New Cumorah Thread

[srm]

Antishock said

The Book of Ether, 15:2 illustrates that "nearly two millions " of the Jaredites had their last great battle at the Hill Cumorah. That's a lot of archaeological evidence to support the claims of the Book of Mormon. Has their been a lot of pre-Colombian weaponry found at the site...things like swords and armor?

That is not what the Book of Mormon says. It says that they fought and killed people all across the land. Read Chapter 14 to see this. At the begining of Chapter 15 Coriantumr laments that two million had died. He was not refering to the battle at Ramah (Cumorah). He says this before the battle at Cumorah took place. In fact it was at least 4 years later that the battle at Cumorah took place. It does not say millions died at the last great battle or hundreds of thousands, or tens of thousands or even thousands. In fact the only numbers that we are given in the last great battle tops out at 121 people (52 and 69). granted many had died in the battle but we have no indication whatever that two million (or even 2000) died in that final battle. You have created a strawman that does not hold up to scrutiny.

The second point is moot because as we see there was not a battle where two million people died. But armour, swords and shields does not mean metal. but even if some were metal...what would be left after 2600 years.

The third and final point is that I don't know that the hill in New York is the same hill where this small battle took place. Church leaders beliefs notwithstanding. Can you provide a source in the scriptures or a revelation from the prophet that says it was?

[Paul Osborne]

SRM,

I consider the following sermon by President Romney to be certified as inspiration to the whole Church under the direction of the President of the Church and it confirms the location of the hill Cumorah. The apostles and prophets of Mormonism are agreed in this matter and so should we:

President Marion G. Romney

Second Counselor in the First Presidency

Marion G. Romney, “America’s Destiny,” Ensign, Nov. 1975, 35

"My beloved brothers and sisters, I bear you my personal witness that I know that the things I have presented to you today are true—both those pertaining to past events and those pertaining to events yet to come"

[Guest antishock82003]

That is not what the Book of Mormon says. It says that they fought and killed people all across the land. Read Chapter 14 to see this. At the begining of Chapter 15 Coriantumr laments that two million had died. He was not refering to the battle at Ramah (Cumorah). He says this before the battle at Cumorah took place. In fact it was at least 4 years later that the battle at Cumorah took place. It does not say millions died at the last great battle or hundreds of thousands, or tens of thousands or even thousands. In fact the only numbers that we are given in the last great battle tops out at 121 people (52 and 69). granted many had died in the battle but we have no indication whatever that two million (or even 2000) died in that final battle. You have created a strawman that does not hold up to scrutiny.

1) Morm. 6: 2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

Morm. 6: 4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

Morm. 6: 6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were asacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

Morm. 6: 11 And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

11 And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.

12 And it came to pass that they did gather together all the people upon all the face of the land, who had not been slain, save it was Ether.

13 And it came to pass that Ether did behold all the doings of the people; and he beheld that the people who were for Coriantumr were gathered together to the army of Coriantumr; and the people who were for Shiz were gathered together to the army of Shiz.

14 Wherefore, they were for the space of four years gathering together the people, that <span style=\'color:red\'>they might get all who were upon the face of the land</span>, and that they might receive all the strength which it was possible that they could receive.

15 And it came to pass that when they were all gathered together, every one to the army which he would, with their wives and their children—both men, women and children being armed with weapons of war, having shields, and breastplates, and head-plates, and being clothed after the manner of war—they did march forth one against another to battle; and they fought all that day, and conquered not.

16 And it came to pass that...blah blah blah they killed each other real good.

There can be no doubt that 1) you're wrong, and 2) you're really wrong. It's ok, you can fess up. I've done it. Now it's your turn. I'll concede that the BoM said two million before this battle took place...but it gave the impression there were plenty of people left, and yes, they did fight at the Hill Cumorah. Don't try to wriggle out of this one, it'll just make you look really bad.

The second point is moot because as we see there was not a battle where two million people died. But armour, swords and shields does not mean metal. but even if some were metal...what would be left after 2600 years.

