I Think We Should Talk About Jesus

[Guest ApostleKnight]

AK, your ability to lay out your beliefs, in a tactful and civil way, without snide comments, putdowns, etc. adds value to this board and helps justify spending time (which I don't have much of) here. Thank you.

I'm not just stroking your ego when I feel to say the same thing about you and your posts. I think people get offended when they feel insecure in their beliefs, or that something sacred is being ridiculed. On this board, I find that more often it's because people (LDS and non-LDS) are insecure in their beliefs. If the Truth will set us free, then there's no need to fear discussing it, and I appreciate your understanding of this as evidenced by your fair and impartial questions/responses.

I don’t think God can “learn to do it better than He already has.”

Such a notion would certainly rob Him of his perfection in all ways. I agree.

My hope is to learn why people believe the way they do. Can they verbalize it? Do they know why they believe it? Do they know why they want to share that belief with others?

This is an incredibly important comment in my mind. I believe that unless you can teach something to someone, you don't understand it yourself. I feel threatened by what I don't know, and I don't like feeling threatened. Hence one hallmark of my personal discipleship is to know--really own--a concept before I engage in discussing it authoritatively. Being able to explain why I feel/believe/think a certain way is far superior than being able to regurgitate scripture and sermon. If I can't, I don't own the belief/opinion and hence can't give away what's not mine in the first place. I applaud your desire to cut to the heart of belief and really root through the testimonies and witnesses on this board. I feel confident that all things being equal, much good will come of such an approach.

Another one of my biases is that God is not contradictory to logic. I don’t feel comfortable saying, “It’s a mystery” and leaving it at that for things that are logical absurd.

Couldn't agree more. I remember discussing with a Lutheran friend of mine the LDS concept of God having an exalted body of flesh and bone (not blood), having arms, legs and everything else we do (the whole, "in the image of God" thing). He heatedly disagreed and when I asked what God was his reply had a hollow and pathetic ring to it: "We're not supposed to understand exactly what type of being God is. It's the wonderful mystery of God being three in one and one in three," or some such rubbish. Not that I don't allow for everyone to have their own opinion, but when Jesus says eternal life is to know God and Christ, not just entertain vague mysterious ideas about their nature, I take him at his word.

Now as this applies to LDS theology and our own little discussion about eternity, Zeno, et al, I confess that it can be used as a cop-out to say, "Well we'll never fully understand in this life." However in some cases that's simply the truth. But I'd hope I and everyone else here would be willing to reason through as much as we can understand and perhaps unearth a previously hidden gem of knowledge. :) I look forward to more posts and discussions with you and others in the future in this spirit of discovery.

[Ray]

But no matter how much we talk about "things", we can't make someone believe the truth, which is why I was suggesting that we talk more about Faith, which is the only way to know God.

But sure, we can have some interesting discussions, and maybe get to like "each other" better, but I would hope we want more than that... more than just talking "about" the Truth.

And btw, to “take a leap of faith” as someone put it, is NOT what I am suggesting, and anyone who knows what Faith really is would never do something that stupid.

Or in other words, I am not suggesting that we believe or form a belief about something simply because that idea makes some sense to our logical minds, which is what I think people are talking about when they talk about making a “leap of faith”.

Rather, I am talking about receiving an assurance from God, with the understanding that faith is an assurance, and we should all seek our assurance from God, regardless of any “other” ideas that simply make sense to us.

Or in other words, I am saying that to know the truth, we must seek to have God assure us of what is true, and I’m also not talking about simply “believing” God has given us His assurance, having any kind of doubt that He has.

Or in other words, I am saying that when God gives us His assurance, we will “know” that it came from God, and there then should not be any more doubts about what we have “asked” Him to tell us.

And btw, anyone who would say something like “if God exists”, or “if there really is such a being as God”, is showing that they have yet to discover the truth from Him, or at the least they seem to be trying to avoid sharing it.

Oh, and one more thing. Anyone who believes they or someone else is some kind of nutty fruitcake simply because they "know" God talks to them by assuring them of the truth also has yet to discover the truth from Him, or at the least they seem to be trying to avoid sharing it, which doesn't do others any good.

Or in other words, people, I am saying that we should be talking about Faith, and how to get Faith from God, while maybe sometimes sharing what we have learned from Him, as long as we are primarily focused on sharing from Whom we learned it. And anyone who doesn’t know or at least claim to have Faith still has a LOT to learn.

And btw, I use faith with a capital F to refer to an assurance from God.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I don't intend this post to be an attack. I intend it to be constructive criticism from one friend to another. I am not any man's judge nor do I claim such authority.

