Why Would Anyone Who Believed In Christ..

[Kay]

Originally posted by Peace@Feb 28 2004, 09:01 AM

I would just like to ask ...why would those who believe in God, the Bible, and it's teachings ever believe being tolerant and accepting of the 'gay' life style is a good thing?

One may validate Christianity through sincere actions, just as you write: "...believe being tolerant and accepting..."

It is not a question but a vow and a conviction, yes?

For brothers and sisters who honorably love but disagree, I understand. For those who disagree and have yet to get past earlier teachings, let us understand.

We all wish understanding, right? Maybe that's the greater point.

Kay

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Kay+Feb 29 2004, 03:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Kay @ Feb 29 2004, 03:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 28 2004, 09:01 AM

I would just like to ask ...why would those who believe in God, the Bible, and it's teachings ever believe being tolerant and accepting of the 'gay' life style is a good thing?

One may validate Christianity through sincere actions, just as you write: "...believe being tolerant and accepting..."

It is not a question but a vow and a conviction, yes?

For brothers and sisters who honorably love but disagree, I understand. For those who disagree and have yet to get past earlier teachings, let us understand.

We all wish understanding, right? Maybe that's the greater point.

Kay

Yes we must have tolerance for the sinner, not the SIN. Read that quote of mine again....

The Lord does not tolerant the least degree of sin. If you care about those people with a Christian heart....you must hate the sin and do whatever you can to let them know it isn't right.

[Holdyourfire]

Originally posted by Peace+Feb 28 2004, 05:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Feb 28 2004, 05:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -curvette@Feb 28 2004, 01:31 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 28 2004, 01:21 PM

And as for picking and choosing..you already seem to be doing a lot of that...so why ask?

Because I DO pick and choose. I combine the things I perceive to be from the "spirit" with the things that make sense to me from the physical world (ie: science.) I don't base all of my opinions solely on the often contradictory scriptures...

The scriptures...in principle....never, ever contradict.....

It is only those who don't understand them...that think they find contradictions...seriously.

I agree. Read some of these "non-contradictory" scriptures.

www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

In reading these I feel the devine guidence of God leading me back to him. I'ts like his hand is in mine. I just wish he would stop tripping me, then laughing and then saying, "Stop falling down" ...trip...*snicker*

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Holdyourfire+Feb 29 2004, 09:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Holdyourfire @ Feb 29 2004, 09:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Feb 28 2004, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by -curvette@Feb 28 2004, 01:31 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 28 2004, 01:21 PM

And as for picking and choosing..you already seem to be doing a lot of that...so why ask?

Because I DO pick and choose. I combine the things I perceive to be from the "spirit" with the things that make sense to me from the physical world (ie: science.) I don't base all of my opinions solely on the often contradictory scriptures...

The scriptures...in principle....never, ever contradict.....

It is only those who don't understand them...that think they find contradictions...seriously.

I agree. Read some of these "non-contradictory" scriptures.

www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

In reading these I feel the devine guidence of God leading me back to him. I'ts like his hand is in mine. I just wish he would stop tripping me, then laughing and then saying, "Stop falling down" ...trip...*snicker*

For starters those contradictory breakdowns were vague, general, and once again as most scoffers very unorganized. Let me ask you one thing, you actually believe that God is tripping you up and then laughing? You've got to be joking. So God sorrows for all of us, weeps when we disobey, yet he also causes it? Hmmm. Maybe you should try changing your perception on God. Anything that would make you think that he is amused by your "tripping", is not of light...or truth. The Lord mearly allows us to be tested. And we would do well not to question how he gives out his blessings. If you are righteous and obedient, struggle IS a blessing. It is the refiners fire that makes you like your Father in Heaven. Pressure defines us, it rids us of our impurities, it helps us understand joy.

[Holdyourfire]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Feb 29 2004, 10:27 PM

For starters those contradictory breakdowns were vague, general, and once again as most scoffers very unorganized. Let me ask you one thing, you actually believe that God is tripping you up and then laughing? You've got to be joking. So God sorrows for all of us, weeps when we disobey, yet he also causes it? Hmmm. Maybe you should try changing your perception on God. Anything that would make you think that he is amused by your "tripping", is not of light...or truth. The Lord mearly allows us to be tested. And we would do well not to question how he gives out his blessings. If you are righteous and obedient, struggle IS a blessing. It is the refiners fire that makes you like your Father in Heaven. Pressure defines us, it rids us of our impurities, it helps us understand joy.

No, God is not tripping me up and laughing. That was just a sarcasm used to illustrate the difficulty of having God saying contradictory things.

Example:

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

Me: I like this God.