We keep finding ancient artifacts that are as old, if not older than the timeframe you provide...in the ground and in the sea. Google it, you'll know what I mean. So, you're wrong again. Plus, I'm talking about BOTH epic battles...so the timeframes I'm looking at range from what you put (why not?) until 400 a.d. . 1600 years is not much time arcaeologically speaking young padawan.

The third and final point is that I don't know that the hill in New York is the same hill where this small battle took place. Church leaders beliefs notwithstanding. Can you provide a source in the scriptures or a revelation from the prophet that says it was?

Sure:

Marion G. Romney (President of the Church, 1975)- <a href=\'http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates=default.htm=%5BRank+500%5D%28%5BField+general+conference%3Ahill%20cumorah%5D%29=Advanced=relevance-weight=Magazines=%5BXML%5D%5Bkwic%2C0%5D=xhitlist.xsl=first=title%3Bpath%3Bcontent-type%3Bhome-title%3Bhit-context%3Bfield%3Azr%3Bfield%3ARef\' target=\'_blank\'>http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=t...r%3Bfield%3ARef</a>

This is just one talk from conference. When I went to to LDS.ORG and did a search on 'hill' + 'cumorah' I had hit upon hit. There is no doubt, whatsoever, that the Church believes the hill in western NY is the same one in the BoM. I even provided you with a letter from the Office of the First Presidency in the last thread that stated that very thing.

Finally, Mark E. Peterson said without equivocation, "As the fighting neared its end, <span style=\'color:red\'>Mormon gathered the remnant of his forces about a hill which they called Cumorah, located in what is now the western part of the state of New York."

[Cal]

While we are on the Cumorah topic---diverging a little. I was just on a thread talking about all these blessing that come from tithing, and stories of how COINCIDENCE is not really coincidence in the mormon church.

So, since coincidence isn't really coincidence in the mormon church, then I quess it isn't coincidence that on a map, available to JS at the time he wrote the BoM, off the coast of western africa you find the CAMOROS islands whose capital is MORONI. Since that can't be coincidence, according to mormons, then the only logical conclusion is that JS scammed these terms to include in his fabrication called the Book of Mormon.

[Cal]

Anti--you make a very good point about how mormons use "proof". You hear all these faith promoting stories whose purpose is clearly to say "see, there is proof that the LDS church is true". You are correct that the church is desperate to vindicate JS and his stories and the BoM. The LDS church is also desperate to maintain a modicum of credibility with the intellectual world. The church didn't adopt FARMS so that it could say "we don't need proof", you don't need intellectuals to accomplish that goal. Right, Peace?

You really can't have it both ways. You can't say "we don't need proof", and then claim that the BoM is a second witness of Christ. Who needs a second witness if you don't need proof in the first place? Totally disingenuous.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 17 2004, 10:34 AM

While we are on the Cumorah topic---diverging a little.  I was just on a thread talking about all these blessing that come from tithing, and stories of how COINCIDENCE is not really coincidence in the mormon church.

So, since coincidence isn't really coincidence in the mormon church, then I quess it isn't coincidence that on a map, available to JS at the time he wrote the BoM, off the coast of western africa you find the CAMOROS islands whose capital is MORONI. Since that can't be coincidence, according to mormons, then the only logical conclusion is that JS scammed these terms to include in his fabrication called the Book of Mormon.

You play with words Cal. But it only shows you are desperate to deny the truth about JS being a prophet of God doing God's works.

I am sure it is all fear based....maybe you should start searching within yourself for what is motivating you to come here and put out such unbelievable rhetoric.

We all know what the 'historical' journals of some saints said, or what historians have written, and even some 'research' has dug up. But they have done the same thing about everything possible on the planet....so?

Get real....one scientist will say this and another say that ...one historian will say this and another say that....then you have ten years later....the whole thing of both are found to be fouled up....

Look at the history books I grew up with about Kennedy and then look at what is just now being found out about it...

What if all the stuff you quote was just one side of the issue...and ten years from now they find the Gold plates....? You can not depend upon the arm of flesh on spiritual issues.

Look at all the speculation men do over Elvis Presley...Good grief man....the only way you will ever know the truth is to either die or get the Holy Ghost to speak to your heart.