But no matter how much we talk about "things", we can't make someone believe the truth, which is why I was suggesting that we talk more about Faith, which is the only way to know God.

No offense Ray (I don't say that perfunctorily, I really mean it), but your posts--to me at least--have a "you should believe me because God said so" flavor to them.

While I fully believe God has spoken to you, playing that trump card over and over hasn't advanced understanding on this board too much. I fully believe it is important to share our testimonies...say, "I know because God has assured me..." but there comes a point where people want to go beyond your believing something because God said it's true, and why else it "makes sense" or "feels right" to you.

I may be wrong, but I think I speak for a few others who want to hear more posts where you cite scripture, anecdotes and even a wee bit of logic as supports for your beliefs. Not because you or I should try to "make" someone believe as we do, but there is more than one way to testify of a truth beyond saying, "Because God answered my prayers." That is of course the supreme testimony, but there are other facets to a personal witness that I and others would be interesting in hearing from you. We know you have good stuff to say. We just want to hear more reasons why you hold certain beliefs that aren't of the "this discussion is over because I know it" flavor.

But sure, we can have some interesting discussions, and maybe get to like "each other" better, but I would hope we want more than that... more than just talking "about" the Truth.

Increasing fellowship through discussion is not admirable? I don't know of any other way to discover more truth than by discussing it. Sure we each must ponder and pray about something to know if it's ultimately true or not, but what is there to pray about if all we say on this board is, "I know that <insert LDS belief here> is true by faith and that's how you can know." By itself, such a statement lacks the impact a discussion of beliefs can bring.

And btw, to "take a leap of faith" as someone put it, is NOT what I am suggesting, and anyone who knows what Faith really is would never do something that stupid.

This is an example of the "superiority" flavor I get from some--not all--of your posts. This tone of writing puts off even someone like me who agrees with you doctrinally. You have good stuff to say, and I think more people would tune in if you alter your method of delivery. Nope, I'm not saying you have to, I'm simply suggesting that you consider how others "hear" your posts.

Rather, I am talking about receiving an assurance from God, with the understanding that faith is an assurance, and we should all seek our assurance from God, regardless of any "other" ideas that simply make sense to us.

But as Paul points out in Hebrews 11:1, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. There is a lot of evidence supporting my belief in the Book of Mormon, evidence beyond answered prayers. Discussing such evidence may prompt someone to want to pray to know if it's true. Or it may not.

If someone thought the Book of Mormon was true based purely on archeological evidence, not on prayer as well, then that'd be secular faith (incomplete by itself in my mind). But having secular faith along with answered prayers isn't wrong or unworthy of discussion. If you don't enjoy it, that's okay, but I know lots of people on this board enjoy discussing the "secular" facets (historical, archeological, logical, geological, etc...) of their testimonies along with the spiritual witness.

Or in other words, I am saying that to know the truth, we must seek to have God assure us of what is true, and I’m also not talking about simply "believing" God has given us His assurance, having any kind of doubt that He has.

The problem, Ray, is that you cannot prove or disprove whether someone had God speak to them or not. To think that you or I can judge whether God spoke to someone else based on what they believe is arrogant. That's all there is to it. Most people (myself included) don't open our minds and ears to the tune of an arrogant trumpet, regardless of whether it's song is true or not.

Or in other words, I am saying that when God gives us His assurance, we will "know" that it came from God, and there then should not be any more doubts about what we have "asked" Him to tell us.

Perhaps there shouldn't be doubt. But there often is, and saying, "You either know or don't," doesn't help anyone sort out their feelings and answered prayers. Can you see that?

And btw, anyone who would say something like "if God exists", or "if there really is such a being as God", is showing that they have yet to discover the truth from Him, or at the least they seem to be trying to avoid sharing it.

Ray, buddy...such sweeping judgments as yours above are irresponsible. I won't sugarcoat it. I normally agree with you. I respect your opinions and beliefs. But you have a habit of sounding like you're talking down to others. People sometimes speak hypothetically to illustrate or refute a point. Keeping a discussion open to people who may not believe in God yet doesn't reflect at all on whether the other participants believe in God or not. Do you honestly think someone reading your comment above would say to themselves, "Hey y'know what? Ray is right. I obviously haven't discovered the truth and now's as good a time to start as any." It'd take a bigger man than me to read it that way.

