Why 1600 Years For A Restoration?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 2 2004, 11:27 AM

Jenda,

you said: "In the scripture I quoted, the woman who travailed and gave birth to the child was the church, not the Roman empire. The child is the Kingdom of God (Zion). There is no way to interpret that scripture to mean what you are implying. None at all."

Actually, the woman is probably Mary, and the Child is Jesus. You interpolation of a Church is unfounded.

The rest of your post is speculation, not fact.

Jason

Mary fled into the wilderness for 1260 years?

John prophesied about something that had already happened?

Why don't you come up with a more realistic defense, because these have me ROFL.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by inactivetx@Mar 2 2004, 02:02 PM

John might not have died How you figure?

LDS believe that John was miraculouly transformed into an immortal being. I'm not sure if the correct term is translated or not. We just used to call it "twinkled."

[Jenda]

Originally posted by inactivetx+Mar 2 2004, 01:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (inactivetx @ Mar 2 2004, 01:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Mar 2 2004, 11:19 AM

Long about 570 AD, the woman (the church) flees to the wilderness for 1260 days (years).  That is descriptive of the apostacy.  The church is restored again in fullness 1260 years later, making it about 1830.  In 1830, the Church of Jesus Christ is organized, God's church is restored.

Jenda,

How did you arrive at the 570 AD date for the General Apostacy and how do you reconcile this with the LDS teaching that the apostacy began with the death of the Apostle John around 100 AD? Otherwise, your math is quite interesting.

(I am RLDS, for those of you that are new here.)

We believe the apostasy occured when God removed his authority from the church, which coincided with all the truth of the gospel being lost. While it is impossible, IMO, for man to put a date on that, when you look at the volume of evidence that has been amassed by many theological historians, the 25 years, or so, preceeding 600 AD seem to point to the greatest period of time where the church experienced its greatest decline in morality, etc., and is given as the most likely date of the apostasy. Which does co-incide with the 1260 years in the wilderness leading to Christ's church restored.

So, what the heck, I believe it.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by inactivetx+Mar 2 2004, 02:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (inactivetx @ Mar 2 2004, 02:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Mar 2 2004, 02:53 PM

BTW, we don't believe that John died at 100 AD (or at all).  Where do you get that date?

John might not have died How you figure?

Look in III Nephi for the answer to that question.

[srm]

Originally posted by inactivetx+Mar 2 2004, 02:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (inactivetx @ Mar 2 2004, 02:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Mar 2 2004, 02:53 PM

BTW, we don't believe that John died at 100 AD (or at all).  Where do you get that date?

This is from The Amazing Bible World History Timeline (Do a Google)

"John: No death date given by early writers. Death date is by conjecture only and is variously assigned as being between 89 AD to 120 AD "

John might not have died How you figure?

John 21:22; D&C 7; 3 Ne. 28:6-11

[Jason]

srm,

I don't remember about the Bishop. I believe he was ex'ed about the same time. It was on local Utah channels (ktvx 4). Perhaps a search on their website will bring up something. (In case your wondering, Im not making this up to be difficult...)

inactivetx,

Evidence of God's grace? Good question. I look at it like this: First, here is the longest surviving "institution" in the history of mankind. Second, inspite of the unrighteousness of several Popes, the doctrine has remained the same. You could say that God's Spirit outlived any Papal sin. Third, the Faith of millions has continued in spite of everything.

The Fact is that without the Catholic Church, there would be no knowledge of Christ. Im sure that others could do a better job, but that's just off the top of my head.

Jenda,

You said: "Mary fled into the wilderness for 1260 years?"

Where did you get years? It says days? Could that be the interpolation of man.......

You also said: "We believe the apostasy occured when God removed his authority from the church, which coincided with all the truth of the gospel being lost."

What part of the Gospel was lost? The Catholic Church has the Keys of the Priesthood, Baptism, Confirmation, Marriage, a knowledge of the afterlife, Resurrection, Faith and works, etc. So what's missing???

Jason

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 2 2004, 04:01 PM

Jenda,

You said: "Mary fled into the wilderness for 1260 years?"

Where did you get years?  It says days?  Could that be the interpolation of man.......

You also said: "We believe the apostasy occured when God removed his authority from the church, which coincided with all the truth of the gospel being lost."

What part of the Gospel was lost?  The Catholic Church has the Keys of the Priesthood, Baptism, Confirmation, Marriage, a knowledge of the afterlife, Resurrection, Faith and works, etc.  So what's missing???