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 17 2004, 10:34 AM

While we are on the Cumorah topic---diverging a little. I was just on a thread talking about all these blessing that come from tithing, and stories of how COINCIDENCE is not really coincidence in the mormon church.

So, since coincidence isn't really coincidence in the mormon church, then I quess it isn't coincidence that on a map, available to JS at the time he wrote the BoM, off the coast of western africa you find the CAMOROS islands whose capital is MORONI. Since that can't be coincidence, according to mormons, then the only logical conclusion is that JS scammed these terms to include in his fabrication called the Book of Mormon.

Cal,

Just because faithful Mormons bear their faith promoting stories in which they feel something was not a coincidence-- doesn’t necessarily make their account true and valid from a full perspective not available to their view. Mormons typically want to be a positive people and express grateful hearts in a spirit of thankfulness and this often means that blessings are attributed to God by such and such means whether they really were or not. Remember, we live and walk by faith and not by sight-- we cannot see the whole picture but are creatures of limited view. We just want to be happy in our God...

As far as Moroni is concerned; you will see him at the judgment bar of God when things will not be well with you because you ridiculed and rejected the prophets and the Book of Mormon. I’m glad I won’t be in your sorry shoes. What are you going to do then?

Paul O

[Guest curvette]

Two Million Jaradites dead in battle...plus their wives and children. This would mean at least four million people dead. I've been mulling this over in my brain and I'm having a problem with the numbers. I pulled up these official statistics of American deaths from US wars since the Revolutionary war over 270 years ago (Just for comparison):

War U.S. Deaths

American Revolution 4,435

War of 1812 2,260

Indian Wars 1,000

Mexican War 1,733

Civil War (North) 140,414

Civil War (South) 74,524

Spanish-American War 385

World War I 53,402

World War II 291,557

Korean War 33,686

Vietnam War 47,410

Gulf War 148

Totals 650,954

This is in at least 36 years of intense battle; well under a million people even factoring in civilian casualties. The Jaradites killed two million, PLUS their wives and children in one big civil war which seemingly lasted six years with a two year reprieve. Then, after Coriantumr saw that two million PLUS had been slain, they kept fighting until he was the only one left. Of course we only have Coriantumr's word for this and Jaradite Kings are notorious exaggerators, but still...

[Cal]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Jan 17 2004, 12:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Jan 17 2004, 12:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 17 2004, 10:34 AM

While we are on the Cumorah topic---diverging a little.  I was just on a thread talking about all these blessing that come from tithing, and stories of how COINCIDENCE is not really coincidence in the mormon church.

So, since coincidence isn't really coincidence in the mormon church, then I quess it isn't coincidence that on a map, available to JS at the time he wrote the BoM, off the coast of western africa you find the CAMOROS islands whose capital is MORONI. Since that can't be coincidence, according to mormons, then the only logical conclusion is that JS scammed these terms to include in his fabrication called the Book of Mormon.

Cal,

Just because faithful Mormons bear their faith promoting stories in which they feel something was not a coincidence-- doesn’t necessarily make their account true and valid from a full perspective not available to their view. Mormons typically want to be a positive people and express grateful hearts in a spirit of thankfulness and this often means that blessings are attributed to God by such and such means whether they really were or not. Remember, we live and walk by faith and not by sight-- we cannot see the whole picture but are creatures of limited view. We just want to be happy in our God...

As far as Moroni is concerned; you will see him at the judgment bar of God when things will not be well with you because you ridiculed and rejected the prophets and the Book of Mormon. I’m glad I won’t be in your sorry shoes. What are you going to do then?

Paul O

Let's see, will that be taking place in the Camoros Islands?

And by the way, I think I am safe in making fun of Moroni all I want, since he is simply a figment of imagination. Besides, if he is a deity, he needs to research his anthropology next time he makes a visit so that he won't be calling Native American Jews.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 17 2004, 03:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 17 2004, 03:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Paul Osborne@Jan 17 2004, 12:13 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 17 2004, 10:34 AM

While we are on the Cumorah topic---diverging a little.  I was just on a thread talking about all these blessing that come from tithing, and stories of how COINCIDENCE is not really coincidence in the mormon church.