Then I read JER 13:14

-And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Me: So, which is it? If I really believe in the Bible I could conclude that God is bi-polar. If I am to understand the nature of God in order to become more like him....Well, you see my problem. I guess I will seek to become a very tender and loving axe murderer.

Peace says: Those verses in principal do not contradict.

Me: What!?

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Holdyourfire@Mar 1 2004, 02:25 AM

For starters those contradictory breakdowns were vague, general, and once again as most scoffers very unorganized. Let me ask you one thing, you actually believe that God is tripping you up and then laughing? You've got to be joking. So God sorrows for all of us, weeps when we disobey, yet he also causes it? Hmmm. Maybe you should try changing your perception on God. Anything that would make you think that he is amused by your "tripping", is not of light...or truth. The Lord mearly allows us to be tested. And we would do well not to question how he gives out his blessings. If you are righteous and obedient, struggle IS a blessing. It is the refiners fire that makes you like your Father in Heaven. Pressure defines us, it rids us of our impurities, it helps us understand joy.

No, God is not tripping me up and laughing. That was just a sarcasm used to illustrate the difficulty of having God saying contradictory things.

Example:

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

Me: I like this God.

Then I read JER 13:14

-And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Me: So, which is it? If I really believe in the Bible I could conclude that God is bi-polar. If I am to understand the nature of God in order to become more like him....Well, you see my problem. I guess I will seek to become a very tender and loving axe murderer.

Peace says: Those verses in principal do not contradict.

Me: What!?

You are creating something out of nothing. First of all you must idenitfy what that scripture pertains to. He is good to all in the sense he gives us the opportunity to seek him and have truth. That he will bless as he sees fit. Those scriptural references(at least the later) is to show that God WILL NOT BE MOCKED. It is not our place to question the reasoning behind those things which do occur. The problem with the Bible is that it has been read for so long without the companionship of the BOM, that the plain and simple truths, which aid our understanding, that false impressions of scripture have been a constant. A negative one at that. God will punish those, and only those who are unrepentant. He cursed the Seed of Laman and Lemuel, the Jews...look at all the hardship, because they rejected the Messiah and they rejected God. Now that being said, even someone who is repentant has natural consequences both temporal and spiritual that occur upon wrong doing, but they in no way are contradictory to the nature of God. If we are not witness to His wrath upon the unrepentant, how shall we know how to follow him and seek his compassion? Good question though.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Holdyourfire+Feb 29 2004, 08:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Holdyourfire @ Feb 29 2004, 08:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Feb 28 2004, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by -curvette@Feb 28 2004, 01:31 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Feb 28 2004, 01:21 PM

And as for picking and choosing..you already seem to be doing a lot of that...so why ask?

Because I DO pick and choose. I combine the things I perceive to be from the "spirit" with the things that make sense to me from the physical world (ie: science.) I don't base all of my opinions solely on the often contradictory scriptures...

The scriptures...in principle....never, ever contradict.....

It is only those who don't understand them...that think they find contradictions...seriously.

I agree. Read some of these "non-contradictory" scriptures.

www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

In reading these I feel the devine guidence of God leading me back to him. I'ts like his hand is in mine. I just wish he would stop tripping me, then laughing and then saying, "Stop falling down" ...trip...*snicker*

<span style=\'font-family:Geneva\'>Principles!!!!

Read my post you quoted...

[Holdyourfire]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 1 2004, 03:02 AM

You are creating something out of nothing. First of all you must idenitfy what that scripture pertains to. He is good to all in the sense he gives us the opportunity to seek him and have truth. That he will bless as he sees fit. Those scriptural references(at least the later) is to show that God WILL NOT BE MOCKED. It is not our place to question the reasoning behind those things which do occur. The problem with the Bible is that it has been read for so long without the companionship of the BOM, that the plain and simple truths, which aid our understanding, that false impressions of scripture have been a constant. A negative one at that. God will punish those, and only those who are unrepentant. He cursed the Seed of Laman and Lemuel, the Jews...look at all the hardship, because they rejected the Messiah and they rejected God. Now that being said, even someone who is repentant has natural consequences both temporal and spiritual that occur upon wrong doing, but they in no way are contradictory to the nature of God. If we are not witness to His wrath upon the unrepentant, how shall we know how to follow him and seek his compassion? Good question though.

Porter: "You are creating something out of nothing."

Me: And you, are looking at a mountain and calling it a mole hill.

The examples I gave are what they are. You seem to see a vague outline or fuzziness to the scriptures I quoted while I take them at face value and in context. -You know "the plain and simple truth". Call me crazy.