Oh, and one more thing. Anyone who believes they or someone else is some kind of nutty fruitcake simply because they "know" God talks to them by assuring them of the truth also has yet to discover the truth from Him

I'll leave the fallacious reasoning of this comment alone and focus on what I perceive to be the underlying commonality in most of your posts. Ray, you strike me as someone who feels defensive and threatened when someone expresses disagreement with you. Or critiques you as I am doing now. I think I know how you'll respond to this whole post of mine, but I feel this all needs to be said in the spirit of one friend checking another friend's blind spot.

Your posts often have a "drive-by shooting" feel to them. Let me be concrete so you don't feel like I'm picking on you. Phrases like, "and by the way...", and "oh, and one more thing..." are typical of someone responding to a perceived attack. Usually you put at least one word per sentence in quotations as a means of belittling or emphasizing something. It seems you feel you must emphasize the important point of each statement or else it'll be lost on us. Let me illustrate this.

Someone who "always" has to put important words in quotations "obviously" has some amount of impatience with other people's "unwillingness" to agree with them.

Do you see how that reads and feels?

I'm no psychologist, but I'd wager that growing up you felt misunderstood, persecuted or ostracized and so developed this "get your point in and then get out" method. But Ray, we're all friends here, or are trying to be. Take your time, explain your beliefs and then don't lose any sleep if not everyone understands or agrees with you.

I think I understand your doctrinal beliefs, why you believe them and I happen to think that most of the time you're views are correct. Which is why I hate to see your testimony expressed in such a defensive way. You have nothing to be defensive about, you're an intelligent guy. Others realize that too. Bring us to our senses, not our knees. In so doing, you'll multiply the value of your contributions to the board and encourage others to share too without fear of condemnation.

Thanks man, I know you probably didn't enjoy reading any of this, not that I particularly enjoyed writing any of it. I just felt like offering a friendly observation or two in the hopes that we might have the opportunity to hear more of your beliefs and understand them better. I admit I am just one man, not necessarily a perfect judge of character or intent. I apologize if I have given you reason to feel misjudged or persecuted. I certainly don't enjoy feeling those things and ask forgiveness if I came on too strong. Know that my intent was honorable.

And anyone who doesn’t know or at least claim to have Faith still has a LOT to learn.

I look forward to learning anything and everything I can from your unique experiences and views. In the future, I hope that I and others can come to feel and know the truths that you do. Take care bro.

[shanstress70]

Amen to AK. I got used to this tone some time ago, and now when I read it I just shake my head. Unlike you AK, I am one of those who disagrees with Ray's basic beliefs, so I really used to get the brunt of it. Now I pretty much don't participate in discussions with him.

It's funny how some posters and I agree to disagree and can have fruitful conversations. I think this is an important skill to have.

Just my two cents...

[Ray]

ApostleKnight,

First of all, I’d really like you to try to believe me when I tell you that I really did "listen" to what you said and I did not take any “offense” to your words, because you expressed what you thought very well, BUT… I now know for a fact that you don’t understand me and the reason I say what I say… nor the things I have said, and am still trying to say, as I share and have shared all my words.

And even though I believe I have sufficiently explained myself before, in response to several other people with those ideas, I will try once again to explain “myself” for you with hope that you will then be better able to somehow know “me”.

First of all, I use the phrases “And btw” and “Or in other words” for reasons other than to try to be annoying or with the idea that I am now about to “speak down” to other people. Or in other words, I use those words to let others (if not only myself) know that I’m about to express a thought I had or am having as I write down in words what I think, with each of those phrases helping (at least in my mind) to share the thoughts that I think and write down.

For instance, I use the phrase “Or in other words” as I am about to write down a thought which I think is related to the thought I just expressed, and I use the phrase “And btw” as I am about to write down a thought which I think is not related to the thought I just expressed. And I also use “quotation marks” to indicate that the words I put in “quotes” are a central thought in my mind, which I think might help other people to know where I was focusing my thoughts as I was writing my words for the people who are reading my words and are trying to understand what I thought as I tried to share my thoughts with them through words.

And btw, as I just said... and I am repeating it again now because I’d also like you to clearly understand what I meant... if none of "those" words I write help you to understand the thoughts I am trying to share with you and others as I try to write down what I think in words, those “writing conventions” do in fact help ME to write down the thoughts I am thinking and trying to share with you and with others.

Second of all, after I share my thoughts and words about all the things I write down and have done the best I can do to “explain”, I feel the urge to say and share the only way I know to learn what I learned and am sharing with others.

Or in other words, I have “passion” for the idea that I should be sharing my belief that all of us should be learning by “Faith”, because I want to help other people learn “the way” that I learned, and I also believe that is the best thing to say… since it is the only way to truly know the Truth, or the only way to truly know God.