So, since coincidence isn't really coincidence in the mormon church, then I quess it isn't coincidence that on a map, available to JS at the time he wrote the BoM, off the coast of western africa you find the CAMOROS islands whose capital is MORONI. Since that can't be coincidence, according to mormons, then the only logical conclusion is that JS scammed these terms to include in his fabrication called the Book of Mormon.

Cal,

Just because faithful Mormons bear their faith promoting stories in which they feel something was not a coincidence-- doesn’t necessarily make their account true and valid from a full perspective not available to their view. Mormons typically want to be a positive people and express grateful hearts in a spirit of thankfulness and this often means that blessings are attributed to God by such and such means whether they really were or not. Remember, we live and walk by faith and not by sight-- we cannot see the whole picture but are creatures of limited view. We just want to be happy in our God...

As far as Moroni is concerned; you will see him at the judgment bar of God when things will not be well with you because you ridiculed and rejected the prophets and the Book of Mormon. I’m glad I won’t be in your sorry shoes. What are you going to do then?

Paul O

Let's see, will that be taking place in the Camoros Islands?

And by the way, I think I am safe in making fun of Moroni all I want, since he is simply a figment of imagination. Besides, if he is a deity, he needs to research his anthropology next time he makes a visit so that he won't be calling Native American Jews.

LOL....I can't wait for 'time' to bring all things to order. Moroni's words alone should convince you of his reality.

Add the Spirit to that and you will have some kind of major reality...no imagination necessary. LOL

[Paul Osborne]

Cal,

Moroni may be a figment of your imagination but he was not to Joseph Smith and the Three Witnesses who swore by God that they saw the angel and the gold plates. There is nothing the world of man can do to disprove the BofM and the restoration. God says the BofM is true and Satan says it is a lie even though he knows it is true. Therefore, you are deceived by one who knows the truth. Go figure.

Paul O

[Guest antishock82003]

Was it Moroni or Nephit that visited Joseph Smith regarding the Hill Cumorah? Jospeh Smith had a few different versions of his story out there so I'm not sure...

[Paul Osborne]

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 17 2004, 03:42 PM

Was it Moroni or Nephit that visited Joseph Smith regarding the Hill Cumorah? Jospeh Smith had a few different versions of his story out there so I'm not sure...

It was Moroni who first appeared to the boy prophet, Joseph Smith. That is the testimony given in our scriptures which has been given to the Church and was ratified by the voice of the Church.

God sent an angel who lived in BofM times to a young 14 year old boy who later told his story to the world. Was it Nephi or was it Moroni?? Which? It was one of those guys in the BofM. Hmmm. Oh yeah, it was MORONI! Aaaahh. :)

Joseph Smith saw many angels in the course of his ministry. There is nothing you can do or say to undo that. History is in the past just as is the light of a star you see at night.

Paul O

[Cal]

Peace and Paul----Oh that's right, the BoM is true because God said it was....and he said that to...JS, the author of the BoM. Now that is circular reasoning at its best.

Usually before people decide to believe something you examin the claimant for indicia of crediblity. Juries are allowed to examine witness for evidence of credibility before deciding who to believe. Why is this? Because rational people are too smart to be the doops for every religion's story line. So the real issue is, 'was JS's story credible'? I doubt that you to have ever really considered the issue.

Anti has brought up one of MANY points that call JS's story into question. When subjected to actual study and consideration JS's credibility is left wanting. Even that 3 witnesses story is weird. If the "plates" were real then why did the witness describe them as being see with their "spiritual" eyes. Who needs spiritual eyes to see what is plainly real? No one seems to need "spiritual" eyes to see the Papyrus that JS claims to have used to translate the Book of Abraham. And considering the fact that Moroni or Nephi or who ever it was supposed to be didn't know that the Native Americans of the western fronteir WEREN'T Jews makes the story even more suspect.

