about JESUS and God simply taking a sideline to everything. Think about it.

Someone please explain this to me.

[ozzy]

First, 'scrambling' isn't quite the word I would use to describe my response.

Second, I am not sure it will do any good to explain anything because you obviously have deep set preconceived notions which in my experience make it impossible to explain anything. But I will try anyway.

Third, I apologize if my tone is less than soothing or sugary or whatever. I am just trying to adopt the attitude displayed by your opening statement. I also don't think it is productive to act in a way contrary to what I think.

Your argument surrounding how we pray proves by itself that you haven't thought much about this. I would point out that we begin our prayers addressing the Father which shows that we pray to Him, not to Christ. We pray through Christ as a mediator between ourselves and the Father. As such, it is flawed to state that we place Christ above the Father.

You also seem to have missed the part where we believe that God sent His son to atone for us. We have appreciation for both for their respective sacrifices. In any case, we didn't put Christ anywhere. He did it himself. You can't blame us for acknowledging this in our teachings.

Yes we put Christs name in everything. We do everything in his name. This is because he is a mediator. Every ounce of actual worship that we do is directed at the Father.

Your final statement makes no sense at all. Either you haven't taken the time of day to study what we actually believe, or you are just trying to be argumentative. There is no sidelining of either Christ or the Father. Everything we do is centered on worshiping God and following the example of His son in doing so. We put both of their names into pretty much everything. There is no small print.

Until you have decided to understand the basics of our doctrines, teachings, and practices, I have no inclination to try settle your polytheism/trinity concern. Besides, is the trinity any less confusing? You have an immortal being become a man and die (contrary to being immortal) just to become immortal again. And through this he is also supposed to exist as both a physical being and a being of no substance, sometimes appearing in multiple forms and other times talking/praying to himself.

[marshac]

Are you looking for an explanation? it sounds like your mind is already made up. I'll just mention a few things that i'm sure you've already heard-

The trinity isn't found in the Bible- it's a construct that came later

We end our prayers in the name of Jesus Christ because that's how he instructed us to pray (3 Nephi 18:19–21).

There's more to say, but it's late :)

[Fourth_Horseman]

Yes we put Christs name in everything. We do everything in his name. This is because he is a mediator. Every ounce of actual worship that we do is directed at the Father.

You have an immortal being become a man and die (contrary to being immortal) just to become immortal again.

Why would you do this if God is the creator of eveything? Mormon Ideology to me seems to be slapping together Jewish Ideology (old Testement) and Christian/Catholic Ideology (New Testment) thowing in the Book or Mormon and tryin to patch it all together. You say that mormons exalt christ in all things but every once of "actual worship" goes toward the Father. That is exactly what I was pointing out.

Mormons put Christs name in eveything. Why call yourelf CHIRSTians. Why put JUSUS' name at the end of prayer. Why have "Church of JESUS CHIRST" in your name. Why would you do this if you praising god? It makes no sense to have everything be about Jesus and then just as you did say "We are actually praising the father."

Its like me talking about the vice president doing everything the president does but then when people ask me what I'm talking about saying "Oh I was actually talking about the president." Unless of course you beleive in the Trinity...oh wait.

You also fail to disscus my point about the trinity. You simply disregard it as being completely untrue because an ALL POWERFUL being could not possibly "be immortal, die and become immortal again" But all the same fallacies can be said about a non-trinity based arguemnt. Why did God have to kill his son to save man if he is all powerful, whats the point? Why did Jesus, who by his vary nature would already be a god, have to die to become Immortal? Who is Jesus' Mother (SHe is never discussed anywhere in any scripture)? Unless of course God simply spawned Jesus like he did the universe, but since god "Created Man in his own image" it would be suggested he created procreation in the same manner of which he procreated, once agains bringing the question of "who is the Holy Mother?" such a question is nullified in a Trinity Agrument as God is Jesus and therefore did not need create himself.

Your tone suggests you believe God and Jesus seperate entities and you also by claiming Jesus as the "Son of God" to be a god himself. Therefore you beileive in Two Gods and are therefore Polythiestic. THat was the orignal question, and your arguement made no notion of disproving it. If anything it proved it more.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Fourth_Horseman

[prisonchaplain]

I might recommend to you a book co-authored by a Denver Seminary (evangelical) professor and one from Brigham Young University (LDS): How Wide the Divide: A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation. The two scholars discuss this issue with respect, yet clear differences. Prof. Robinson (the Mormon) argues that LDS theology is monotheistic, so he will offer the response you seek. In fairness, though, it seems that the majority of those LDS who get into these discussion would accept the label henotheistic--the belief that there may exist more than one God, but only one should be worshiped. They would all agree that the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are one, though that oneness is obviously much looser than we trinitarians teach.

The OP author may also want to examine some of the many previous strings on this subject. Just do a search of threads using the word "trinity." There are many. Well...16 to be exact. Here's the link: LDS Mormon Forums - Search Results

Edited October 10, 2010 by prisonchaplain
add link

[Fourth_Horseman]

Are you looking for an explanation? it sounds like your mind is already made up. I'll just mention a few things that i'm sure you've already heard-

The trinity isn't found in the Bible- it's a construct that came later

We end our prayers in the name of Jesus Christ because that's how he instructed us to pray (3 Nephi 18:19–21).

