Which Is Greater: The Priesthood Or The Church?

[Jason]

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I think you just refuted yourself here Ray. Im arguing that the Priesthood comes from God, therefore God can do as he wants, and the Church has no authority to revoke Priesthood. You just said that God can do anything he wants....so what's the deal?

I think there are some uses of term that give wrong impressions. First I would point out that G-d is just. This is a little different than "he does what ever he wants". It only works because he wills himself to want to be just.

I wasnt trying to be as precise as you are in this definition. I'll do better in the future.

The point is that G-d follows a pattern of justice in how he delegates responsibility in his kingdom.

While I agree that the pattern is more organized in this "dispensation," such does not seem to be the case from the Old Testament accounts. God is much more chaotic and disorganized in my view.

Jason: I get the impression if you were before a judge having your driver's license revoked that you would tell the judge that the state issued you your license and therefore the judge cannot revoke it - and that the state can do what-ever it wants. Perhaps if the state is a totalitarian state it can do what it wants but if it is a just state then it must abide by just laws, principles and logic. If you believe G-d is totalitarian and not just; then you may have a point – but if G-d is just then the principles of delegated authority must be according to just principles.

Let me clarify on this Traveler. If the Priesthood is the "power of God" literally speaking, and the Priesthood is inseperably connected with heaven, then any connection here on earth is secondary and minor in comparison. And since there is no Priesthood higher in authority or power than the Melchizedek, and since a "key" is simply a decision by the Church to allow a Melchizedek priesthood holder to preside, and since the Church cannot vote to remove a Priesthood holder's Priesthood because that is something that can only be done by heaven, therefore it is not possible for a righteous man to lose his priesthood by vote of the Church or by every other Priesthood holder on the planet.

Imagine if you will that Joseph Smith resurrected today. Now imagine if the entire Church during General Conference voted to revoke his Priesthood, do you think it would be vaild? Do you think that Heavenly Father would sustain such an action, in spite of the fact that the Church's current holder of the keys, Gordon B Hinckley, likewise voted to revoke Joseph Smith's Priesthood?

Who's in charge of the Priesthood? The keeper of the keys on earth, or God?

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I think you're taking this way too personally Ray. We're speculating theologically on this, and you seem hell-bent on maintaining Orthodoxy <or focused on sharing the truth on this issue as revealed by God and those who know Him. We all know what the official party-line is <or what God and His authorized servants actually teach>, and if that's all you wish to contribute by trying to explain what they teach and have taught, then I invite you to bow out of this thread at this time.

Fine. If you don’t want to discuss the truth about how God actually works with Man, and instead only want to talk about all your ideas that have no bearing on what the truth actually is, or was, or will be, then go ahead and count me out while you talk about all your ideas.

Ray, don't be so dramatic. This thread isn't about the status quo or what you perceive the truth to be. It's about speculation, plain and simple. It's about theoretical alternatives.

If you wanna start your own thread about the "truth" the go ahead and do it.

[BenRaines]

I am by no means an authority on this so this is only my viewpoint. I have read through this thread and hope this is in keeping with the original idea.

Priesthood is the power of God given to men to do certain things here while on the earth and to bind certain covenants for eternity.

It is still the power of God and not the power of man.

The Prophet, currently President Gordon B. Hinckley, holds all the keys. There are keys that have not been given to man upon the earth and are only held by Christ, keys of Resurrection, as an example.

Only way that Priesthood can or better said should be used is under the direction of the Spirit. If done otherwise as the scripture says "Woe unto the priesthood of that man"

When by virtue of probation, disfellowshipment, excommunication or personal choice to have name removed from the records of the church, person would still hold the priesthood but it would have no value or purpose.

We can deal with hypothetical guesses about what would happen if Joseph Smith were all of a sudden to be back alive and President Hinkley chose to remove him from the church etc. Is it possible? Anything is. Is it probable? No likely.

We can also ask, if there was a huge tidal wave, like in The Day after Tomorrow, and you were at the beach would you run from the seashore or just stand there and take it.