Jason

They seem to be missing all of it since what they teach and practice bears no resemblence to the church that Christ organized and the teachings he taught. Their priesthood is not the same. Their ordinances are not the same. None of it is the same. Why do you think it is?

Let me make a suggestion, since you seem to have no idea what everyone is talking about, why don't you go and take a couple of courses in early church history and interpretation of prophecy, and then come back, because everyone else understands the basics, but you insist that everyone (but you) is wrong. So, I suggest educating yourself a little before sticking your foot in your mouth too many times.

[Jason]

Jenda,

Ran out of ideas already?....

You argued that John couldn't have prophesied about things in the past. But Hadn't Jesus already been born by the time John was on Patmos Island? I quote: "And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne."

That was the past, right? Or does the Community of Christ teach that St. John lived before Jesus?

When I asked you about what things were missing in the Catholic Church you replied: "They seem to be missing all of it since what they teach and practice bears no resemblence to the church that Christ organized and the teachings he taught."

Please give me a few examples....

You said: "Their priesthood is not the same."

In what way?

you said: "Their ordinances are not the same."

In what way?

you said: "None of it is the same."

NONE OF IT!? Really?

You said: "Why do you think it is?"

Im still waiting on you.....

Jason

[Ray]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@ Mar 2 2004, 04:01 PM

The Fact is that without the Catholic Church, there would be no knowledge of Christ.

Heh, what reasoning do you use to support that conclusion? Christ has been the central theme of all the prophets since the beginning of time, and when Christ was born on Earth the Catholic religion didn’t even exist.

What part of the Gospel was lost? The Catholic Church has the Keys of the Priesthood, Baptism, Confirmation, Marriage, a knowledge of the afterlife, Resurrection, Faith and works, etc. So what's missing???

What makes you think the Catholic church still has the keys? Do you realize they aren’t physical keys? Do you realize that God can take them back if He wants to? The “keys” represent the authority that God gives Man to act as God on Earth, and if God isn’t pleased with how Man is acting, God can take the keys back and leave Man alone to act only as Man. The power of the priesthood can only be exercised upon principles of righteousness, and when Man acts in any degree of unrighteousness, Amen to the authority of that Man…or something like that. You can search the scriptures for yourself. :)

[Jason]

Ray,

First, I believe that the Catholic Church is the church established by Jesus. Therefore, the heretical sects that sprang up in the first few centuries would have long ago corrupted the gospel. (Gnostics, Montanists, etc.)

As for the Keys of the Priesthood, Peter received those keys from Christ. They were passed on from the apostles to their successors, the Bishops, who have maintained them through today. There is no evidence to support the idea that the keys were removed and given to Joseph Smith. The D&C scripture about the "amen to the authority of that man" can't be correct given the unrighteousness of man. If an ordinance is dependent on the individual person, then nobody would be baptised, confirmed, or in your religion endowed properly. Nobody's perfect.

Jason

[Ray]

First, I believe that the Catholic Church is the church established by Jesus. Therefore, the heretical sects that sprang up in the first few centuries would have long ago corrupted the gospel. (Gnostics, Montanists, etc.)

I respect your right to have your own belief about this, but I’d like to hear about how you support your position. I think your belief is supported only by your own reasoning, and that you don’t have an assurance from God to tell you the truth about this. In fact, I know that your belief isn’t supported by an assurance from God, because God wouldn’t tell you something different than He has told me.

As for the Keys of the Priesthood, Peter received those keys from Christ. They were passed on from the apostles to their successors, the Bishops, who have maintained them through today. There is no evidence to support the idea that the keys were removed and given to Joseph Smith. The D&C scripture about the "amen to the authority of that man" can't be correct given the unrighteousness of man. If an ordinance is dependent on the individual person, then nobody would be baptised, confirmed, or in your religion endowed properly. Nobody's perfect.

There is also no evidence to support the idea that the keys remained on Earth through what came to be called the Catholic church. In fact, there is a lot of evidence against it.

I think you should give some more thought about the righteousness of Man. Not all Men, but many. Being righteous isn’t that hard. It only means that you do what God expects from you. It doesn’t mean that you are perfect, without any flaws or weaknesses to work on. As long as Man repents when He does something bad, determined to never do that bad thing again, Man is righteous, and through the power of the Holy Ghost that is available through the Atonement, Man becomes perfected.

Something else you may not be aware of is the fact that there are always several people in attendance at a baptism, or anything else that is done by Man with the priesthood, and the odds are very small that every Man with the priesthood in attendance is unrighteous. But then, how would you know that, without an assurance from God?

