Should the Jews be Held Blameless

[GeneC]

Yes, God will use whatever means that is at His disposal to establish the Theocracy of His Kingdom on Earth.

[bytor2112]

Yes, God will use whatever means that is at His disposal to establish the Theocracy of His Kingdom on Earth.

Of course their will be no theocracy for the Lord's kingdom on earth ...UNTIL the return of Christ and the ushering in ofthe millenium.

[bytor2112]

A couple of threads here have discussed the role of the Jewish people and that of Pilate in the crucifixion of Jesus. Much hatred through history and to this day has been directed toward the Jewish people. Christ had to die on the cross in order to fulfill scripture. So shouldn't the Jews be held blameless?

In the same vain, God promised to make them "a hiss and a byword". Can a persecutor of the Jewish people find justification for their acts in these words?

What is the LDS perspective on histories treatment of the Jewish people and what is their ultimate fate in the eyes of God?

Not justification....but perhaps explanation. Certainly the scriptures record that they couldn't live the higher Gospel law and were only blessed with the Laws of perfromances and Ordinances and that they rejected their Messiah as well.

There ultimate fate will be as everyonje else's...acceptance of the Gospel and obedience to the commandments will qualify them for the same rewards as everyone else. The Book of Mormon is yet another example of God's love and attempt to gather scattered Israel as well as the Gentiles.

[GeneC]

Of course their will be no theocracy for the Lord's kingdom on earth ...UNTIL the return of Christ and the ushering in of the millenium.

Actually, the first component of the Theocractic Kingdom will be accomplished before the return of Christ. Starting with the collapse of the government and with the Council of 50, in Utah no less.

But that's another thread altogether.

[Bensalem]

My thoughts are that God does not guarantee peace even to the righteous of his people. The Latter-day Saints certainly didn't have peace for quite a while. That we do now is more an accident of history than a sign of our supposed righteousness. In many cases throughout history, God's servants have been persecuted, tortured, and killed precisely because they were God's servants.

Another question: Why would God not use the U.N. as an instrument in establishing modern Israel?

HEP

I see only two possibilities in regards to the UN action. One, it is an act of men in contradiction to the Israel built in the church of JC of latter-day saints. Or two, if it is fulfillment at the hands of God it must be linked to Orson Hyde's consecration of the land back in 1841.

The inhabitants of the state of Israel must acknowledge God's hand working through the LDS church or they appear simply as "land pirates".

The first time Israel laid claim to their birthright was at the hands of the prophet Joshua in succession to Moses. It was recorded in the Bible and there in lays the justification. They have no such justification this time around. They are a prophetless nation. God does not work through them to bring about His objectives.

The only other choice is to turn to a nation of prophets in Christ for their justification in reclaiming the land and the promise.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Bensalem

[GeneC]

The Jews will be preached to and many will accept the Gospel of Christ. The Ten Tribes will return starting in Missouri then move on to Israel to fulfill prophesy and complete the second step of Christ's Theocracy in which He will rule His Church from Israel as He will rule His Political government righteously from New Jerusalem.

[Just_A_Guy]

The first time Israel laid claim to their birthright was at the hands of the prophet Joshua in succession to Moses. It was recorded in the Bible and there in lays the justification. They have no such justification this time around. They are a prophetless nation. God does not work through them to bring about His objectives.

I dispute the portion in bold. Just because someone doesn't seek, or know, that they are doing God's will, doesn't mean that they aren't doing it. See, e.g., ancient Assyria and Babylon.

[Bensalem]

I dispute the portion in bold. Just because someone doesn't seek, or know, that they are doing God's will, doesn't mean that they aren't doing it. See, e.g., ancient Assyria and Babylon.

Or even the Jews in the crucifixion of Jesus, which brings us full circle to the topic at hand.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Bensalem

[Bensalem]

The Jews will be preached to and many will accept the Gospel of Christ. The Ten Tribes will return starting in Missouri then move on to Israel to fulfill prophesy and complete the second step of Christ's Theocracy in which He will rule His Church from Israel as He will rule His Political government righteously from New Jerusalem.