Thank you for reading this far.

Ben

[Jason]

Hey Ben. Thanks for joining the conversation.

I am by no means an authority on this so this is only my viewpoint. I have read through this thread and hope this is in keeping with the original idea.

Priesthood is the power of God given to men to do certain things here while on the earth and to bind certain covenants for eternity.

It is still the power of God and not the power of man.

Thus far no disagreement.

The Prophet, currently President Gordon B. Hinckley, holds all the keys. There are keys that have not been given to man upon the earth and are only held by Christ, keys of Resurrection, as an example.

Interesting. I've not thought of that one. Can you think of any other keys that may be absent from the earth?

Only way that Priesthood can or better said should be used is under the direction of the Spirit. If done otherwise as the scripture says "Woe unto the priesthood of that man"

No problems with this either. Certainly nobody would agree that a priesthood holder (church member or no) could claim validation when doing something immoral (like child sacrifice or some such thing).

When by virtue of probation, disfellowshipment, excommunication or personal choice to have name removed from the records of the church, person would still hold the priesthood but it would have no value or purpose.

Now this is a very interesting sentence, and one that I would like to develop further if you don't mind.

Since I requested to have my name removed from the records of the Church, let's use me as an example. Now let's pretend that there's an LDS woman in a hospital bed who's sick and may be dying. This good woman is far out in the middle of nowhere, and there are no other LDS men anywhere reasonably near by.

Now let's assume that Im a clergyman in that hospital and the nurses inform the LDS woman that Im available to talk with and or offer some kind of blessing.

Now this woman is very kind, and receives me quite well. However, she truly wishes to have a blessing by a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, as she fears that death is imminent. I then inform her that I was ordained a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, and an Elder in the LDS church. She then consents to allow me to bless her, knowing that I no longer hold membership in the LDS church.

I anoint her with my hand-dandy olive oil, and bless her with: "Sister ____, in the name of Jesus Christ and by the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood that I hold....."

Notice carefully that it is not by the authority of the LDS church, but by the Melchizedek Priesthood!

Now, doing this in good faith, for the sake of the woman being blessed, and knowing that my intent is not malicious, but meant to be entirely helpful, will God recognize and accept the blessing?

We can deal with hypothetical guesses about what would happen if Joseph Smith were all of a sudden to be back alive and President Hinkley chose to remove him from the church etc. Is it possible? Anything is. Is it probable? No likely.

We can also ask, if there was a huge tidal wave, like in The Day after Tomorrow, and you were at the beach would you run from the seashore or just stand there and take it.

Thank you for reading this far.

Ben

Ulitmately this is just a hypothetical thread, and I think that Ray forgot about that somewhere along the way. It's pure theory, nothing to do with what has, does, or may happen in LDS church policy.

[BenRaines]

I would believe that the type of blessing that you have mentioned would be a blessing of faith but not necessarily of priesthood power. Some things that would help to determine that are the following:

Priesthood authority is given based upon worthiness and power of said works based upon worthiness also.. I am sure you are very familiar with the 121st section of the Doctrine and Convenants.

Can blessings of health and comfort be given by those without priesthood power? Absolutely. Blessings can be sealed based on priesthood sealing but they are all and should all be based on God's will and what end result he desires.

In the New Testament I do not see a reference to having the priesthood in order to move a mountain only faith, the faith of a mustard seed.

So back to your question I would see it as a blessing based on faith and not on Priesthood power. I will have to do some research in order to discuss further.

Ben

[Jason]

Ben,

I would like to know what reasons you can come up with as to why it would not qualify as a Melchizedek Priesthood blessing.

Course, since the weekend is coming up, I may not hear back from you for a bit, but whenever you can.

Thanks.

[pushka]

Hiya Jason,

I've been reading this thread with interest too.

My personal thoughts are as follows: If one is disfellowshipped/excommunicated from the church or just has a period of inactivity, yet still believes in the LDS doctrines, including the Priesthood Authority etc. then I believe that any blessings that person performs ought to be recognised as a Melchizedek blessing.