Or in other words, I don’t want my words about the things that I share to replace anyone’s knowledge from God, and I also believe I should give credit to Him since He is the one who taught me.

And btw, if you haven’t noticed, I am usually talking to people who don’t know all of the things that I know, and much less all of the things that “we” know, which is also part of the reason that people hear “that” so much, as I try to help other people try to learn "Who" they should know.

And now, last of all, I will respond to the comments you made which weren’t about “me”, “personally”, just in case you might still want to read what I write, while trying to continue to improve my writing style and social graces.

…I may be wrong, but I think I speak for a few others who want to hear more posts where you cite scripture, anecdotes and even a wee bit of logic as supports for your beliefs.

I have done those things, and I still do them often, but sometimes I simply share what I know. And if you have a problem with that, then you don’t want to know “me”… even though for some reason you think you can judge me.

And btw, “judgment” in this context is not something that you can’t or aren’t supposed to do, since we all do and need to make some judgments calls, but in that process we should be careful about "how" we judge others, otherwise we might only show them how “we” are.

…there is more than one way to testify of a truth beyond saying, "Because God answered my prayers." That is of course the supreme testimony, but there are other facets to a personal witness that I and others would be interesting in hearing from you. We know you have good stuff to say. We just want to hear more reasons why you hold certain beliefs that aren't of the "this discussion is over because I know it" flavor.

But ultimately I think “that” is the “best” message to share. Or in other words, after we say all we can say to share what we know with others, in the very best way we know how (and we each have our own methods or conventions for doing that… while trying to improve), the “best” thing to say is that we should learn from God… while sharing what we have learned with others.

And btw, those words are my attempt to share my thoughts with you, but you can always disagree with me if you want to.

Increasing fellowship through discussion is not admirable?

Sure it is, but we would then only be learning about “them”… and I am promoting fellowship with God.

I don't know of any other way to discover more truth than by discussing it.

I agree that other people can give us some thoughts to think about, but the only way to know the truth is through God.

And again, that is simply another part of “my” testimony, and you can also disagree with that if you want to.

Sure we each must ponder and pray about something to know if it's ultimately true or not, but what is there to pray about if all we say on this board is, "I know that <insert LDS belief here> is true by faith and that's how you can know." By itself, such a statement lacks the impact a discussion of beliefs can bring.

Do you really believe that a discussion of our beliefs helps other people to know they are true?

And btw, I don’t think so, as I said up above, although our thoughts do give us something to think about.

… is an example of the "superiority" flavor I get from some--not all--of your posts. This tone of writing puts off even someone like me who agrees with you doctrinally. You have good stuff to say, and I think more people would tune in if you alter your method of delivery. Nope, I'm not saying you have to, I'm simply suggesting that you consider how others "hear" your posts.

People make up their own minds about how they choose to “hear” someone, but I do not feel “superior” to others.

…as Paul points out in Hebrews 11:1, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. There is a lot of evidence supporting my belief in the Book of Mormon, evidence beyond answered prayers. Discussing such evidence may prompt someone to want to pray to know if it's true. Or it may not.

But I do not want to encourage people to believe for those reasons, because I know the best way is to truly know God.

If someone thought the Book of Mormon was true based purely on archeological evidence, not on prayer as well, then that'd be secular faith (incomplete by itself in my mind). But having secular faith along with answered prayers isn't wrong or unworthy of discussion. If you don't enjoy it, that's okay, but I know lots of people on this board enjoy discussing the "secular" facets (historical, archeological, logical, geological, etc...) of their testimonies along with the spiritual witness.

If by “secular faith” you’re talking about accepting the assurances of people other than God, and are then adding the idea that it isn’t wrong to believe the assurances of people other than God, I will say that those assurances will only get you so far, and while I do like to read books and writings from others, I only accept assurances of God, known as Faith.

The problem, Ray, is that you cannot prove or disprove whether someone had God speak to them or not.

Yes, I can. I can take all of my thoughts and the thoughts I get from other people and God will assure me of any truth that is in them. Or in other words, we can know whether or not anyone is a “prophet”.

To think that you or I can judge whether God spoke to someone else based on what they believe is arrogant.

No, it is testimony, if God tells you those beliefs are not true.

For instance, if someone really believes that God is a turtle, I can judge whether or not God told them that.

That's all there is to it. Most people (myself included) don't open our minds and ears to the tune of an arrogant trumpet, regardless of whether it's song is true or not.

Arrogance can sometimes only be in the mind of the beholder.

Perhaps there shouldn't be doubt. But there often is, and saying, "You either know or don't," doesn't help anyone sort out their feelings and answered prayers. Can you see that?