Oh, wonderful! This answers my question. Missouri is the launching point, the saints will announce it, and Christ will be in charge, not a UN General Assembly meeting in New York.

It is good to hear there remains only one true Israel and this is the LDS Church.

Thank you very much for this information.

[Dravin]

Oh, wonderful! This answers my question. Missouri is the launching point, the saints will announce it, and Christ will be in charge, not a UN General Assembly meeting in New York.

Who said the UN General Assembly was in charge of the Gathering of Israel?

Edited November 30, 2010 by Dravin

[Blackmarch]

A couple of threads here have discussed the role of the Jewish people and that of Pilate in the crucifixion of Jesus. Much hatred through history and to this day has been directed toward the Jewish people. Christ had to die on the cross in order to fulfill scripture. So shouldn't the Jews be held blameless?

The ones that had the gospel as given to them by the prophets of old cannot be held blameless to what they've been given, especially ones who added to the law without commandment. On a more general level they cannot be held more or less blameless than anyone else who does not have the full gospel.

In the same vain, God promised to make them "a hiss and a byword". Can a persecutor of the Jewish people find justification for their acts in these words?

no. Christ taught ot love thine enemy.

What is the LDS perspective on histories treatment of the Jewish people and what is their ultimate fate in the eyes of God?

the ones that sent Christ to death will pay for the sins of murder and rejection of Christ, even after witnessing and hearing so many witnesses of his miracles.

Getting a prophecy about how your children will be treated does not give others the right to treat them in such a manner.

The Cycles of persecution and hate towards jews stem from others hatred and if there is any fault to be found with the jews today it would be with the sins they commit.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Blackmarch

[volgadon]

Oh, wonderful! This answers my question. Missouri is the launching point, the saints will announce it, and Christ will be in charge, not a UN General Assembly meeting in New York.

It is good to hear there remains only one true Israel and this is the LDS Church.

Thank you very much for this information.

I think you greatly misread him. He said Missouri is the first gathering point for the ten tribes. Christ was in charge when the UN general assembly gathered and voted on granting a sovereign state in Israel for the Jews. This was a necessary step. Do please read Orson Hyde's prayer. The UN declaration was not THE gathering but an event in it.

You are certainly welcome to hold a dismal, anti-Semitic view hardly in keeping with one professing to be a follower of Christ, but bear in mind that God does not abandon any of his people, even when they abandon him. All the more so does he not abandon their children. Isaiah 49:13-16 would be meaningless were this not the case.

[Bensalem]

Who said the UN General Assembly was in charge of the Gathering of Israel?

The UN gave authority for the state Israel to be organized. Many Christians and many Jews have claimed this to be fulfillment of Biblical prophesies regarding the gathering of Israel.

On the other hand, the LDS church claims to be Israel and the gathering point of the lost tribes.

I am trying to demonstrate that the first contradicts the second. The actions of the UN and those people who have followed that call back to the Middle East have settled in the wrong Israel. The restoration of the kingdom of Israel in the LDS church is the true Israel.

[Bensalem]

Christ taught (to) love thine enemy.

...which raises the question, are the Jewish people Christ's enemy?

Does their denial of the Son make them enemies of God the Father?

[Bensalem]

I think you greatly misread him. He said Missouri is the first gathering point for the ten tribes. Christ was in charge when the UN general assembly gathered and voted on granting a sovereign state in Israel for the Jews. This was a necessary step. Do please read Orson Hyde's prayer. The UN declaration was not THE gathering but an event in it.

You are certainly welcome to hold a dismal, anti-Semitic view hardly in keeping with one professing to be a follower of Christ, but bear in mind that God does not abandon any of his people, even when they abandon him. All the more so does he not abandon their children. Isaiah 49:13-16 would be meaningless were this not the case.