However, if one leaves the church willingly or unwillingly, and no longer believes in it, then I don't see how that person could sustain their Melchizedek Priesthood Authority, because they would no longer (I assume) believe that their ordination was valid as they no longer believe in the LDS doctrines pertaining to it.

What do you think?

[Sugarbay]

Hi, Sweetie

Okay my response after pondering and consulting with priesthood holders and reading a few scriptures is, if a priesthood holder is not living up to the covenants he has made and has turned his back on the principles of the gospel he no longer has the priesthood AUTHORITY any more ... just think of it this way...does a person who has not been baptized by the proper authority have the gift of the Holy Ghost? No. They can be prompted by Him but not have the constant companionship of him. Father has said in verse 37 of the 121st section of the the D&C that the "heavens withdraw themselves and the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man." If one isn't entitled to the gift of the Holy Spirit one is not entitled to use the priesthood.

Much love,

Sugar

[Jason]

Hiya Jason,

I've been reading this thread with interest too.

My personal thoughts are as follows: If one is disfellowshipped/excommunicated from the church or just has a period of inactivity, yet still believes in the LDS doctrines, including the Priesthood Authority etc. then I believe that any blessings that person performs ought to be recognised as a Melchizedek blessing.

However, if one leaves the church willingly or unwillingly, and no longer believes in it, then I don't see how that person could sustain their Melchizedek Priesthood Authority, because they would no longer (I assume) believe that their ordination was valid as they no longer believe in the LDS doctrines pertaining to it.

What do you think?

Great thoughts there Pushka. Let me add a third: If one leaves willingly, no longer believes in it, then later adopts the idea that all religions are true and that all paths are correct, and then encounters one who requests a blessing, will God recognize the blessing?

Hi, Sweetie

Okay my response after pondering and consulting with priesthood holders and reading a few scriptures is, if a priesthood holder is not living up to the covenants he has made and has turned his back on the principles of the gospel he no longer has the priesthood AUTHORITY any more ... just think of it this way...does a person who has not been baptized by the proper authority have the gift of the Holy Ghost? No. They can be prompted by Him but not have the constant companionship of him. Father has said in verse 37 of the 121st section of the the D&C that the "heavens withdraw themselves and the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man." If one isn't entitled to the gift of the Holy Spirit one is not entitled to use the priesthood.

Much love,

Sugar

I don't know Sugar. I mean, it took me longer to come up with this idea than it did for you to ask around and "think" about it. Also, I don't know that your holy ghost example actually applies. This person would have been baptised as well as ordained. Whether his name is on the records of the church is not half as relevant as to whether a well intentioned former apostate, more or less current heretic can give a blessing.

[pushka]

Hi again Jason,

'Let me add a third: If one leaves willingly, no longer believes in it, then later adopts the idea that all religions are true and that all paths are correct, and then encounters one who requests a blessing, will God recognize the blessing?'

Obviously it is impossible to answer knowledgeably about this, but I would assume that god would not reject any blessing performed in his name that was for the benefit of the person to whom that blessing was being given, and was not contrary to his scheme of things, if you get what I mean...sorry it's difficult to express my meaning well!! :)

[Sugarbay]

It doesn't take along time to find the truth if it is sitting on my desk in the form of the scriptures, or in the form of a phonecall to priesthood holders. It goes rather fast actually when the truth is right there and handy. If I were looking for ways around the truth it might take a longer time. Time isn't the issue here, the truth is. The truth is that when a man turns his back on his covenants and the truth, he will struggle along gamely. However, he will struggle along without the the Holy Priesthood. One must be worthy to call upon and exersize this power. To make a rather elementary corollary, just because I used to be to be a great shot doesn't mean that I am now if I don't practice and I don't have ammo and I don't have a gun. There are certain things you need to have and do to be a great shot.

You must have the constant companionship of the Holy SPirit to access the powers of heaven. You must honor your covenants and live righteously. The faith required to be healed is not just on the shoulders of the afflicted one, it very much depends upon the true and lasting faith of the bearer of the Melchizedek Priesthood. When we do what we are supposed to do, then Father, as he states, is bound. He has to do what he has promised or he wouldn't be God.