No, I can’t see that, because you either know or you know you don’t know, and I think that it helps to know that. And btw, I have no problem saying “I don’t know” to anything I really don’t know.

Ray: And btw, anyone who would say something like "if God exists", or "if there really is such a being as God", is showing that they have yet to discover the truth from Him, or at the least they seem to be trying to avoid sharing it.

ApostleKnight: People sometimes speak hypothetically to illustrate or refute a point. Keeping a discussion open to people who may not believe in God yet doesn't reflect at all on whether the other participants believe in God or not. Do you honestly think someone reading your comment above would say to themselves, "Hey y'know what? Ray is right. I obviously haven't discovered the truth and now's as good a time to start as any." It'd take a bigger man than me to read it that way.

I said they either don’t know God or “seem to be trying to avoid sharing <the fact that they know God”, and while I can also see your point, I think we should simply say whether we know Him or not.

And btw, I also believe our Lord prefers it when we “testify” to other people, although we don’t necessarily need to share “everything” we know.

Ray: Oh, and one more thing. Anyone who believes they or someone else is some kind of nutty fruitcake simply because they "know" God talks to them by assuring them of the truth also has yet to discover the truth from Him

ApostleKnight: I'll leave the fallacious reasoning of this comment alone and focus on what I perceive to be the underlying commonality in most of your posts. Ray, you strike me as someone who feels defensive and threatened when someone expresses disagreement with you. Or critiques you as I am doing now. I think I know how you'll respond to this whole post of mine, but I feel this all needs to be said in the spirit of one friend checking another friend's blind spot.

Next time, before you consider my reasoning to be fallacious, you should ask me to explain what I meant.

And what I meant, in other words, is that God talks to “us” by assuring “us” of the truth, and anyone who doesn’t know “that” has yet to discover the (I meant "that") truth from God.

Your posts often have a "drive-by shooting" feel to them.

If you meant that sometimes I am direct and to the point, then Yes, I would agree with that.

Phrases like, "and by the way...", and "oh, and one more thing..." are typical of someone responding to a perceived attack.

Typical for some people maybe, but that is not how I feel or what I meant.

Usually you put at least one word per sentence in quotations as a means of belittling or emphasizing something.

I hope my “explanations” above have helped you.

It seems you feel you must emphasize the important point of each statement or else it'll be lost on us.

As I said, I also use that as a means of helping “me” to express what I think, and even if it doesn’t help you, it might actually help other people. And who knows, maybe someday I will learn to communicate better without doing or saying all that.

Someone who "always" has to put important words in quotations "obviously" has some amount of impatience with other people's "unwillingness" to agree with them.

Do you see how that reads and feels?

As I said, people perceive and can perceive all things very differently, and I have explained how I perceive all that.

I'm no psychologist, but I'd wager that growing up you felt misunderstood, persecuted or ostracized and so developed this "get your point in and then get out" method. But Ray, we're all friends here, or are trying to be. Take your time, explain your beliefs and then don't lose any sleep if not everyone understands or agrees with you.

Let me guess. You’re not a psychologist, but you’ve always admired and wanted to play that role on the internet, and you saw and see “me” as your chance.

And btw, I do take my time as I try to explain, and I won’t lose any sleep over “that”.

I think I understand your doctrinal beliefs, why you believe them and I happen to think that most of the time you're views are correct. Which is why I hate to see your testimony expressed in such a defensive way. You have nothing to be defensive about, you're an intelligent guy. Others realize that too. Bring us to our senses, not our knees. In so doing, you'll multiply the value of your contributions to the board and encourage others to share too without fear of condemnation.

Heh, what else can I say. I’ll try to keep doing everything I can do even better. :)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I now know for a fact that you don’t understand me and the reason I say what I say… nor the things I have said, and am still trying to say, as I share and have shared all my words.

I agree. I didn't understand you. I think I understand you better after reading your well-written reply. I get why you use quotation marks the way you do, as well as why you use certain phrases which could've been interpreted incorrectly (as I did). Sorry for that.

Or in other words, I don’t want my words about the things that I share to replace anyone’s knowledge from God, and I also believe I should give credit to Him since He is the one who taught me.

To God alone the glory, as you said.

And btw, those words are my attempt to share my thoughts with you, but you can always disagree with me if you want to.

I know I can, but I happen to agree with you now that I understand you better.

Do you really believe that a discussion of our beliefs helps other people to know they are true?