You also said: "It is not our place to question the reasoning behind those things which do occur". And: "And we would do well not to question how he gives out his blessings. If you are righteous and obedient, struggle IS a blessing. It is the refiners fire that makes you like your Father in Heaven. Pressure defines us, it rids us of our impurities, it helps us understand joy."

Me: I cannot believe in a god that fears the questions of his supposed children. I will question EVERYTHING in the heavens and on earth untill I get the facts.

You seem to be coming from the belief that you are a shamefull, unworthy and lowly creation of God. I say the world will reflect your belief back to you. I hope you are enjoying the refiners fire, and all the suffering/joy that god is heaping upon you. I've seen you in testimony meetings. You stand up and list all of the negative things that have happened in your life the previous month and attribute it all to Gods testing you. Yet you never seem to graduate or rise above it because you have accepted that it is your place in the scheme of things. It is the same testing over and over and over. It's a blessed miracle.! Praise God!

Frankly I just don't get this so called omnipotent -bipolar -all wise being that I am supposed to want to live with forever.

I don't believe in that God. I cannot believe in that God. If I find that this God is indeed my creator, well he can shove it! I'll take the bullet train to his hell -I.E. to bask in some more refiners fire/joy.

[Ray]

God is a perfect parent. He blesses us when we do good things, and He disciplines us when we do bad things. And why does He discipline us? For our benefit, so that we will better understand the consequences of our actions.

It’s one thing to do something bad because we don’t know any better, and it’s another thing to do something bad when we know exactly what we’re doing. God will give us every opportunity to learn His will, and He will always help us overcome any tendency we have to do something bad, but we must sincerely want His help, and ask for it.

Mercy is only given to those of us who rely upon God and His power to help us overcome our weaknesses. Everyone else will receive justice, because God will not be mocked, or in other words, God will not be fooled by our pretensions to follow Him. If we rely upon God to help us overcome our weaknesses, we will overcome them. Through the power of the atonement, and the power of God, we can do anything.

If you’re rebellious toward God, and you do things contrary to His will because you really don’t want to do His will, you will reap the consequences of your own actions. But when that happens, it won’t be because you didn’t know what you were doing and what you were getting yourself into. You will be placing yourself in the same situation as Lucifer, who knew exactly what would happen to him if He decided not to follow God and His counsel, and then chose to do his own will anyway.

I think it helps to remember that we are eternal beings. When we die, that is not the end of our existence. If we really don’t want to follow God’s will, we won’t be happy if we find ourselves living among people who do want to follow God’s will. And the people living with God won't have to put up with us. We will end up living somewhere else, where we can do what we want to do, and God will even help us move.

[porterrockwell]

Thanks ray, well put. Furthermore, I would hope that HYF would understand that it is ok to question. But only with a true, honest intent. IF it is in Gest, then there can come no knowledge that will suffice your appetite. We learn line upon line, precept upon precept. Patience and longsuffering are apart of this mortal probation. You have to have faith that God will give you the answers you need provided you search earnestly and with FAITH. If you want to tell God to shove it, that's fine. But just remember this frustration you have is "temporal", even if you don't believe in God...try this. Close your eyes and relax. Think about a place where there is no pain, no struggle. A joyous atmosphere with concourses of angels singing, and God the Father among his children. Imagine the laughter and the enjoyment of being surrounded by those intelligences living a Celestial law. Imagine a pre-existant state where you were one of the choice intelligences to come to earth in the last days, you chose God's plan. You were righteous, now, put your current situation over the picture you just painted. Notice the contrast, granted we are imperfect and in a fallen state. What I try to do is eliminate a little bit of that contrast every day, the further I get into that, the better I feel, and the closer to the Lord I am. I know life can seem tough, but remember this quote,"I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it!" Do you want anything like that picture you painted, the peace, the joy, the feeling of fullfillment....of exhaltation. The opportunity to walk with your Father in Heaven and to have an ETERNAL progression of Knowledge abounding you. I know I do, and somewhere deep down, I know you do to.