Your statements ignore the issue at hand. The UN action created a second Israel separate from the Israel Christ created in the LDS church. The biblical record says God will bring the lost tribes back to the land of Israel. Never has the UN claimed this act was God inspired or revealed.

On the other hand, the LDS has claimed revelation in regards to the formation and gathering of Israel.

My views are far from being anti-Semitic since I support the gathering of Israel in the LDS church. Furthermore, it doesn’t matter to me who claims the land now because according to the promise the land will eventually be in the hands of saints.

[Dravin]

The UN gave authority for the state Israel to be organized. Many Christians and many Jews have claimed this to be fulfillment of Biblical prophesies regarding the gathering of Israel.

This is nowhere near claiming that the UN is in charge of the Gathering of Israel. If that is what your statement is based on you are engaging in a strawman.

The restoration of the kingdom of Israel in the LDS church is the true Israel.

The gathering of the Ten Tribes into the LDS Church is part of the gathering of Israel. The physical gathering of Judah (Levi and sundry hanger ons from the other tribes) is another part of it. The Gospel Principles Manual talks about the Spiritual Gathering which is what you are talking about: Gospel Principles Chapter 42: The Gathering of the House of Israel

The Israelites are to be gathered spiritually first and then physically. They are gathered spiritually as they join The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and make and keep sacred covenants. This spiritual gathering began during the time of the Prophet Joseph Smith and continues today all over the world. Converts to the Church are Israelites either by blood or adoption. They belong to the family of Abraham and Jacob (see Abraham 2:9–11; Galatians 3:26–29).

And the physical gathering:

The physical gathering of Israel means that the covenant people will be “gathered home to the lands of their inheritance, and shall be established in all their lands of promise” (2 Nephi 9:2). The tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh will be gathered in the Americas. The tribe of Judah will return to the city of Jerusalem and the area surrounding it. The ten lost tribes will receive from the tribe of Ephraim their promised blessings (see D&C 133:26–34).

Edited December 3, 2010 by Dravin

[Pahoran99]

A couple of threads here have discussed the role of the Jewish people and that of Pilate in the crucifixion of Jesus. Much hatred through history and to this day has been directed toward the Jewish people. Christ had to die on the cross in order to fulfill scripture. So shouldn't the Jews be held blameless?

In the same vain, God promised to make them "a hiss and a byword". Can a persecutor of the Jewish people find justification for their acts in these words?

What is the LDS perspective on histories treatment of the Jewish people and what is their ultimate fate in the eyes of God?

Hello Ben,

having read through the thread, there appear to be a couple of principles you have trouble understanding.

Firstly, to the OP: people are responsible for the choices they make. Their children do not inherit that responsibility; thus, no living Jew can be blamed for the crucifixion of the Saviour.

Second, and also to the OP: the fact that God uses the evil acts of free beings to accomplish His righteous purposes does not make those acts any less evil, or those who committed them any less free. In simple terms, God forsees what men will do in a given set of circumstances, sets up the circumstances He requires, puts the men in those circumstances, and lets them freely choose as He knows they will.

Thirdly, the notion that words are mathematically simple constructs that each deliver one meaning and only one, is naive at best, and gives rise to painfully muddled thinking. The Saints can modernly be called Israel because they inherit the promises made to ancient Israel. However, so do the Jews. Ultimately, of course, we anticipate that all branches of Jacob's descendants will be reunited in one fold; but the fact that this has not yet been accomplished does not remove the claims that the Jews have upon their inheritance, including but not limited to their land inheritance.

Regards,

Pahoran

[JohnnyRudick]

Okay, I get your point (correct me if I'm wrong). The Jewish people have a claim to being Israel because they are Jewish. They required no UN mandate to stake their claim. My question remains: If the LDS church is Israel by way of an act of God, how does God acknowledge or accommodate this other Israel?

If anyone can demonstrate to me that they are the true Israel then perhaps I would immigrate. It seems one or the other Israel must be walking with their shoes on the wrong feet. There is clearly one Israel built in Christ and one Israel built on the denial of Christ. Isn't it for them to come to the knowledge of Christ and join the LDS church?