As long as truth is discussed, yep. I sure understand the truth a lot better when the prophets and apostles discuss their beliefs in conference or elsewhere. The key, I guess, is how and what we discuss. I realize we each have different communication styles, I simply didn't understand yours before now. That's all in the past.

If by “secular faith” you’re talking about accepting the assurances of people other than God, and are then adding the idea that it isn’t wrong to believe the assurances of people other than God, I will say that those assurances will only get you so far, and while I do like to read books and writings from others, I only accept assurances of God, known as Faith.

The great thing about books is that people can record their assurances from God for others to read. This can indeed fortify the faith of others, as the D&C points out:

"To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world."

"To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful." (D&C 46:13-14, emphasis mine)

For instance, if someone really believes that God is a turtle, I can judge whether or not God told them that.

Fair enough. :)

Arrogance can sometimes only be in the mind of the beholder.

I agree. I also agree that part of effective communication is anticipating how other people might "behold" what we say, and expressing ourselves in a way that speaks to them individually. As the slogan for one game points out: "It's not what you say, it's what they hear." (the game is Mad Gab) Of course no one can know how everyone will hear what they say or type, it's just something to strive for I believe.

If you meant that sometimes I am direct and to the point, then Yes, I would agree with that.

Bold but not overbearing, bold but not overbearing. :) That's the goal.

Let me guess. You’re not a psychologist, but you’ve always admired and wanted to play that role on the internet, and you saw and see “me” as your chance.

Now who's being the psychologist? Just joking, seriously though, I do try to analyze what I read as there are usually more layers of meaning than are apparent at first glance. But as Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sorry for misreading your posts. Well I'm excited to get discussing more stuff now that I see the big picture better. Thanks for bearing with me Ray, I appreciate it.

[Ray]

Ray: I now know for a fact that you don’t understand me and the reason I say what I say… nor the things I have said, and am still trying to say, as I share and have shared all my words.

ApostleKnight: I agree. I didn't understand you. I think I understand you better after reading your well-written reply. I get why you use quotation marks the way you do, as well as why you use certain phrases which could've been interpreted incorrectly (as I did). Sorry for that.

Your apology was already accepted and I now want you to forget it. :)

Ray: Or in other words, I don’t want my words about the things that I share to replace anyone’s knowledge from God, and I also believe I should give credit to Him since He is the one who taught me.

ApostleKnight: To God alone the glory, as you said.

Yes, and as you are also saying now too. :)

Ray: And btw, those words are my attempt to share my thoughts with you, but you can always disagree with me if you want to.

ApostleKnight: I know I can, but I happen to agree with you now that I understand you better.

And I hope we will continue to become one with Him too.

Ray: Do you really believe that a discussion of our beliefs helps other people to know they are true?

ApostleKnight: As long as truth is discussed, yep. I sure understand the truth a lot better when the prophets and apostles discuss their beliefs in conference or elsewhere. The key, I guess, is how and what we discuss. I realize we each have different communication styles, I simply didn't understand yours before now. That's all in the past.

Me too, but it’s not because and it’s never been because I have accepted whatever “they” tell us.

Or in other words, the “key” is not that we hear the truth, from whoever it is that tells us, the “key” is that we “ask” and get an assurance from God, so we can then "know" the truth.

And btw, in case you missed what I said in another thread, the “asking” doesn’t have to be a “formal” asking, as in a formal prayer, because God can ALWAYS hear what we’re thinking and He is ALWAYS ready to give us His answer.

ApostleKnight: The great thing about books is that people can record their assurances from God for others to read. This can indeed fortify the faith of others, as the D&C points out:

"To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world."

"To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful." (D&C 46:13-14, emphasis mine)

But those who know the truth by believing "on their words" also receive their assurance from God.

Or in other words, sometimes the Holy Ghost will assure us of a truth that nobody else told us (just as Peter gained his testimony), and sometimes the Holy Ghost will assure us of the truth that somebody else has told us... but either way the only way to know the truth is to receive that assurance from God.

Ray: Arrogance can sometimes only be in the mind of the beholder.

ApostleKnight: I agree. I also agree that part of effective communication is anticipating how other people might "behold" what we say, and expressing ourselves in a way that speaks to them individually. As the slogan for one game points out: "It's not what you say, it's what they hear." (the game is Mad Gab) Of course no one can know how everyone will hear what they say or type, it's just something to strive for I believe.

I do try to say what I say the best way I know how, but I think Satan has a lot to do with this too.

Or in other words, even if we used the best language available, Satan still has influence with others too.

And btw, I really don’t want to talk about Satan.

ApostleKnight: Bold but not overbearing, bold but not overbearing. :) That's the goal.