[Holdyourfire]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 1 2004, 05:08 PM

Thanks ray, well put. Furthermore, I would hope that HYF would understand that it is ok to question. But only with a true, honest intent. IF it is in Gest, then there can come no knowledge that will suffice your appetite. We learn line upon line, precept upon precept. Patience and longsuffering are apart of this mortal probation. You have to have faith that God will give you the answers you need provided you search earnestly and with FAITH. If you want to tell God to shove it, that's fine. But just remember this frustration you have is "temporal", even if you don't believe in God...try this. Close your eyes and relax. Think about a place where there is no pain, no struggle. A joyous atmosphere with concourses of angels singing, and God the Father among his children. Imagine the laughter and the enjoyment of being surrounded by those intelligences living a Celestial law. Imagine a pre-existant state where you were one of the choice intelligences to come to earth in the last days, you chose God's plan. You were righteous, now, put your current situation over the picture you just painted. Notice the contrast, granted we are imperfect and in a fallen state. What I try to do is eliminate a little bit of that contrast every day, the further I get into that, the better I feel, and the closer to the Lord I am. I know life can seem tough, but remember this quote,"I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it!" Do you want anything like that picture you painted, the peace, the joy, the feeling of fullfillment....of exhaltation. The opportunity to walk with your Father in Heaven and to have an ETERNAL progression of Knowledge abounding you. I know I do, and somewhere deep down, I know you do to.

PorterRW: "..it is ok to question. But only with a true, honest intent."

ME: Yes, I have an agenda. -I am spending all my time asking questions because I want misleading half truths for answers. I wouldn't want any real truths coming into play to set me on a non-confusing path back to god.

PorterRW: "...try this. Close your eyes and relax. Think about a place where there is no pain, no struggle. A joyous atmosphere with concourses of angels singing, and God the Father among his children. Imagine the laughter and the enjoyment of being surrounded by those intelligences living a Celestial law. Imagine a pre-existant state where you were one of the choice intelligences to come to earth in the last days, you chose God's plan. You were righteous, now, put your current situation over the picture you just painted."

Me: What you said here is merely a religious hand-me-down. You read it, were taught it, and chose to accept it. You and I do not know if it reflects reality. I KNOW you don't know this for sure. And how do I know that? Because Joseph Smith said that if you even saw the glory of the terrestrial kingdom you would kill yourself to get there. And yet here you are talking like you have seen the celestial kingdom and yet you, I assume, are typing this from a physical body.

Your faith is merely you optimisticly standing behind the beliefs you have chosen. Every faith does it yet every faith is different.

And besides I could tell you a similar story but the cast would be Santa Claus, elves, and good little children set in the north pole. I garrantee I could tell it all warm and fuzzy to help you visualize it and hope for it.

What? My story doesn't compare to yours? Oh, thats right your story is based on facts and proven truths.

Listen, Ive been down your road, but in light of recieving "New lines" and "New precepts" I was obliged to pursue a different course. Yet, even in these new precepts, I realize they are merely my choices and hopes based on what I discern is the truth. In this we are the same. I will adjust as new truths come into my understanding.

[porterrockwell]

I was not mocking your questioning. However, I have come across many who only question to ridicule and despise. As far as that little exercise I do, that I was not taught. That was something that I learned to do myself after much study. I to was someone who questioned much of the church. Ask my parents and the people around me. It is amazing that I am even a part of the church today. Just remember what the Lord said "You have not chosen me, I have chosen you." As far as adjusting once more truths are revealed, don't be a "Doubting Thomas". He gives immense blessing for those who seek with faith, and hope....to those who need not see to believe. And I do KNOW what I have said is true. There is no greater gift than that of the Holy Ghost, it is the means by which all truths are made known to us by our Father in Heaven. We actually aren't the same. I know the church is true because of plain and simple truths that have been restored to this earth. I believe in the Plan of Salvation, the Godhead, and that Joseph Smith was called to bring forth the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. IF you truly believe that, then NOTHING beyond that should shake you from the literal gathering of Israel. A house with imperfections can still stand and be made perfect...but if it's foundation is corrupt and imperfect that house will fall. In the same instance of the CoJCoLDS, it's not about the house, it's about the foundation. Satan will do everything in his power, every angle possible, to pervert the means by which truth is restored, and by which the church is built to drag away those who accepted the plain and simple truths. I guess one of my truly great blessings that I think I really take for granted, it that I KNOW WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, that this Church is true and that everything I have learned, and will learn, is going to be provided by the Lord when it is expedient for me to learn. When it fits His will...not mine. Some people aren't born with the knowledge of the truth that I am. For that I am grateful, because without the truth, the world would be a scary, decieving place.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 1 2004, 06:37 PM

don't be a "Doubting Thomas".

Why do people pick on Thomas? Jesus never rebuked Thomas for "doubting." What did the apostles do when Mary Magdelene told them she had seen the Savior resurrected? They didn't believe her. They all doubted. When Jesus did appear to the apostles (Thomas was the only one not there, by the way), THEN they believed. Thomas didn't believe them so Jesus came back a week later and showed himself to Thomas. He didn't tell him to "doubt not" until AFTER he had proved himself to Thomas. Then he expounded on the virtue of having faith without seeing first. Some people need some proof before they can have faith.