To believe and argue that a man can use the Melchizedek Priesthood and give a blessing when he is not a member of the church and does not honor that priesthood which he held, and does not live the principles of the gospel, is just so much cerebral succotash.

Intentioned. My seminary teacher had a saying: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Of course, she was saying when someone would be late and used the excuse that they INTENDED to be on time. Father certainly is going to listen to heartfelt prayer from anyone willing to have a humble heart, we are his children after all, but the actual POWER of the priesthood, the actual POWER in this universe and beyond that holds us on this planet, even gravity, the POWER that cures someone of MS, the POWER that seals families for eternity, is only accessable through the POWER of Heaven, which is the Melchizedek Priesthood, the HOLY PRIESTHOOD OF GOD. You can argue this until the Savior shows up and taps you on the shoulder and says, "Jason, we need to talk" and it still will not change the truth. Some things are true whether you believe them or not.

Respectfully.

Sugar

(needed some color)

[Sugarbay]

Cat got your tongue?

[Jason]

Hi again Jason,

'Let me add a third: If one leaves willingly, no longer believes in it, then later adopts the idea that all religions are true and that all paths are correct, and then encounters one who requests a blessing, will God recognize the blessing?'

Obviously it is impossible to answer knowledgeably about this, but I would assume that god would not reject any blessing performed in his name that was for the benefit of the person to whom that blessing was being given, and was not contrary to his scheme of things, if you get what I mean...sorry it's difficult to express my meaning well!! :)

Pushka, I agree. In my mind, god will respect any blessing offered with the right spirit.

It doesn't take along time to find the truth if it is sitting on my desk in the form of the scriptures, or in the form of a phonecall to priesthood holders. It goes rather fast actually when the truth is right there and handy.

Ok, since you still want to talk about this, I'll try again. Do all of the D&C revelations apply to the Priesthood as well as the Church? I actually don't think so. Some were meant as revelations organizing the church as a body, while some were directed specifically at the Priesthood, whether there's a church or not.

Now, was the scripture you had in mind a "church" scripture or a "priesthood" scripture? And why?

To believe and argue that a man can use the Melchizedek Priesthood and give a blessing when he is not a member of the church and does not honor that priesthood which he held, and does not live the principles of the gospel, is just so much cerebral succotash.

Who said that the ex member didn't honor his priesthood? I didn't imply that. Im saying that the ex member totally respects the priesthood given to him, using the example I've provided.

[StrawberryFields]

Who said that the ex member didn't honor his priesthood? I didn't imply that. Im saying that the ex member totally respects the priesthood given to him, using the example I've provided.

Who is the ex member you are referring too?

I someone doesn't believe in the church where their where ordained why would they believe that the Priesthood was of Value?

[Jason]

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Who said that the ex member didn't honor his priesthood? I didn't imply that. Im saying that the ex member totally respects the priesthood given to him, using the example I've provided.

Who is the ex member you are referring too?

I someone doesn't believe in the church where their where ordained why would they believe that the Priesthood was of Value?

Have you actually read this whole thread berry? The "ex" member is nobody. It's just a hypothetical member I've invented for the purposes of this hypothetical situation for our hypothetical theory.

As for your second question, we're considering that the Priesthood has more value than the church. That's the whole point of this thread.

[Ray]

But the only way to get the Priesthood (authority of God) is by receiving it from our Lord or other people who received it from our Lord along with the authority to give it to others (the people who have the keys to organize and regulate the church of Christ), so if you reject the idea that those people have authority from our Lord, or if you reject what those people gave you by believing those people do not have authority from our Lord, then how does what the Church has and gave you have any value to you?

Or in other words, if members of the Church who have the Priesthood gave you the Priesthood, and you received it because you believed those people had the authority to give it to you, then how can you reject the idea that they can tell you not to use it?

And btw, I’m telling you how a person really receives or rejects the Priesthood, not giving you an idea about some other way you might get it or lose it which really does not work.