There's more to say, but it's late :)

I simply put forth my agrument and evidence and wanted to see what others thought of it. Ozzy (First Post) was exactly what I wanted to see. A structured response that took what I said and examined it, then had a counter argument.

I like to see what others think and their logic for such. But Logic can be a two way street leading to some very hard fought arguments where both sides logic can be correct.

[marshac]

.....my pager went off telling me that there was a thread on LDS.net getting lots of posts at 12:30AM on a Sunday.... can't I get some sleep?

[Dravin]

Therefore if you reject the Trinity and are christian you are Polythiestic.

I'm sure that is a surprise to the Jehovah's Witnesses.

They claim JESUS CHRIST is the SON OF GOD and the SAVIOR of man kind.

I take it then you are unaware of the aspect of LDS Theology where God the Father introduced his Son and tells us to hear him? So your argument essential boils down to, "How dare you agree with and follow what God told you to do! That's not worship!" As pointed out the pattern of prayer has been established by the very person God the Father told us to listen to.

Now you undoubtedly will be scrambling for the "reply" button and be picking apart my argument.

Not really. More like bemusedly pondering just how much longer until you crack. Experience demonstrates folks who post such as you in the tone you do usually don't last long before they violate site rules, sometimes in the most spectacular of ways. You didn't come to learn or have things explained to you, you came to showcase your incredulity. It doesn't bode well.

[Fourth_Horseman]

I might recommend to you a book co-authored by a Denver Seminary (evangelical) professor and one from Brigham Young University (LDS): How Wide the Divide: A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation. The two scholars discuss this issue with respect, yet clear differences. Prof. Robinson (the Mormon) argues that LDS theology is monotheistic, so he will offer the response you seek. In fairness, though, it seems that the majority of those LDS who get into these discussion would accept the label henotheistic--the belief that there may exist more than one God, but only one should be worshiped. They would all agree that the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are one, though that oneness is obviously much looser than we trinitarians teach.

The OP author may also want to examine some of the many previous strings on this subject. Just do a search of threads using the word "trinity." There are many.

A most excellent point. My thought on the Henotheistic debate would be is which God do they really worship? As has been mentioned many times in this thread Mormons say they worship God the Father. But they adopt Christ into so many aspects of their worship it is almost to then point that no matter what you say you do, you actions imply you worship two gods in equal, or near equal measure. This would not be a henotheistic model with their being many gods and only one being worshiped but a a Polytheistic model.

This topic can be disscused very deeply and I'm interested to see what people have to say on the matter.

[prisonchaplain]

It is acceptable to also resurrect dormant strings--so, if you have time, you might find some answers in those 16 threads that you want elaboration on. Just a thought. The list I linked only lists those that had at least 5 responses.

[Dravin]

Fourth, the tone in your latest post is a whole lot better. This does bode well.

[prisonchaplain]

Fourth, the tone in your latest post is a whole lot better. This does bode well.

I have serious respect for those that quickly pick up on the fact that, given a sober approach, there is much insight to be gained here.

[Fourth_Horseman]

I'm sure that is a surprise to the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I take it then you are unaware of the aspect of LDS Theology where God the Father introduced his Son and tells us to hear him? So your argument essential boils down to, "How dare you agree with and follow what God told you to do! That's not worship!" As pointed out the pattern of prayer has been established by the very person God the Father told us to listen to.

Not really. More like bemusedly pondering just how much longer until you crack. Experience demonstrates folks who post such as you in the tone you do usually don't last long before they violate site rules, sometimes in the most spectacular of ways. You didn't come to learn or have things explained to you, you came to showcase your incredulity. It doesn't bode well.

Such Negativity. I'm suprised, always thought Mormons were the nice folk. Besides, I knew I would get ganged up on in this arguement. The chances of someone who agrees with me joining this argument is very low. It's going to be 20 Mormons ganging up on me. 20 Minds can come up with a lot more to throw at me than my 1 mind can come up to throw at all 20 of their arguments. Besides is it against site rules to disagree with some aspects of Mormon doctrine? In that case why even bother letting people select a religion at registration.

As for not coming to learn, you are very wrong. I may have presented my argument as one of which I'd answered myself but I was simply showing my thought process. It was more a Thiesis rather than a question.

Beside it make no sense that god would tell us to "worship no other god before me" and then say "Oh, I forgot to mention that its A-ok to refer to my son for inquiries, I changed my mind from the time I talked to Moses. Oh yeah I also forgot to mention to Moses I had a son, yah, well I do now. k bye"

[Dravin]

I have serious respect for those that quickly pick up on the fact that, given a sober approach, there is much insight to be gained here.

It is amazing how much tone matters.

[Fourth_Horseman]

It is amazing how much tone matters.

indeed. I probably did sound a bit pretenious in my first post...Oh well, You have to sound like you know what your saying, but it also offends people alot easier.