[Lindy]

I am really enjoying this thread....thanks to all for the great posts :)....

[Holdyourfire]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 1 2004, 07:37 PM

I was not mocking your questioning. However, I have come across many who only question to ridicule and despise. As far as that little exercise I do, that I was not taught. That was something that I learned to do myself after much study. I to was someone who questioned much of the church. Ask my parents and the people around me. It is amazing that I am even a part of the church today. Just remember what the Lord said "You have not chosen me, I have chosen you." As far as adjusting once more truths are revealed, don't be a "Doubting Thomas". He gives immense blessing for those who seek with faith, and hope....to those who need not see to believe. And I do KNOW what I have said is true. There is no greater gift than that of the Holy Ghost, it is the means by which all truths are made known to us by our Father in Heaven. We actually aren't the same. I know the church is true because of plain and simple truths that have been restored to this earth. I believe in the Plan of Salvation, the Godhead, and that Joseph Smith was called to bring forth the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. IF you truly believe that, then NOTHING beyond that should shake you from the literal gathering of Israel. A house with imperfections can still stand and be made perfect...but if it's foundation is corrupt and imperfect that house will fall. In the same instance of the CoJCoLDS, it's not about the house, it's about the foundation. Satan will do everything in his power, every angle possible, to pervert the means by which truth is restored, and by which the church is built to drag away those who accepted the plain and simple truths. I guess one of my truly great blessings that I think I really take for granted, it that I KNOW WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, that this Church is true and that everything I have learned, and will learn, is going to be provided by the Lord when it is expedient for me to learn. When it fits His will...not mine. Some people aren't born with the knowledge of the truth that I am. For that I am grateful, because without the truth, the world would be a scary, decieving place.

You claim to KNOW the truth without a shadow of doubt. I don't believe you. I KNEW once too. Time and further experience changed that fact. I realized that I was just plain convincing myself.

Here's a fact: You are more receptive to things that align and validate your personal beliefs and the desires of your heart. Your body and mind react appropriately. You experience chills. You feel validated, your conviction is ignited by the words of one or many with shared hopes and desires. Your heart may burn, the emotions rise. The holy ghost is testifying to you. God is with you. You are in the right.

Your hood slightly muffles your cheers as well as your klansmen brothers as the cross ignites. Praise the great white Lord! Beware all seeds of cain!

-------

I am quite sentimental to dogs. I stumbled across a "True Story" television program where a dog becomes lost on a family vacation. The family looks without success. In despair they have to leave and travel home without their beloved pet. The dog is frightened starving and alone in the wilds. One year passes and 800 miles away a skinny, tired, and mangy dog appears on the porch of a house. A small girl with her school lunchbox in hand opens the door to catch her bus and discovers that their dog has come home.

ME: Chills, stiffled sobbing, and tears of joy violating my manly face. The world is beautiful.

The spirit? Yes of course, My God would love animals just like me. Therefore it is the HG.

------

You have been pleading in heartfelt suppliction to God to know, to gain a testimony of the truthfullness of the church. You do this night after night. You study the scriptures. The prayers never leave your thoughts throughout the day. For days, weeks or years you seek this confirmation. One night suddenly you are rewarded. You feel it. A warmth envelops your body. You feel intense love, peace, and comfort. You just know it is true somehow. You cry with joy and thank Allah for blesssing you. Ten years later you honor him by piloting a jet into the WTC.

PorterRW, You say you were favored by being born with some knowledge and insight. Great! Feel free to explain how your experience is unique.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Holdyourfire+Mar 2 2004, 02:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Holdyourfire @ Mar 2 2004, 02:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 1 2004, 07:37 PM

I was not mocking your questioning.  However, I have come across many who only question to ridicule and despise.  As far as that little exercise I do, that I was not taught.  That was something that I learned to do myself after much study.  I to was someone who questioned much of the church.  Ask my parents and the people around me.  It is amazing that I am even a part of the church today.  Just remember what the Lord said "You have not chosen me, I have chosen you."  As far as adjusting once more truths are revealed, don't be a "Doubting Thomas".  He gives immense blessing for those who seek with faith, and hope....to those who need not see to believe.  And I do KNOW what I have said is true.  There is no greater gift than that of the Holy Ghost, it is the means by which all truths are made known to us by our Father in Heaven.  We actually aren't the same.  I know the church is true because of plain and simple truths that have been restored to this earth.  I believe in the Plan of Salvation, the Godhead, and that Joseph Smith was called to bring forth the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times.  IF you truly believe that, then NOTHING beyond that should shake you from the literal gathering of Israel.  A house with imperfections can still stand and be made perfect...but if it's foundation is corrupt and imperfect that house will fall.  In the same instance of the CoJCoLDS, it's not about the house, it's about the foundation.  Satan will do everything in his power, every angle possible, to pervert the means by which truth is restored, and by which the church is built to drag away those who accepted the plain and simple truths.  I guess one of my truly great blessings that I think I really take for granted, it that I KNOW WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, that this Church is true and that everything I have learned, and will learn, is going to be provided by the Lord when it is expedient for me to learn.  When it fits His will...not mine.  Some people aren't born with the knowledge of the truth that I am.  For that I am grateful, because without the truth, the world would be a scary, decieving place.