On top of that JS claimed there was a religious revival in 1820. Factually, there was none, thereby throwing the rest of his supposed timeline into disarray. The fact that JS lied about polygamy, and that he had a history of deceiving people into believing he could uncover buried treasure with a rock adds even more doubt to his credibility. The fact that JS would send missionaries off to England, and then steal their wives shows what kind of character he really had. And this is jsut the tip of JS's iceberg of non-crediblity.

Peace you seem to imply that those of us who question the origins of the Mormon church are somehow going to be punished by your God. What just God would start a religion based on lies, give a person a rational mind, and then punish him for using it to uncover the truth of the big lie?

[Paul Osborne]

Cal,

Blah, blah, blah-- you are so intent on destroying our testimonies as you rant about things as if they will ruin the power of the Holy Ghost which gave me my testimony! Are these seeming contradictions more powerful than the Almighty God? Heavens no!

I received my testimony from the Holy Ghost and the testimony given by Joseph Smith doesn’t come without witness. Your apparent confusion between physical and spiritual eyes is very telling, indeed. Go read the scriptures. If you do read them you don’t understand them. You continue to rant, point after point about things that will never break my testimony of the restoration. Were you once a member of the Church? I think you were. I think you are simply exercising your points of contention in order to keep your self down. The Church is true and you know it. And if you don't it is only because you have forgotten what you once knew. There is still time for you to get your testimony back.

Paul O

[Jenda]

Originally posted by curvette@Jan 17 2004, 12:20 PM

Two Million Jaradites dead in battle...plus their wives and children. This would mean at least four million people dead. I've been mulling this over in my brain and I'm having a problem with the numbers. I pulled up these official statistics of American deaths from US wars since the Revolutionary war over 270 years ago (Just for comparison):

War U.S. Deaths

American Revolution 4,435

War of 1812 2,260

Indian Wars 1,000

Mexican War 1,733

Civil War (North) 140,414

Civil War (South) 74,524

Spanish-American War 385

World War I 53,402

World War II 291,557

Korean War 33,686

Vietnam War 47,410

Gulf War 148

Totals 650,954

This is in at least 36 years of intense battle; well under a million people even factoring in civilian casualties. The Jaradites killed two million, PLUS their wives and children in one big civil war which seemingly lasted six years with a two year reprieve. Then, after Coriantumr saw that two million PLUS had been slain, they kept fighting until he was the only one left. Of course we only have Coriantumr's word for this and Jaradite Kings are notorious exaggerators, but still...

I realize that your figuring only included American causalties, but if you look at it from a different nationality's POV, you might see it differently.

Six million Jews killed by Hitler in WWII.

Who knows how many million Japanese killed by Americans in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Those are just two examples. I don't see that it is sooo far fetched.

[Guest antishock82003]

Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Jan 17 2004, 04:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Jan 17 2004, 04:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Jan 17 2004, 03:42 PM

Was it Moroni or Nephit that visited Joseph Smith regarding the Hill Cumorah?  Jospeh Smith had a few different versions of his story out there so I'm not sure...

It was Moroni who first appeared to the boy prophet, Joseph Smith. That is the testimony given in our scriptures which has been given to the Church and was ratified by the voice of the Church.

God sent an angel who lived in BofM times to a young 14 year old boy who later told his story to the world. Was it Nephi or was it Moroni?? Which? It was one of those guys in the BofM. Hmmm. Oh yeah, it was MORONI! Aaaahh. :)

Joseph Smith saw many angels in the course of his ministry. There is nothing you can do or say to undo that. History is in the past just as is the light of a star you see at night.

Paul O

Actually it was JS who said it was Nephi...wasn't it in his own handwriting? It was the Church who later changed his story.

[Guest Starsky]

Peace and Paul----Oh that's right, the BoM is true because God said it was....and he said that to...JS, the author of the BoM. Now that is circular reasoning at its best.

You are the master of circular goings on...Cal. We have already been around this track a dozen times in a dozen ways..LOL

Usually before people decide to believe something you examin the claimant for indicia of crediblity. Juries are allowed to examine witness for evidence of credibility before deciding who to believe. Why is this? Because rational people are too smart to be the doops for every religion's story line. So the real issue is, 'was JS's story credible'? I doubt that you to have ever really considered the issue.

