Illegal Immigration

[luckynumbersleven]

the issue of unenforced laws is an interesting one.

how many supposedly christian people speed on the roads regularly?

and dare i say it:

how many married LDS couples commit sodomy (and if you read the legal definition you'll get it) on a regular basis - which is a criminal offense in many states (incl. Utah - even between consenting opposite sex married couples!) - and therefore is in violation of the commandment that we obey the laws of the land?

in the end, we all pick n choose what we will and will not obey - like it's okay to go at 70mph in a 65mph zone, gamble in vegas if it's just quarter slot machines, do as we please in our bedrooms so long as both consent, not work on a sunday but still have our businesses open (i.e. make a profit - still work in my op) etc

[Traveler]

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If for whatever reasons – of necessity – you and your family become refugees: what would you expect from those that have far more than they need? What would you do for your family’s survival? If you were desperate, would you break any laws, especially laws that were not being enforced?

I wouldn't expect that they provide for my family when they have their own family that is not being provided for.

Yes, there are lots of affluent Americans, but there is also a sizeable portion who are liveing at or under the poverty line.

As I asked before, how are we going to decide who to help? Do you think we should help everyone in the world who is impoverished?

I believe that everyone should always help those that they can.

Now I would also like to be clear in what help is. Help is seldom responding to a sympthom instead of a cause. This is the great problem with our wealfair system. I started this thread because none of the opinions I have seen seem to address the problem of refugees coming to our country in increasing numbers. Responding to refugees when they arrive at your door step is not as smart as determining why refugees are leaving their homes and doing something about that. If we can help them fight the cause of their leaving then we will make a difference - otherwise we will only make the problem worse. So far I do not believe very many seem to care why refugees are coming.

I talked to someone today that wants to send armed troops to the border. So I asked if they expected our armed troops to shoot to kill 12 and 13 year old unarmed children. I said that I would rather be shot myself that to do such a thing and if I was called to the border I would not shoot any unarmed refugee. I am not sure what some of the rest of you would do???

Now I never said the refugees are not a problem - only that treating the sympthoms will only make the problems worse.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

the issue of unenforced laws is an interesting one.

how many supposedly christian people speed on the roads regularly?

and dare i say it:

how many married LDS couples commit sodomy (and if you read the legal definition you'll get it) on a regular basis - which is a criminal offense in many states (incl. Utah - even between consenting opposite sex married couples!) - and therefore is in violation of the commandment that we obey the laws of the land?

in the end, we all pick n choose what we will and will not obey - like it's okay to go at 70mph in a 65mph zone, gamble in vegas if it's just quarter slot machines, do as we please in our bedrooms so long as both consent, not work on a sunday but still have our businesses open (i.e. make a profit - still work in my op) etc

Just to be clear I am not advocating that any law be delibertly broken. What I am calling to account is blaiming someone as a criminal for not following laws that are not being inforced. If the laws not being inforced then we should look to those in trusted position that issued orders to ignor the law before we look to those that broke the law.

Let me add a story here: I have a friend that married a lady from a foreign country. She applied for citizenship and was granted. They have been living as good citizens in our fine country. But the problem is that the mother of the wife is in ill health and is dying. They wanted to bring this lady the the USA to take care of her. What they found is that the law and red tape makes it almost impossible to get this poor dying lady here where they can help her. People without good health are not high pirorities for coming. They were advised by several government officials that what they should do is bring the mother-in-law to the USA illegally through Mexico. It is much easier to get forgiveness than permission.

There is a lot more broken here that many of us are willing to address.

The Traveler

[boyando]

Ok, my two cents....

I would be in the line to help get a bill signed to help out the immagrants who are working in this country...those who are trying to be good citizens, who pay taxes and contribute to our society. And I think that something really needs to be done to help those who are here to work...to better themselves and their families. So many jobs are filled by illegals who are willing to work for very little pay. Jobs that others don't want to do. Yet these jobs are vital for our economy. It is sad that they ( the illegals) get exploited and treated like garbage... it shouldn't happen. But our govenment doesn't care about something that doesn't effect them personally. Look at the meth problem we had and have had here in the west..... they turned their backs on it casue it wasn't a problem on their side of the nation. Once it got out of control and hit the streets in the east.... THAN it was a problem.

Those who veto the immigration bills don't have to deal with any of the problems...they sit back in their cushie chairs and don't have to worry about Joe Blow down the street, cause it doesn't effect them YET.

Lindy:

As always your thoughts are very well thought out. Although I think that the first thing to do is

close the border. If I might barrow some thing that a local man asking for my vote said, “if the bath

tub is over flowing you don’t mop the floor before you turn off the bath”.

I work with a lot of illegal emigrants and love most of them. But I think that we need too start

with enforcing the laws that are out there while figuring a way to cut through the red tape so that

we can still be Christ like and help those in need.

What does amaze me is how so many people think that it is compassionate to leave things the

way they are now.

I maybe out of line here, but I think that maybe it should be up to we members of the Lords

Church help close the borders and find a way to cut through the red tape. I can’t see the Church

itself doing so because of the politics involved. But we can help in other ways .

And how much longer are we going to call them Lamanite’s instead of Nephite’s? Thanks again

for giving me a chance to put my two cents in. - Allmosthumble

[ALatterDaySaint]

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I think you're absolutley right Lindy! And I say we react to these "scum" in the way the Lord would deal with them!!! And by that I mean, why not learn some basic words in their language too?

Lindy never used the word 'scum'... that was your word.