You claim to KNOW the truth without a shadow of doubt. I don't believe you. I KNEW once too. Time and further experience changed that fact. I realized that I was just plain convincing myself.

Here's a fact: You are more receptive to things that align and validate your personal beliefs and the desires of your heart. Your body and mind react appropriately. You experience chills. You feel validated, your conviction is ignited by the words of one or many with shared hopes and desires. Your heart may burn, the emotions rise. The holy ghost is testifying to you. God is with you. You are in the right.

Your hood slightly muffles your cheers as well as your klansmen brothers as the cross ignites. Praise the great white Lord! Beware all seeds of cain!

-------

I am quite sentimental to dogs. I stumbled across a "True Story" television program where a dog becomes lost on a family vacation. The family looks without success. In despair they have to leave and travel home without their beloved pet. The dog is frightened starving and alone in the wilds. One year passes and 800 miles away a skinny, tired, and mangy dog appears on the porch of a house. A small girl with her school lunchbox in hand opens the door to catch her bus and discovers that their dog has come home.

ME: Chills, stiffled sobbing, and tears of joy violating my manly face. The world is beautiful.

The spirit? Yes of course, My God would love animals just like me. Therefore it is the HG.

------

You have been pleading in heartfelt suppliction to God to know, to gain a testimony of the truthfullness of the church. You do this night after night. You study the scriptures. The prayers never leave your thoughts throughout the day. For days, weeks or years you seek this confirmation. One night suddenly you are rewarded. You feel it. A warmth envelops your body. You feel intense love, peace, and comfort. You just know it is true somehow. You cry with joy and thank Allah for blesssing you. Ten years later you honor him by piloting a jet into the WTC.

PorterRW, You say you were favored by being born with some knowledge and insight. Great! Feel free to explain how your experience is unique.

For one, I am no "klansmen" nor do I affiliate myself with such hateful "congregations" of evil. Every experience is unique in how and when we find the truth through our faith in God. But it is the common, simple, perfect, and unchanging truths that we must all come to know as one faith. I cannot disclose why my experience is unique, it is sacred, and do as ssuch would be to disrespect the gifts I have recieved from on high. Of course anyone can gain conviction for something and in the right setting come to know it as truth, whether it is or not. But we must understand that any man that would kill thousands of innocent people in guile and gest is not of God, but lead by a different hand. I am not speaking of "emotions" when I speak of comfirmation. I am speaking of that spirit that brings both Godly sorrow, and Eternal Joy. It is the Holy Ghost that allows us to discern between truth and lie, good and evil. I am very confident that those men that did what they did on September 11th were never given the opportunity to read James 1:5, and read Moroni 10...and really pray. Truly seeking for the plain and simple truths that make us one in the same nature as Christ. I also did not say I was favored, everyone is givin some very strong blessing, a strength from which they have the opportunity to grow beyond temporal comprehension. All I mean, is that as a younger person I used to believe that I wasn't as blessed as those with great wealth, and status. As I have grown I have come to know that i hav been given a gift, one that many others in my church have also been given. And I cringe to think of what it would be like to be a rich, highly regarded man OF THE WORLD. This would mean not knowing God, being led around by the tempter, the father of all lies. I no longer want that. I want to know my Savior's face when he descends from on high to recieve his Kingdom and fully restore the house of Israel. I am learning daily to stop listening to my carnal instincts, and progress to a level or spirituality that allows my perspective to be like that of Christ's. The only difference is that Christ maintained such a stature in perfection all his days. I have yet to be able to do such, nor will I in the flesh. But it is that faith, and striving to walk like him that will allow me to be exhaulted on high, washed clean by the blood of the Lamb, on that great day when I stand before the Judgement Bar of God. I know it is hard for you to accept a concept such as the Holy Ghost, and that is ok. If you really don't want to know God, then you shouldn't because that union would be fair to neither him nor you. It would all be in vain. But I would encourage you to come to know the truth as you supposedly "had known" in the past. This is the one true Church, the Lord's Kingdom on Earth. Nothing will change that. The truth and the glory of that truth is unchanging and ever growing throughout the hearts of the righteous and faithfull. Submissiveness to the Father, to do according to HIS will is the only way HYF.