Doubt on. I know more than you can imagine. Inspite of all men's knowledge....without the 'change' from carnal to spiritual...the knowledge will fade away. (1 Cor. 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.)

Charity is the pure love of Christ. (Moroni 7:47)..if you don't believe in Him...you won't ever have knowlege work for you.

Anti has brought up one of MANY points that call JS's story into question. When subjected to actual study and consideration JS's credibility is left wanting. Even that 3 witnesses story is weird. If the "plates" were real then why did the witness describe them as being see with their "spiritual" eyes. Who needs spiritual eyes to see what is plainly real? No one seems to need "spiritual" eyes to see the Papyrus that JS claims to have used to translate the Book of Abraham. And considering the fact that Moroni or Nephi or who ever it was supposed to be didn't know that the Native Americans of the western fronteir WEREN'T Jews makes the story even more suspect.

Strike three...your out. Spiritual eyes because it was given to them by the power of God to view them. How simple can it get? As to the dna ... they have several works which prove one can't know what the dna was back 3 thousand years ago...unless you have a sample from then to put up next to todays jews and native americans. LOL....how many of the native americans have spanish blood inthem, or white blood, or black blood or a hundred other types??? How many generations has this blood been poluted through the 3 thousand years? You couldn't get a pure sample anywhere today. Man...you need to do some of your own thinking...and stop being brain washed ...LOL

On top of that JS claimed there was a religious revival in 1820. Factually, there was none, thereby throwing the rest of his supposed timeline into disarray. The fact that JS lied about polygamy, and that he had a history of deceiving people into believing he could uncover buried treasure with a rock adds even more doubt to his credibility. The fact that JS would send missionaries off to England, and then steal their wives shows what kind of character he really had. And this is jsut the tip of JS's iceberg of non-crediblity.

Actually...you need to do more reading from nuetral sources...there is a book entitled "Joseph Smith the first Mormon...It documents that there was a revival...that several new churches were developed around that time and area. (again you need some real education son)

Peace you seem to imply that those of us who question the origins of the Mormon church are somehow going to be punished by your God. What just God would start a religion based on lies, give a person a rational mind, and then punish him for using it to uncover the truth of the big lie?

You do make up most of your stuff don'tyou? Joseph never lied about polygamy. There was no history (not true history...maybe some gossip and slander, but never real believable history) of JS deceiving people. You really have no idea about what you are dealing with here. LOL

[Paul Osborne]

Antishock,

It makes no difference to me what name was attributed to Moroni in any given document. It is also a fact that names were sometimes coded and used in many different instances in the D&C and if Joseph Smith got the names of Nephi and Moroni mixed up it makes little difference to me. Maybe he was tired. Maybe he was hung over. Maybe he was sick. I don’t care. I’ll go with the account given to the saints:

D&C 27:5

August 1830

“Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim”

B)

Paul O

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 17 2004, 07:41 PM

I realize that your figuring only included American causalties, but if you look at it from a different nationality's POV, you might see it differently.

Six million Jews killed by Hitler in WWII.

Who knows how many million Japanese killed by Americans in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Those are just two examples. I don't see that it is sooo far fetched.

It is, of course, impossible to make an exact comparison, but I thought the US civil war was a pretty good one. It was intense hand to hand combat within a North American terrain. No mass gassings or nuclear bombs to make the casualties exponential.

[Guest antishock82003]

He wasn't tired. He wasn't hung over. He knew exactly what he was saying. His story changed...it's as simple as that. Here ya go:

Early testimony that the name of the angel who appeared to Joseph was Nephi, not Moroni.

"He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 53 (1842)

"Again, when we read the history of our beloved brother, Joseph Smith, and of the glorious ministry and message of the angel Nephi" Millennial Star, vol. 3, p. 71 (1842)

Joseph Smith - "When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." 1851 Pearl of Great Price, p. 41 (1851)

Joseph Smith - "He called me by name, and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p. 753 (1842)

Note: Joseph Smith said the following regarding the T&S, "This paper commences my editorial career. I alone stand responsible for it." Look, as and editor and contributor to his own paper, if the angel's name is wrong, Smith is at fault....no doubt he wasn't drunk producing his paper.