I salute you Captian Obvious. No, really, it was an example of sarcasim. I used the word scum because that was sort of the spirit I was getting by the way some of the posts were written about them "not learnin the language" and such. I was not quoting Lindy.

But nice to see that slander is not allowed here so good looking out friend. :)

[Lindy]

<div class='quotemain'>

The Russions- the Bosnians who come over at least have the ##### to learn, they put forth an effort in my area to make a difference.

The hispanics ARE very hard working people (those who work) .... no doubts about that... I know they send a lot of money home to family to live on. Here they live 3 or 4 families to a home sometimes..... than take the money that their children make working the fields and add it to their earnings. A lot goes on in different areas that people don't realize. I'm just tired of the lack of respect shown to the country who houses them and feeds them.

I think you're absolutley right Lindy! And I say we react to these "scum" in the way the Lord would deal with them!!! And by that I mean, why not learn some basic words in their language too? My reaction a lot of times has been first suprise, then slight dumbfoundness, then humor and they either begin to speak to me in their language OR they start "respecting me" and blast off in english conversation with suprising skill.

A lot of these "rude" forieners actually do know english. So when you're bad mouthing them to a co-worker about them "Refusing to learn the language" Trust me, they hear (and understand) every word of it and THAT may be why they pretend to not know english because they get a kick of watching your face turn read.

Yes, lets deal with these people as they aught to be delt with. Lets kill them with kindness!Hey hold your horses bucko........ I never said "scum" (thanks Shan for helping clarify that :) ) I never used any slur to describe them but illigals... I think that's about as rough as I got. And I DO know a few things in spanish..... AND german ... see I lived in Germany for 3 years.... I LEARNED ENOUGH TO GET BY because I lived in someone else's country. I didn't think it is asking too much for someone to learn the language of the area they are living in.... maybe it IS asking too much.... You must live in an area where the immigrants know english and respect you enough to use it.... that's great... I'm glad for you. You probably don't have to deal with those who point and grunt at you while they talk to others in their own language.

OHHHHH I am in a mood....... Why would you even THINK that I would be so crase as to think I would bad mouth them to a co worker like that? THAT would be rude!!!!! And the only time my face turns red is when they talk about ME not thinking I can understand what they are saying.....And NO NO NO.... in my area ..there are a lot who DO NOT KNOW english.... comprendo? THAT is why they have the 4 year olds translate for them, or point and grunt. ( I do take that opportunity to say the word in english to try to help them understand it has a word association) You know if they just TRIED I would respect that so much more and life would be glorious.... and the ducks would dance in the streets....

Let me tell you a little story...... When we lived in Germany.... I had my children with me at the Marketplatz for some fun and shopping. I needed to ask for some help to find something, and turned and found an older gentleman who was standing close to me talking to some American GI's..... one of the guys was asking him directions to somewhere.... the man spoke very nicely back to him in German telling him he was sorry but he didnt' speak english.... I thought.... oh boy...I'm screwed...cause my german isn't all that great and I only can speak a little. So I asked in in my pathetic german if he could help me..... and he answered me in perfect english....... I was taken aback and asked him why he told the guys in front of me he didn't speak english..... he told me it was because they wouldn't even try to speak german..... I tried.... as bad as it was... I made the attempt...we both laughed, and he gave me perfect instructions on how to find what I was looking for.

Don't assume I hate people.... I dislike the attitudes.... not the people in general. And NEVER would I use the word SCUM to describe anyone but the lowest sort of life form I could think of. hmmmmm my ex maybe? LOL.... no, he even crawled out of the bottom of the barrel a while ago.

And good comments Almosthumble :)

[Lindy]

Traveler.... excellent hypotetical situation... makes us think a little more of what we would do to help others.

Luckysleven...... hate to admit it...but you really did have some real good points too !

Allmosthumble...there are just so much we can do as churchmembers....

[ALatterDaySaint]

'Lindy' And NEVER would I use the word SCUM to describe anyone but the lowest sort of life form I could think of.

Its like you didnt even see the part where I said I was NOT quoting you Lindy.

and I quote myself, "No, really, it was an example of sarcasim. I used the word scum because that was sort of the spirit I was getting by the way some of the posts were written about them "not learnin the language" and such. I was not quoting Lindy.

But nice to see that slander is not allowed here so good looking out friend. "

You see Lindy, others? I did not mean to seam that I was quoting anyone at all. And to follow up Lindy I do understand where you are comming from. I dont put all of any group into one basket since that would be called predjudice. All I can do is "choose the right" as best I can with my understanding of the gospel.

[Lindy]

'Lindy' And NEVER would I use the word SCUM to describe anyone but the lowest sort of life form I could think of.

Its like you didnt even see the part where I said I was NOT quoting you Lindy.

and I quote myself, "No, really, it was an example of sarcasim. I used the word scum because that was sort of the spirit I was getting by the way some of the posts were written about them "not learnin the language" and such. I was not quoting Lindy.

But nice to see that slander is not allowed here so good looking out friend. "

You see Lindy, others? I did not mean to seam that I was quoting anyone at all. And to follow up Lindy I do understand where you are comming from. I dont put all of any group into one basket since that would be called predjudice. All I can do is "choose the right" as best I can with my understanding of the gospel.

Its like you didnt even see the part where I said I was NOT quoting you Lindy.

well, no to be honest I didn't see it until after I had posted.....but the mood I'm in right now.... I'm sorry for taking it out in the post the way I did. Your right.... we should just do the best we can and "choose the right" in everything we do. Sometimes I do need to humble myself a little more and not be so outspoken with word or thought.