[Guest Starsky]

Listen, Ive been down your road, but in light of recieving "New lines" and "New precepts" I was obliged to pursue a different course. Yet, even in these new precepts, I realize they are merely my choices and hopes based on what I discern is the truth. In this we are the same. I will adjust as new truths come into my understanding.

I really doubt you have been down the same road as anyone else...all our roads are as individual as we are each individuals...unlike anyone else.

You may think you have come to some point of 'enlightenment' but when you really wake up...you will see that your 'light' only came from a 100 watt light bulb...

Really...because I have been close to down the same road you are now on...and believe me...when you get to the end of that road...you won't be where you thought you would be.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 2 2004, 10:57 AM

Listen, Ive been down your road, but in light of recieving "New lines" and "New precepts" I was obliged to pursue a different course. Yet, even in these new precepts, I realize they are merely my choices and hopes based on what I discern is the truth. In this we are the same. I will adjust as new truths come into my understanding.

I really doubt you have been down the same road as anyone else...all our roads are as individual as we are each individuals...unlike anyone else.

You may think you have come to some point of 'enlightenment' but when you really wake up...you will see that your 'light' only came from a 100 watt light bulb...

Really...because I have been close to down the same road you are now on...and believe me...when you get to the end of that road...you won't be where you thought you would be.

Amen to that Peace.

[Ray]

When someone receives an assurance of the truth from God, they know it has come from God. It's different than the feeling you get when you see something good or figure something out for yourself. Think about how it feels to know that someone else loves you, when you know that your knowledge of their love hasn't been generated by your own mind. The love of God is the most perfect love of all. :)

I recommend that you first find out that God loves you. When you know that, you will then be more willing to find out what He wants you to know and do.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Mar 1 2004, 07:41 PM

I am really enjoying this thread....thanks to all for the great posts :)....

*big grin*

You are fun Lindy. :)

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Ray@Mar 2 2004, 01:03 PM

When someone receives an assurance of the truth from God, they know it has come from God. It's different than the feeling you get when you see something good or figure something out for yourself. Think about how it feels to know that someone else loves you, when you know that your knowledge of their love hasn't been generated by your own mind. The love of God is the most perfect love of all. :)

I recommend that you first find out that God loves you. When you know that, you will then be more willing to find out what He wants you to know and do.

True.

[Holdyourfire]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 2 2004, 10:57 AM

Listen, Ive been down your road, but in light of recieving "New lines" and "New precepts" I was obliged to pursue a different course. Yet, even in these new precepts, I realize they are merely my choices and hopes based on what I discern is the truth. In this we are the same. I will adjust as new truths come into my understanding.

I really doubt you have been down the same road as anyone else...all our roads are as individual as we are each individuals...unlike anyone else.

You may think you have come to some point of 'enlightenment' but when you really wake up...you will see that your 'light' only came from a 100 watt light bulb...

Really...because I have been close to down the same road you are now on...and believe me...when you get to the end of that road...you won't be where you thought you would be.

I have been down that road -in principal.

I was BIC. I was raised in the church by goodly parents to be good, honest, and sincere in all aspects of my life. I was a mormon true blue. I hit all the LDS mile markers in my life, preisthoods, callings, honorable missionary service, temple married, temple attendee.

I was very conscientious about keeping God and the spirit in my life. And yes, I knew it to be true by the Holy Ghost. (I believed it was the Holy Ghost because the church told me what the Holy ghost's wittness is like so that is what I used to label what was true. (Very circular logic when viewed from a nuetral vantage point I might add) I knew Jesus was my savior. I knew Joseph was the prophet of the restoration.

When I say I've walked that road, I'm saying that I understand very well what the LDS church experience is all about. I was the church for thirty years. I KNOW what the holy ghost feels like as the church defines it. I know I've experienced the same feelings that you have experienced while praying, learning, listening to "inspired" speakers, bearing testimonies, hearing testimonies, teaching the gospel, and blessing the sick with my own hands, etc etc.

You are going to conclude anyway that my experiences were coming from some other source than God because I am no longer active in the LDS church. If so, I would have to conclude that your holy spirit experiences need to be examined as well, since satan it seems can imitate the Holy ghost so well. Am I to assume that it was satan all along in my experiences? That god forsook me in my honest yearnings? That my burning busom was somehow different than the person's sitting next to me as we heard inspiring testimonies about Jesus? Not likely.