[Jason]

Ray,

I believe that we are talking about two things here. One is a testimony, the other is history. My history tells me that the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ. Your testimony tells you that the LDS church is God's church.

Knowing that (which is just an assumption on my part, not necessarily fact...) I believe that God expects me to use my head. If you recall, even your church believes that the "glory of God is intelligence". Therefore, using the reason that God gave me, following history, and several passages from the New Testament, I can reason that the Catholic Church is in fact Gods church.

Of course that will not do for someone like you. (not a put down by the way.) You must feel that warm, deep down in your chest feeling. Ive felt that feeling many times in my life. And I will admit that I don't feel it much anymore. But something else has happened to me. (warning: long story made short ahead) I've always had what I call a big spiritual hole in me. I can't explain it better than that. Nothing in my life has filled it. I lived my life like a righteous Mormon should. Filled an honorable mission, married in the Temple, paid my tithing, accepted all callings, etc, etc. Probably much like you. Unfortunately, in spite of my efforts, nothing has ever filled the hole. (I even saw a therapist, but no depression, etc.) I've had children (which has been wonderful) Ive got a good job, a house, no debt (except those darn student loans..) and everything in my life is great. Im a very happy person. But there's still that hole. It's like something is missing.

So in venturing to fill it, I've done quite alot. (you may remeber some of my posts from last year.) Finally, I walked away from Mormonism and embrased a personal philosophy. I gave up on God. More or less I was an atheist.

But that never filled the hole either.

Then I had a dream.

I followed my instincts to the local Parish.

That hole? It's shrinking.

The result? I'll trade the temporary warm fuzzy for filling the spiritual hole any day.

Jason

[Ray]

Without Faith, you will never know God. Your own reasoning abilities are not enough.

[Jason]

Frankly, Im using all the faith I have. And in trying not to take offense at your last post, I don't think you have any idea if I know God or not. That's between me and Christ.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 2 2004, 05:53 PM

I followed my instincts to the local Parish.

That hole? It's shrinking.

The result? I'll trade the temporary warm fuzzy for filling the spiritual hole any day.

Jason

Did you already post your story on this board? I'd like to hear it.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Me, too.

darn student loans

"Darn" is not an appropriate word with which to describe student loans. Use #$%@#$#. Or f------p------bsds----. Or even a****$@#$#@#%f----prsch****, if you're feeling really feisty.

[Jason]

Curvy,

Yeah, once upon a time. I don't know if there's some kind of archived place to pull it up. If not, let me know, I do a condensed version again....

J

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 2 2004, 04:22 PM

Jenda,

Ran out of ideas already?....

You argued that John couldn't have prophesied about things in the past. But Hadn't Jesus already been born by the time John was on Patmos Island? I quote: "And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne."

That was the past, right? Or does the Community of Christ teach that St. John lived before Jesus?

When I asked you about what things were missing in the Catholic Church you replied: "They seem to be missing all of it since what they teach and practice bears no resemblence to the church that Christ organized and the teachings he taught."

Please give me a few examples....

You said: "Their priesthood is not the same."

In what way?

you said: "Their ordinances are not the same."

In what way?

you said: "None of it is the same."

NONE OF IT!? Really?

You said: "Why do you think it is?"

Im still waiting on you.....

Jason

I'm sorry, your post makes absolutely no sense.

Jesus was dead by the time that John was on Patmos Island, so how could John have prophesied about Jesus? Or is it your assumption that John was speaking historically? If that is true, then why call the book "Revelations"?

A few areas where the Catholics have really twisted the words of Christ and created their own gospel separate from the one He set forth: Transubstantiation, Baptism of Infants, Original Sin, want me to go on? I got loads of them.

Have you really never heard the church referred to as the Bride of Christ? The church is the woman, the Bride of Christ. Really, you should not participate in discussions where you have no idea what is being discussed. All you are doing is reading what you want to see and hear into the scriptures to get to the beliefs you want to hold.

I don't know what you are waiting on me for, you are the one who is not supporting your view. Produce the scriptures that you feel refute my view (for which I provided scriptures for.)

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 2 2004, 06:15 PM

Curvy,

Yeah, once upon a time. I don't know if there's some kind of archived place to pull it up. If not, let me know, I do a condensed version again....

J

The board was purged a couple of months ago, and everything except a few threads was deleted. So, if you are thinking back past that time, sorry, gotta start all over.

[srm]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 2 2004, 05:53 PM

Ray,

I believe that we are talking about two things here. One is a testimony, the other is history. My history tells me that the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ. Your testimony tells you that the LDS church is God's church.