[Fourth_Horseman]

Well I'm off for the night. I'm sure there will be a hefty number of posts for me to go through tomorrow.

[Dravin]

Beside it make no sense that god would tell us to "worship no other god before me" and then say "Oh, I forgot to mention that its A-ok to refer to my son for inquiries, I changed my mind from the time I talked to Moses.

In LDS Theology Jehovah is Christ. This means it isn't like Moses was directly dealing with the Father all this time and God just changed his mind. Since the fall Christ has been the mediator. We go through Christ for inquiries because we cannot in our fallen state approach the Father directly. Also before you ask, we believe that at times while Christ spoke he spoke with divine investiture of authority. Saying what the Father would have said had he been there speaking to us. Similar to the angel in Revelation saying, "I am the alpha and omega."

Oh yeah I also forgot to mention to Moses I had a son, yah, well I do now. k bye"

Except he didn't. You have some obvious gaps in your knowledge of LDS theology that unless you fix you aren't going to get anywhere. It's like discussing evolution with someone who believes its central tenant is that man evolved from chimpanzees. Yes, you can eventually instruct him on the details but it would be a whole lot easier if he recognized he didn't know all the ins and outs from the get go.

Edit: For the record it doesn't particularly bother me if you want to chalk us up as polytheistic. Its just quite a few of your comments are showing significant knowledge gaps concerning out beliefs. More knowledge may or may not change your conclusion, but if you are gonna reach a conclusion at least have a better understanding of the foundation you are building that conclusion on. I'm mentioning this so you don't come back with a so, "So what? It doesn't change my conclusion." My intent isn't to convince you we are monotheistic, but if you are going to argue using our own paradigm, make sure you understand the premises involved.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Dravin

[Fourth_Horseman]

In LDS Theology Jehovah is Christ. This means it isn't like Moses was directly dealing with the Father all this time and God just changed his mind. Since the fall Christ has been the mediator. We go through Christ for inquiries because we cannot in our fallen state approach the Father directly. Also before you ask, we believe that at times while Christ spoke he spoke with divine investiture of authority. Saying what the Father would have said had he been there speaking to us. Similar to the angel in Revelation saying, "I am the alpha and omega."

Except he didn't. You have some obvious gaps in your knowledge of LDS theology that unless you fix you aren't going to get anywhere. It's like discussing evolution with someone who believes its central tenant is that man evolved from chimpanzees. Yes, you can eventually instruct him on the details but it would be a whole lot easier if he recognized he didn't know all the ins and outs from the get go.

Edit: For the record it doesn't particularly bother me if you want to chalk us up as polytheistic. Its just quite a few of your comments are showing significant knowledge gaps concerning out beliefs. More knowledge may or may not change your conclusion, but if you are gonna reach a conclusion at least have a better understanding of the foundation you are building that conclusion on. I'm mentioning this so you don't come back with a so, "So what? It doesn't change my conclusion." My intent isn't to convince you we are monotheistic, but if you are going to argue using our own paradigm, make sure you understand the premises involved.

I see what you are saying. And I admit my knowledge is not perfect, far from. I may even be misquoting. I has been a very long time since I was involved in this stuff.

But this is the passage I was alluding to with the whole Moses thing and have based most of my argument off of. Last time I checked Mormons accept the King James Bible, old and New testement as scripture and therefor true.

King Jame Bible

Exodus 20:1-4

1/And God spake all these words saying,

2/I am the Lord thy god which have brought thee out of the land of Eygpt, out of the house of bondage

3/Thou shalt not have ANY other GODS before ME

4/Thou shalt not make unto thee ANY graven IMAGE (Angel Morani?) or ANY LIKENESS of ANY THING that is IN HEAVEN (Angel Morani???) above, or that is in the water under the earth.

No where does God imply he has a son, will ever send a son or plans to send a son. Also wern't you saying "Man cannot directly communicate with god because he Is "fallen?" How did Moses and evey other prophet before him communicate with heaven? You said and I directly quote:

"it isn't like Moses was directly dealing with the Father all this time and God just changed his mind. Since the fall Christ has been the mediator."

This implies Chirst IS God. This means the Jewish God is Jesus Christ. Have You just told me that Jesus Christ is God and God is Jesus Christ? If Jesus has been the Mediator since the "Fall" would he have not been the one talking to Moses in this passage? Trinity? Please enlighten me further, my knowledge of LDS Theology is, as already stated, very limited.

Why does god punish all men for the sins of Adam and Eve (since you say we are in a "fallen" state)? Why does god need a son? Why did his son come when he did? Man had "fallen" well before the established time of christ, so were all those people doomed to the terestial Kingdom? Why would god do that to those particular people? Why is the Mormon church the only on that can still communicate with Jesus? Why can't Catholics or Evangleicals? Don't they believe in the same scripture and same Jesus?

by the way I only noticed the No Graven Image thing and morani while I was reading this passage. Not a big deal, just breaking a commandment, but I just found that interesting.

[john doe]

Since the OP is banned, I am closing this......