I've had to concluded that what the LDS church calls the Holy ghost and it's methods, is just not a reliable indicator of Gods truths.

[Jenda]

Your post is interesting, Holdyourfire. I am not LDS, but I am RLDS, and there are people who leave our church who claim similar things. Except their testimonies are much stronger, meaning they have experienced extremely intense spiritual manifestations of the spirit.

One woman left and wrote a book, an exposee of our church. In it, she claimed that she had been part of a very charismatic group which spoke in tongues, experienced many physical healings, spoke under the influence of the Spirit, among other things. Then she claimed that she became friends with some people who opened her eyes to the truth and she stated that she had come to understand that she had been in spiritual bondage all that time.

My question is (I guess I have two questions). One, when you are experiencing manifestations of the Spirit such as what I wrote of, how can you consider yourself in spiritual bondage???? Two, when you are experiencing what the scriptures call gifts of the spirit, how can that be wrong? And even if you decide that you have found a better truth out there, how can people producing good fruit be wrong?

Luke 9:49-50 (IV)

49 And John spake and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid not any; for he who is not against us is for us.

Are you one to go against what Jesus said just because of your personal feelings? You better rethink that position because you are putting yourself in a position of judgment, and by whatsoever judgment you render, the same will be meted back to you.

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 3 2004, 06:56 AM

Your post is interesting, Holdyourfire. I am not LDS, but I am RLDS, and there are people who leave our church who claim similar things. Except their testimonies are much stronger, meaning they have experienced extremely intense spiritual manifestations of the spirit.

One woman left and wrote a book, an exposee of our church. In it, she claimed that she had been part of a very charismatic group which spoke in tongues, experienced many physical healings, spoke under the influence of the Spirit, among other things. Then she claimed that she became friends with some people who opened her eyes to the truth and she stated that she had been in spiritual bondage.

My question is (I guess I have two questions). One, when you are experiencing manifestations of the Spirit such as what I wrote of, how can you consider yourself in spiritual bondage???? Two, when you are experiencing what the scriptures call gifts of the spirit, how can that be wrong? And even if you decide that you have found a better truth out there, how can people producing good fruit be wrong?

Luke 9:49-50 (IV)

49 And John spake and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid not any; for he who is not against us is for us.

Are you one to go against what Jesus said just because of your personal feelings? You better rethink that position because you are putting yourself in a position of judgment, and by whatsoever judgment you render, the same will be meted back to you.

Great post Jenda. Great questions also. Very thought provoking.

[Guest Starsky]

Being in the church as you have...only shows that no one is exempt from falling away.

You are going to conclude anyway that my experiences were coming from some other source than God because I am no longer active in the LDS church.  If so, I would have to conclude that your holy spirit experiences need to be examined as well,  since satan it seems can imitate the Holy ghost so well.   That my burning busom was somehow different than the person's sitting next to me as we heard inspiring testimonies about Jesus?  Not likely.

I never had the burning of the bosom....I had Christ actually speak with me about my mission and what I was to do to prepare for it financially.

I never had the Holy Ghost give me the warm fuzzies...I had the Light enter the room and words come on the page for me to read that wasn't there for anyone else.

I didn't have what others told me was the Holy Ghost....feelings...I had visions and new information given to my mind and heart...the likes of which I have heard only described by prophets.

So I don't know ...that the road you were on was the same one as I was on...just because you did all the outward things like the masses of LDS.

Am I to assume that it was satan all along in my experiences?  That god forsook me in my honest yearnings?

I don't believe you really understood what other's were experiencing....and that is because it is hard to put into words...the workings of the Spirit.

A positive belief can cause many to assume they have been given the confirmation...but when you really receive it...you won't be able to abandon the ship...believe me...even if you want to because things get rough.

I've had to concluded that what the LDS church calls the Holy ghost and it's methods, is just not a reliable indicator of Gods truths.

It is what you thought the church called the Holy Ghost....that wasn't a reliable indicator of God's truths...

The problem is yours...not the church's nor the Holy Ghost as taught by the prophets.

Listen to what Joseph Smith says is necessary to obtain the gifts you seem to lack:

The other Comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest, and perhaps understood by few of this generation. After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptised for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, ..which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses:

NOTE the 16, 17, and 23 verses:

16 And I will pray th Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever

17 Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth hiim; but ye know him, for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortles: I will come to you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

23 If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Now what is the other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself: and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter: that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God; and this is the estate and place the ancient Saints arrived at when they had glorious visions--Isaiah, Ezekiel, John THE SAINTS who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pages 150-151.)