I think listening to truth without getting offended is the goal, or at least that is it for me.

Ray: Let me guess. You’re not a psychologist, but you’ve always admired and wanted to play that role on the internet, and you saw and see “me” as your chance.

ApostleKnight: Now who's being the psychologist? Just joking, seriously though, I do try to analyze what I read as there are usually more layers of meaning than are apparent at first glance. But as Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I agree. I think all of this is much simpler than most of us seem to think.

ApostleKnight: … I'm excited to get discussing more stuff now that I see the big picture better.

Heh, but I was trying to say that we should all be trying to have Faith and fellowship with God… instead of talking so much about “us”, and what “we” believe is His doctrine.

ApostleKnight: Thanks for bearing with me Ray, I appreciate it.

I do try, and I hope you are also bearing with me too, as we try to help everybody learn from God. :)

[Dr T]

Hello Ray,

I know you will not appreciate this but I will not feel comfortable letting it continue without another attempt.

I addressed you publicly (the first time) about my impression of your posts. You dismissed my feedback out of hand. AK basically told you the same things that I took issue with. You apparently have heard this over and over, yet you continue. I have tried multiple times to PM messages like this to you but you must have turned off the PM option from me. So that option is out. I fear that if I don’t tell you this, you’ll continue making conversations unpleasant. So I had to bring it to this thread.

I fear that you misunderstand my initial apology. I was apologizing for addressing you that way in public (which I’m doing again). This is not to be confused with an acceptance of your rude conduct. I was hopeful that AK's feedback would be effective in altering your approach, but it wasn’t. I fear that you will also take AK's last post as another “acceptance” of how you treat others in you posts. That idea is just not true. It’s not acceptable to many people (I’ve heard multiple people give this type of feedback about you). Of course, you are free to say what you want. I'm just asking, for the good of this board, that you raise your level of social graces when you post.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Ray]

Hello Ray,

I know you will not appreciate this but I will not feel comfortable letting it continue without another attempt.

I addressed you publicly (the first time) about my impression of your posts. You dismissed my feedback out of hand. AK basically told you the same things that I took issue with. You apparently have heard this over and over, yet you continue. I have tried multiple times to PM messages like this to you but you must have turned off the PM option from me. So that option is out. I fear that if I don’t tell you this, you’ll continue making conversations unpleasant. So I had to bring it to this thread.

I fear that you misunderstand my initial apology. I was apologizing for addressing you that way in public (which I’m doing again). This is not to be confused with an acceptance of your rude conduct. I was hopeful that AK's feedback would be effective in altering your approach, but it wasn’t. I fear that you will also take AK's last post as another “acceptance” of how you treat others in you posts. That idea is just not true. It’s not acceptable to many people (I’ve heard multiple people give this type of feedback about you). Of course, you are free to say what you want. I'm just asking, for the good of this board, that you raise your level of social graces when you post.

Thanks,

Dr. T

I'm doing the best I can, Dr. T., so perhaps you should be more forgiving, instead of expecting me to "rise" to "your" level.

And btw, for a mental exercise, hypothetically speaking, who do you think is the more rude person:

Someone who basically calls somebody rude and obnoxious

or

Someone who doesn't say anything "personal" against someone else, regardless of whatever they say.

Or in other words, though you reviled against me, I will not revile against you, because that is simply not acceptable at my level.

[Dr T]

Ray,

I agree. You are trying. I still read others frustrations, so things aren't great (yet). I'm learning to put up with your remarks. I just didn't want you to take it as being OK with people. That's all. Thank you for taking the higher ground and being a bigger man than me. I really look forward to what I can learn from you. I just hope I can learn without being beaten up…

With reverence,

Dr. T

[Ray]

Ray,

I agree. You are trying. I still read others frustrations, so things aren't great (yet). I'm learning to put up with your remarks. I just didn't want you to take it as being OK with people. That's all. Thank you for taking the higher ground and being a bigger man than me. I really look forward to what I can learn from you. I just hope I can learn without being beaten up…

With reverence,

Dr. T

While I am not a perfect person, I can make the following promises based on the person I already am:

1) I will never try to insult you for being the person you already are, and

2) I will never try to make you feel bad for being the person you choose to be, and

3) I will never try to tell you that you should be a better person than the person you choose to be.

However, I will say a few things from time to time about the way I think "we" should be, and I will also share some things I have learned from the "one" I am trying to be.

Or in other words, while I will never say anything against you personally, I will tell you how I think we should be and the "one" I am trying to be, but that is simply what I believe and how I am trying to be.