Knowing that (which is just an assumption on my part, not necessarily fact...) I believe that God expects me to use my head. If you recall, even your church believes that the "glory of God is intelligence". Therefore, using the reason that God gave me, following history, and several passages from the New Testament, I can reason that the Catholic Church is in fact Gods church.

Of course that will not do for someone like you. (not a put down by the way.) You must feel that warm, deep down in your chest feeling. Ive felt that feeling many times in my life. And I will admit that I don't feel it much anymore. But something else has happened to me. (warning: long story made short ahead) I've always had what I call a big spiritual hole in me. I can't explain it better than that. Nothing in my life has filled it. I lived my life like a righteous Mormon should. Filled an honorable mission, married in the Temple, paid my tithing, accepted all callings, etc, etc. Probably much like you. Unfortunately, in spite of my efforts, nothing has ever filled the hole. (I even saw a therapist, but no depression, etc.) I've had children (which has been wonderful) Ive got a good job, a house, no debt (except those darn student loans..) and everything in my life is great. Im a very happy person. But there's still that hole. It's like something is missing.

So in venturing to fill it, I've done quite alot. (you may remeber some of my posts from last year.) Finally, I walked away from Mormonism and embrased a personal philosophy. I gave up on God. More or less I was an atheist.

But that never filled the hole either.

Then I had a dream.

I followed my instincts to the local Parish.

That hole? It's shrinking.

The result? I'll trade the temporary warm fuzzy for filling the spiritual hole any day.

Jason

Jason, I'm so happy to hear that the 'hole' is filling in for you. You are right your posts are different than last year. Are you joining the Catholic Church?

[Jason]

srm,

Thank you. And yes, Im probably going to join the CC.

Jenda,

Since im apparently not as familiar with that passage as you, I found a commentary by Dummelow (a protestant) on the subject. Here's what he said:

"The Church, of both the OT and NT covenants, is shown under the figure of a woman, clothed with heavenly glory from whom the Messiah is about to come. She is opposed by the devil, pictured as a dragon, red with the blood of the saints. His seven heads and ten horns represent the Roman emperors through whom he exercised his power. The seven crowned heads signify the seven emperors, from Augustus to Titus, who had really reigned. The ten horns may stand for the same emperors with the addition of Galba, Otho, and Vitellius. The dragon waits to attack the Messiah, but when He is born, the dragon has no power over Him, and He is exalted to God's throne. The Church escapes from the dragon to be kept during a time of trouble."

(Dummelow, The One Volume Bible Commentary, 1082)

Looks like I was only partly right in my posts. Looks like you were totally wrong in yours.

Jason

PS. The Douay-Rheims Version (the first English translation of the Bible) calls the book Apocalypse, not Revelation.

[Jason]

PD,

Yeah, Darn is not the right word for Student Loan Debt!

J

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 2 2004, 08:26 PM

Jenda,

Since im apparently not as familiar with that passage as you, I found a commentary by Dummelow (a protestant) on the subject. Here's what he said:

"The Church, of both the OT and NT covenants, is shown under the figure of a woman, clothed with heavenly glory from whom the Messiah is about to come. She is opposed by the devil, pictured as a dragon, red with the blood of the saints. His seven heads and ten horns represent the Roman emperors through whom he exercised his power. The seven crowned heads signify the seven emperors, from Augustus to Titus, who had really reigned. The ten horns may stand for the same emperors with the addition of Galba, Otho, and Vitellius. The dragon waits to attack the Messiah, but when He is born, the dragon has no power over Him, and He is exalted to God's throne. The Church escapes from the dragon to be kept during a time of trouble."

(Dummelow, The One Volume Bible Commentary, 1082)

Looks like I was only partly right in my posts. Looks like you were totally wrong in yours.

Jason

Funny, I recall you saying that the woman was Mary and that John was prophesying about Jesus' birth. That doesn't sound anything like what you have written here.

I do believe that I had the closer interpretation, the woman being the church which flees into the wilderness to be kept during a time of trouble. The only place we don't agree on is what the time of trouble is.

But, you can think you agreed with him, it's OK.

[Jason]

Jenda,

Well, would you say that Christ came from the Church, or vice versa? Sounds like heresy to me!

Jason

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 2 2004, 09:22 PM

Jenda,

Well, would you say that Christ came from the Church, or vice versa? Sounds like heresy to me!

Jason

I didn't say that I agreed with his interpretation that the child was Christ, as I stated earlier, IMO, and in the other writings that I have read, the child represents the Kingdom of God (Zion).

I believe that the church came from God, Christ is the bridegroom, the church is the bride.