[Guest antishock82003]

Regarding Curvette's post...

Does anyone seriously believe that population growth rates in a pre-industrialized or pre-modern era could have really produced the number of inhabitants in the time period covered in either the Jaredite or Nephite civilizations in order to produce a Final Battle that could kill MILLIONS? GIVE ME A BREAK!!

Also, the idea that a people, after suffering through a war that killed millions would continue to support the political environment that breeds that kind of policy is ridiculous. There is no WAY that women and children and what's left of the men would be like, "Yeah, that's a good idea, forget winter harvest, let's go kill each other some more." What a silly story.

[Cal]

Peace-- I can see that you have no clue as to what "circular reasoning" means, let me elaborate-------- trying to prove the truth of the source by refering to the authority of the source itself. Do you get it now?

DNA--sorry pal, but it is you that needs to research DNA. Even if a group of people have several different mixtures of origins, their genetics reveals markers that are unique to the area of the world they each originate from. Geneticists can identify the markers that appear in Native Americans who have some european ancestors. They can also identifify markers from areas like the middle east. Middle eastern markers don't exist in native american tribes with the frequency that they would if Native Americans had ancient roots in the middle east. The markers that do exist in bounty are those from Siberia and Northwester Asia. It has not been hard to show that all the american tribes originated from Siberia. On top of that, the linquistic markers show the same thing. It is you that needs to do your research on this subject.

JS---there is ample evidence that JS lied about practicing polygamy. He denied it publically and practiced it privately. In fact, when the Nauvoo Expositor threadened to publish that fact, JS had the press destroyed. It's an historical fact. Likewise, it is established by actual court document that JS tried to con people by claiming to be able to find buried treasure with his "seer" stone. One can hardly claim that JS wasn't capable of deception. He also claimed to be able to translate Egyptian, which also turned out to be a lie.

You seem to venerate BLIND faith (the "I feel it so it must be true" thing) to a new level. God gave you a brain. Use it.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jan 17 2004, 07:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jan 17 2004, 07:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Jan 17 2004, 12:20 PM

Two Million Jaradites dead in battle...plus their wives and children.  This would mean at least four million people dead.  I've been mulling this over in my brain and I'm having a problem with the numbers.  I pulled up these official statistics of American deaths from US wars since the Revolutionary war over 270 years ago (Just for comparison):

War                                        U.S. Deaths

American Revolution                        4,435

War of 1812                                    2,260

Indian Wars                                    1,000

Mexican War                                  1,733                                 

Civil War (North)                          140,414

Civil War (South)                            74,524

Spanish-American War                        385

World War I                                    53,402

World War II                                291,557

Korean War                                    33,686

Vietnam War                                  47,410

Gulf War                                              148

Totals                                              650,954

This is in at least 36 years of intense battle; well under a million people even factoring in civilian casualties.  The Jaradites killed two million, PLUS their wives and children in one big civil war which seemingly lasted six years with a two year reprieve.  Then, after Coriantumr saw that two million PLUS had been slain, they kept fighting until he was the only one left.  Of course we only have Coriantumr's word for this and Jaradite Kings are notorious exaggerators, but still...

I realize that your figuring only included American causalties, but if you look at it from a different nationality's POV, you might see it differently.

Six million Jews killed by Hitler in WWII.

Who knows how many million Japanese killed by Americans in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Those are just two examples. I don't see that it is sooo far fetched.

But those huge death counts were the result of a well organized and systematic intent to kill, in the case of the death camps, and also due to a huge and modern weapon, the atom bomb.

Are you suggesting that death camps and bombs were used by the Jaredites?

[Guest Starsky]

What if,....what if they were all ressurrected? What if, with all the wars that happened after this great battle, their instruments of war were gathered up again and used in other wars in other places?

There wouldn't be a whole lot of evidence of what they did there...would there?