And btw, those promises also apply to anyone else I encounter along my way.

Now can we please get back to talking about "Him" instead of me and other people?

Or better yet, instead of simply talking "about" Him, maybe we should learn about Him from Him.

[Dr T]

Respect to you for that post Ray.

Thanks

[Guest ApostleKnight]

While I am not a perfect person, I can make the following promises based on the person I already am:

1) I will never try to insult you for being the person you already are, and

2) I will never try to make you feel bad for being the person you choose to be, and

3) I will never try to tell you that you should be a better person than the person you choose to be.

If you think I or Dr. T wanted to insult/make you feel bad/tell you to be better in our posts...that's just plain wrong. We were discussing effective communication, not the worth of souls. Whatever.

Now can we please get back to talking about "Him" instead of me and other people?

Or better yet, instead of simply talking "about" Him, maybe we should learn about Him from Him.

I don't get it Ray. What you're saying is, "It's useless to just talk 'about' Christ, so let's just get to learning about him from him."

In other words, praying, right? So why start this thread? I don't get it, I really don't. Your thread title was "I think we should talk about Jesus," yet according to you all you want is to stop everyone talking about him and have everyone just pray or something. Then why would you start this topic?

Maybe it's because I have a headache right now (a bad one), but I just don't get where you're coming from and it's slightly frustrating. I mean, your original post (if I remember right) was a laundry list of Bible Dictionary entries or scriptures or whatever...but if we go on what your last post said, you'd disagree with yourself for just "talking" about Jesus and would instead tell yourself to go pray to him instead. Not to mention your lecture to me about not taking the words of others and having to go straight to the source for knowledge. So why should we take your words? And if we're not supposed to take your words, why write them? You've just got me confused, and while I'm not gonna' waste a whole lot of time trying to figure it out, maybe you should re-check the reason you started this thread and cue the rest of us in on it.

Which is it?

[Ray]

ApostleKnight,

If you’ll go back and read post 24 of this thread, which you will find in my words on page 2, you will see that I gained a different idea than I had when I started this thread.

Or, to rephrase what I said and have continued to say after I shared my thoughts in that post…

While I do believe we should learn from God while sharing our thoughts with Him, I also believe we should share our thoughts about how to get Faith from Him.

Or in other words, instead of simply talking about God or what we believe God has revealed to us, I think we should primarily focus on talking about how others can get to know Him… which is by receiving our Faith from Him.

Or in other words, I now think we should, in order of importance (although they are closely connected):

1) Receive Faith from God, personally, to help us to know who He is and what He wants from us.

2) Share our ideas of how to get Faith, or how we can truly know God and what He wants from us

3) Share the ideas we have learned from God with others who want to know Him. (scriptures)

And btw, before, when I wrote what I wrote in post 1, those steps were not as clear in my mind… and I think I was thinking “step 3” would suffice for others who don’t know Him.

Or in other words, when I post from now on, I’m going to be focusing even more on sharing my ideas about how to get Faith from God… more than talking “about” God and His scriptures… because those writings mean nothing to those who don’t know Him or how they can get to know Him.

And btw, keep hangin in there, buddy, because I am still not a perfect person. :)

[mdb]

Jesus is the person of God that can be seen, the Angel of the Lord, the "eternal" Son of God (no beginning, no end).

Jesus is the blessed eternal God, Savior, Redeemer, Lord of Lords, Emmanuel (God with us). He is the Son of Man, the Son of God, my Lord and my God – the only true God, not one of countless gods, not created but eternal as the Scriptures say.

Elohim said there are no other gods beside Him (see Scriptural referenced below). He knows not one. If Jesus was "a" god apart from the Father, wouldn’t even his Father (elohim) know that he was “a” god? Is not the Father all knowing?

“Thus says the Lord [yhwh], the King of Israel,

And his Redeemer, the Lord [yhwh] of hosts:

‘I am the First and I am the Last;

Besides Me there is no God [elohim].

Isaiah 44:6

Do not fear, nor be afraid;

Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?

You are My witnesses.

Is there a God [elowha] besides Me?

Indeed there is no other Rock;

I know not one.’ ”

Isaiah 44:8

References

one God: Deut 6:4; 32:39; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,18,21,22; 46:9; Joel 2:27; Mark 12:29; 1 Cor 8:6; 1 Tim 2:5

only true God: Gen 2:4; Deut 6:4; Ps 90:2; Isaiah 43:10; 45:5,21; Jer 10:10; Jn 17:3; 6:27; 1 Cor 8:6; Eph 1:17; 1 Pet 1:2; 2 Pet 1:16