Anyway, sorry for interrupting the course of your thread. You can now go back to speculating about other ideas and applying your ideas to whatever.

[Sugarbay]

Ex-male members and male non-members do not hold the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood so the issue is moot. Reminds me of something my grandfather used to say: "Howard and Maeve sittin' on a fence, tryin' to make a dollar out of fifteen cents."

No membership=no priesthood. Like I said, cerebral succotash. Bon appetit. B)

[Jason]

But the only way to get the Priesthood (authority of God) is by receiving it from our Lord or other people who received it from our Lord along with the authority to give it to others (the people who have the keys to organize and regulate the church of Christ), so if you reject the idea that those people have authority from our Lord, or if you reject what those people gave you by believing those people do not have authority from our Lord, then how does what the Church has and gave you have any value to you?

Our test subject did receive the priesthood from the "authorized" servants of God in this example. Remember Ray? And our test subject may reject some of the doctrines of those who bestowed said authority, but that does not mean that said subject necessarily rejects anything else.

Ex-male members and male non-members do not hold the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood so the issue is moot.

This is a theory that you have yet to prove. The opinions of others do not constitute a reasonable refutation of this theory.

[StrawberryFields]

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Who said that the ex member didn't honor his priesthood? I didn't imply that. Im saying that the ex member totally respects the priesthood given to him, using the example I've provided.

Who is the ex member you are referring too?

I someone doesn't believe in the church where their where ordained why would they believe that the Priesthood was of Value?

Have you actually read this whole thread berry? The "ex" member is nobody. It's just a hypothetical member I've invented for the purposes of this hypothetical situation for our hypothetical theory.

Oh sorry Jason,

I guess I was confused that somewhere between post 4 and 5 this became about you and your ability to use the priesthood since leaving the church.

[Jason]

Oh sorry Jason,

I guess I was confused that somewhere between post 4 and 5 this became about you and your ability to use the priesthood since leaving the church.

No problem. Though this could potentially apply to me should the situation arise. Im not saying that I would or not, but I guess if my theory holds out (opinions notwithstanding) then I could.

[Ray]

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But the only way to get the Priesthood (authority of God) is by receiving it from our Lord or other people who received it from our Lord along with the authority to give it to others (the people who have the keys to organize and regulate the church of Christ), so if you reject the idea that those people have authority from our Lord, or if you reject what those people gave you by believing those people do not have authority from our Lord, then how does what the Church has and gave you have any value to you?

Our test subject did receive the priesthood from the "authorized" servants of God in this example. Remember Ray? And our test subject may reject some of the doctrines of those who bestowed said authority, but that does not mean that said subject necessarily rejects anything else.

Yes, I remember that Jason.

Do you remember when I said it would help to be more specific?

Or in other words, what were those doctrines that were rejected by the person who was given the Priesthood by those who had that authority?

And to save you some hassle in trying to come up with a relevant idea to use in your example, to put it simply, if a person rejects ANY doctrine which is taught by God through the Priesthood, that person is rejecting God by rejecting a message from God, and that person will then be accountable for rejecting God and His message. But, if a person is rejecting a doctrine which is not taught by God through the Priesthood, then that person is not rejecting God because that message is not from God.

Heh, and just in case that doesn’t say enough to help you solve your dilemma, speaking of your example, of course, I’ll give you one more tip to help you know who and what to believe by saying that anyone can know the truth by receiving an assurance from God.

And as I have already mentioned, the persons who receive the Priesthood and the “keys of the kingdom” from God have the authority to “bind and loose” their actions in Heaven as well as they can and do on Earth.

For instance, those persons can authorize as well as revoke the authority of God they give to someone, in Heaven and on Earth.

Or in other words, if there are actually some people on this Earth who have actually received authority and the keys of the kingdom from God, as I know there are and have been people like that in the Church, then their decisions are binding in Heaven as much as they are on Earth.

And btw, in case you still don’t realize it yet, we’ve been talking about the power of God.