I find it curious that those in the Middle East are negotiating a two state solution between Jews and Palestinians, while ignoring the true dichotomy of there being two peoples claiming to be Israel. That would be like the LDS church negotiating a Christian annex to their Temples with the Catholics.

Has God become so compromising as to create confusion about what Israel is to be?

I believe there has to be a earthly Israel gathered for this among other things

to be accomplished when He comes for this . . .

Zechariah 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall

yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall

say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the

name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him

shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

Zechariah 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the

prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath

prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

Zechariah 13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an

husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these

wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I

was wounded in the house of my friends.

[Just_A_Guy]

he UN action created a second Israel separate from the Israel Christ created in the LDS church.

Umm . . . no. The UN action created, to all intents and purposes, a Jewish state which chose to call itself Israel.

If you cannot or will not recognize the difference between Israel and Judah (i.e. Jews), then there's really no point in pursuing this conversation.

[bytor2112]

Okay, I get your point (correct me if I'm wrong). The Jewish people have a claim to being Israel because they are Jewish. They required no UN mandate to stake their claim. My question remains: If the LDS church is Israel by way of an act of God, how does God acknowledge or accommodate this other Israel?

If anyone can demonstrate to me that they are the true Israel then perhaps I would immigrate. It seems one or the other Israel must be walking with their shoes on the wrong feet. There is clearly one Israel built in Christ and one Israel built on the denial of Christ. Isn't it for them to come to the knowledge of Christ and join the LDS church?

I find it curious that those in the Middle East are negotiating a two state solution between Jews and Palestinians, while ignoring the true dichotomy of there being two peoples claiming to be Israel. That would be like the LDS church negotiating a Christian annex to their Temples with the Catholics.

Has God become so compromising as to create confusion about what Israel is to be?

Why the confusion? Israel was scattered and will be gathered both spiritually and temporally in the latter days. That doesn't mean all of that direct blood line will be gathered all to one place before the return of the Savior.

We (gentile) are Israel....partakers of the Abrahamic Covenant through baptism.

[Bensalem]

Umm . . . no. The UN action created, to all intents and purposes, a Jewish state which chose to call itself Israel.

If you cannot or will not recognize the difference between Israel and Judah (i.e. Jews), then there's really no point in pursuing this conversation.

If you wish to rewrite history by calling it a Jewish state instead of calling it Israel, then there's really no point in pursuing this conversation.

[Bensalem]

Why the confusion? Israel was scattered and will be gathered both spiritually and temporally in the latter days. That doesn't mean all of that direct blood line will be gathered all to one place before the return of the Savior.

We (gentile) are Israel....partakers of the Abrahamic Covenant through baptism.

The way I understand it is that the title Israel belongs to those who are baptized into the LDS church. Other baptisms do not make you a part of Israel because the LDS church does not recognize other baptisms. Likewise, Jews are not a part of Israel because they reject the baptism which Christ preached.

I don't deny that the LDS church is the spiritual gathering place of Israel. But I also see it as the temporal gathering place. Christ did not set up a spiritual church only; the LDS church exists temporally as well. He doesn't have one spiritual Israel based in Utah and a temporal Israel stationed in the Middle East.

[Bensalem]

I believe there has to be a earthly Israel gathered for this among other things

to be accomplished when He comes for this . . .

Zechariah 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall

yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall

say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the

name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him

shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

Zechariah 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the

prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath

prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

Zechariah 13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an

husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these

wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I

was wounded in the house of my friends.

The earthly Israel must be the same as the spiritual Israel, which is the LDS church.

[Just_A_Guy]

If you wish to rewrite history by calling it a Jewish state instead of calling it Israel, then there's really no point in pursuing this conversation.

UN Resolution 181 authorized a Jewish state.

[JohnnyRudick]

The earthly Israel must be the same as the spiritual Israel, which is the LDS church.

I get-cha.

Thanks:cool: