New Cumorah Thread

Paul Osborne · January 22, 2004

Originally posted by srm@Jan 21 2004, 11:04 AM

o Marion G. Romney...wasn't he a prophet? And why wouldn't his statement on the Hill Cumorah be considered revelation?
he was not the Prophet...he was not charged with receiving revelation for the whole Church. but more importantly. He was giving a talk. He did not speak of a vision, nor a visitation nor a revelation about the location of Cumorah. You are grasping at straws here. BTW Anti, I concede that I may be wrong and that the hill in New York is the same one. But, I don't concede that we know from the scritpures from a rvelation to the Prophet that it is in New York

President Romney has spoken out on this issue many times. In this case he did so in front of the very President of the Church and with his full blessing. He bore his witness that he knew those things were true and that he knew they were true by the Spirit. That in my view is a witness from a prophet of God and all the prophets were in company and many testimonies have been given to this effect. The mind of the apostles are that the hill is one in the same…

At some point we have to know when our prophets are speaking by the Holy Ghost even when they are not saying, “thus saith the Lord”. Otherwise, we are never going to be under their direction when we don’t want to be because nearly everything they say can be written off as an opinion.

All I can say is you will have to follow your conscience.

Paul O

srm · January 22, 2004

Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Jan 22 2004, 07:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Jan 22 2004, 07:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Jan 21 2004, 11:04 AM

o Marion G. Romney...wasn't he a prophet? And why wouldn't his statement on the Hill Cumorah be considered revelation?
he was not the Prophet...he was not charged with receiving revelation for the whole Church. but more importantly. He was giving a talk. He did not speak of a vision, nor a visitation nor a revelation about the location of Cumorah. You are grasping at straws here. BTW Anti, I concede that I may be wrong and that the hill in New York is the same one. But, I don't concede that we know from the scritpures from a rvelation to the Prophet that it is in New York

President Romney has spoken out on this issue many times. In this case he did so in front of the very President of the Church and with his full blessing. He bore his witness that he knew those things were true and that he knew they were true by the Spirit. That in my view is a witness from a prophet of God and all the prophets were in company and many testimonies have been given to this effect. The mind of the apostles are that the hill is one in the same…

At some point we have to know when our prophets are speaking by the Holy Ghost even when they are not saying, “thus saith the Lord”. Otherwise, we are never going to be under their direction when we don’t want to be because nearly everything they say can be written off as an opinion.

All I can say is you will have to follow your conscience.

Paul O

I understand that Paul. In fact, you may be right. How do you feel about Joseph's view that Zarahemla was in central Anerica? and that those may be the Book of Mormon lands?

Jenda · January 22, 2004

Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Jan 22 2004, 07:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Jan 22 2004, 07:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Jan 21 2004, 11:04 AM

o Marion G. Romney...wasn't he a prophet? And why wouldn't his statement on the Hill Cumorah be considered revelation?
he was not the Prophet...he was not charged with receiving revelation for the whole Church. but more importantly. He was giving a talk. He did not speak of a vision, nor a visitation nor a revelation about the location of Cumorah. You are grasping at straws here. BTW Anti, I concede that I may be wrong and that the hill in New York is the same one. But, I don't concede that we know from the scritpures from a rvelation to the Prophet that it is in New York

President Romney has spoken out on this issue many times. In this case he did so in front of the very President of the Church and with his full blessing. He bore his witness that he knew those things were true and that he knew they were true by the Spirit. That in my view is a witness from a prophet of God and all the prophets were in company and many testimonies have been given to this effect. The mind of the apostles are that the hill is one in the same…

At some point we have to know when our prophets are speaking by the Holy Ghost even when they are not saying, “thus saith the Lord”. Otherwise, we are never going to be under their direction when we don’t want to be because nearly everything they say can be written off as an opinion.

All I can say is you will have to follow your conscience.

Paul O

I would say that he was bearing his testimony, and even if the president of the church disagreed (had a different testimony), he would not take away someone elses testimony.

January 22, 2004

Well...great! Then nobody is ever wrong, and the Church is always True! You've got your bases covered!! Hallelujah! What ever the Spirit testifies to each individual is True for that individual...that's awesome!

You see...if you did a dig at the Hill Cumorah and found no artifacts it wouldn't matter because you always have the excuse of "maybe". MAYBE armor and swords and accoutrements weren't made of metal. MAYBE there were only 121 people there, and their bones dissolved (hoo-boy...). MAYBE the Hill is really in Chile (why not?). MAYBE the story was an allegory. MAYBE if I just create enoughs MAYBES then the issue of Truth will become obscured and the idea of Truth will not be important any longer as long as I FEEEEEEEEL like the Truth is the Truth.

You see...the Hill Cumorah issue IS important along with all other claims made by the Church. Those claims establish a foundation on which the Church can be judged True or False. By obfuscating the True statements by Church leaders all you're doing is creating a diversion from the Real Truth which is...those claims have not been verified and are in fact baseless.

srm · January 22, 2004

Well...great! Then nobody is ever wrong, and the Church is always True! You've got your bases covered!! Hallelujah! What ever the Spirit testifies to each individual is True for that individual...that's awesome!

YOu gots it backwards. Many people (Maybe everyone) can be wrong from time to time or even always, and the Church is true.

You see...if you did a dig at the Hill Cumorah and found no artifacts it wouldn't matter because you always have the excuse of "maybe". MAYBE armor and swords and accoutrements weren't made of metal. MAYBE there were only 121 people there, and their bones dissolved (hoo-boy...). MAYBE the Hill is really in Chile (why not?). MAYBE the story was an allegory. MAYBE if I just create enoughs MAYBES then the issue of Truth will become obscured and the idea of Truth will not be important any longer as long as I FEEEEEEEEL like the Truth is the Truth.

No, the truth is the truth regardless. Jesus is the Christ, The Church is true, Joseph and Gordon and those inbetween are prophets of God. If Joseph was a prophet and he felt that the hill in New York was the original Cumorah but was wrong. the Church can still be true and he can still be a prophet...he's just wrong in his opinion about Cumorah. Or Maybe I'm wrong. that isn't an inditment of the Church or the Gospel it just means that my opinon is incorrect.

You see...the Hill Cumorah issue IS important along with all other claims made by the Church. Those claims establish a foundation on which the Church can be judged True or False.

No, the Church is judged true or false based on a witness of the spirit. The Cumorah issue is irrelevant to a witness that Jesus is the Christ or that the Book of Mormon is true, or that the Church is true. You have created the straw man that the Church Doctrine is that the hill in New York is the same one that was known as Cumorah in ancient times. then, once you have established the straw man you begin to pound it to show the Church is not true. It is a false assumption that it is our doctrine. It is not.

By obfuscating the True statements by Church leaders all you're doing is creating a diversion from the Real Truth which is...those claims have not been verified and are in fact baseless.

I have said all along that those claims (that the hill in New York is the same one that was known as Cumorah in ancient times) have not been verified. By stating that some because Church members (including leaders) feel that the hill in New York the same one that was known as Cumorah in ancient times it is our doctrine...when clearly the opinions have been varied (even among Church leaders) it is you who is obfuscating and your argument is clearly specious.

January 22, 2004

That's fine. You obviously don't see how impossibly screwed up your thinking is. I can't even imagine how to begin to reason with someone who accepts the notion that something can be wrong and True at the same time. That's almost a paradox, and it has no relevance to me.

January 22, 2004

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/01/22...reut/index.html

If a mammoth skull can last so long in the ground, how come tens of thousands of bones wouldn't last in and around the Hill Cumorah?

Cal · January 23, 2004

Paul---so let's see, whenever a General Authority, like Br. Romney, makes a statement to a large group of saints, that is considered revelation and a truth you can rely on? You answered that question pretty clearly.

President Joseph Fielding Smith made the statement (not once but many times), "man will never walk on the moon" and he was the president of the Q of 12 at the time.

How are we supposed to believe in your assertion about Br. Romney, when some things said by GA's under the same circumstances turn out not to be true?

Paul Osborne · January 23, 2004

SRM,

I don’t know where Zarahemla is and it may be that Joseph Smith had his ideas and talked about them-- even wrote them down. But, I do feel quite strong about President Romney’s testimony and I believe him. If President Romney did bear a false testimony about Cumorah he will have to answer for that, but I trust he was under the influence of the Holy Ghost-- so my belief in him and the other apostles and prophets feels pretty safe.

I agree with Antishock that the Cumorah issue is a core matter pertaining to the claims of the restoration. I don’t know where the evidence is anymore than President Bush knows where the weapons of mass destruction are in Iraq. I’m sorry if my attitude aggravates Antishock but my religion is based on faith not physical evidence. I’m not about to deny my testimony over the lack of artifacts missing from a hillside. In such a case I would have to then deny other important matters given me from the Lord. Therefore, it is easier to go without evidence than it is to deny other evidences (manifestations) given me through faith. Either way I'm screwed so I'll take the Cumorah issue on faith and everything will work out in the end.

Paul O

January 23, 2004

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 22 2004, 10:41 AM
Well...great! Then nobody is ever wrong, and the Church is always True! You've got your bases covered!! Hallelujah! What ever the Spirit testifies to each individual is True for that individual...that's awesome!
You see...if you did a dig at the Hill Cumorah and found no artifacts it wouldn't matter because you always have the excuse of "maybe". MAYBE armor and swords and accoutrements weren't made of metal. MAYBE there were only 121 people there, and their bones dissolved (hoo-boy...). MAYBE the Hill is really in Chile (why not?). MAYBE the story was an allegory. MAYBE if I just create enoughs MAYBES then the issue of Truth will become obscured and the idea of Truth will not be important any longer as long as I FEEEEEEEEL like the Truth is the Truth.
You see...the Hill Cumorah issue IS important along with all other claims made by the Church. Those claims establish a foundation on which the Church can be judged True or False. By obfuscating the True statements by Church leaders all you're doing is creating a diversion from the Real Truth which is...those claims have not been verified and are in fact baseless.

Antishock, thank you thank you thank you for being a voice of reason in the wilderness. It all seems so clear to us, eh? Keep up the good work, bro'!

I just shakes me head and says. . . .

January 23, 2004

Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Jan 22 2004, 07:02 PM
SRM,
I don’t know where Zarahemla is and it may be that Joseph Smith had his ideas and talked about them-- even wrote them down. But, I do feel quite strong about President Romney’s testimony and I believe him. If President Romney did bear a false testimony about Cumorah he will have to answer for that, but I trust he was under the influence of the Holy Ghost-- so my belief in him and the other apostles and prophets feels pretty safe.
I agree with Antishock that the Cumorah issue is a core matter pertaining to the claims of the restoration. I don’t know where the evidence is anymore than President Bush knows where the weapons of mass destruction are in Iraq. I’m sorry if my attitude aggravates Antishock but my religion is based on faith not physical evidence. I’m not about to deny my testimony over the lack of artifacts missing from a hillside. In such a case I would have to then deny other important matters given me from the Lord. Therefore, it is easier to go without evidence than it is to deny other evidences (manifestations) given me through faith. Either way I'm screwed so I'll take the Cumorah issue on faith and everything will work out in the end.
Paul O

Paul Osborne · January 23, 2004

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 22 2004, 06:28 PM
Paul---so let's see, whenever a General Authority, like Br. Romney, makes a statement to a large group of saints, that is considered revelation and a truth you can rely on? You answered that question pretty clearly.
President Joseph Fielding Smith made the statement (not once but many times), "man will never walk on the moon" and he was the president of the Q of 12 at the time.
How are we supposed to believe in your assertion about Br. Romney, when some things said by GA's under the same circumstances turn out not to be true?

Cal,

You are confused by the confusion of the world. I don’t think President Smith ever got up in General Conference and bore witness in the Spirit that man would never walk on the moon.

I have no problem with President Smith expressing his personal views in the Improvement Era (Church periodical) under the section “Your Question”-- stating that man will not make it to the moon. So what, big deal. That was his opinion for someone that asked a question and he gave his answer of what he thought would be a future matter. He had nothing to base it on other than what he thought. It is a good thing that our prophets are sometimes wrong, otherwise we LDS might be tempted to worship them. It is a sad thing that nonLDS people expect our prophets to be perfect in everything they say as if they can never be wrong about anything. This is the very reason why the prophets today are generally very careful about what they say because after they say it goes under a magnifying glass and people like YOU are trying to find fault with the Lord’s anointed. For heavens sake, let the prophets be men and enjoy life too without holding them down as if they are supposedly speaking new scripture.

Paul O

Jenda · January 23, 2004

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 22 2004, 04:48 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/01/22...reut/index.html
If a mammoth skull can last so long in the ground, how come tens of thousands of bones wouldn't last in and around the Hill Cumorah?

AS, I am sure you know, as well as the rest of us, what conditions it takes to make a bone into a fossil. If it were soooo common, there would be hundreds of thousands of skeletons of dinosaurs present instead of the few that they have actually found. Or do you only believe that there were no more than the few dinosaurs present whose fossils they have found?

Most animal bodies decompose completely, including the bones, under natural conditions.

srm · January 23, 2004

That's fine. You obviously don't see how impossibly screwed up your thinking is. I can't even imagine how to begin to reason with someone who accepts the notion that something can be wrong and True at the same time. That's almost a paradox, and it has no relevance to me.

No, I'm not crazy everyone else is

No, really antishock you're an intelegent man. You know that is not what I'm saying.

The truth is the true regarless of what I say, or think. An easy example.

I might be conviced that 1+1=3. but the truth is still 1+1=2. no matter what I think or what I think I know, 1=1 is still 2. the truth will prevail.

Now take this same scenario to Cumorah. it does not matter where I may think that cumorah is or where I think I know where it is,...well, you get the picture.

The bottom line is that we do not know where Cumorah is. It has not been revealed. Since you whole argument is based on new York = cumorah it is specious.

January 23, 2004

Although this is a "gospel discussion" board (my favorite "general discussion" board having apparently gone to its reward), I think this thread has enough to do with military history for me to note that today is the 125th anniversay of the battle of Rorke's Drift, in which 200 British soldiers held off a Zulu army of 4,000 which had just polished off a much larger British force at Isandlwana. The movie to see is "Zulu" with Michael Caine, and it has a great finish.

"Well, they've got a very good bass section. But they've got no top tenor."

Awesome movie.

January 23, 2004

SRM,

Where did the Church hold the HILL CUMORAH pageant?

Paul Osborne · January 23, 2004

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 23 2004, 06:28 AM
SRM,
Where did the Church hold the HILL CUMORAH pageant?

My name isn’t SRM but I will say that the pageant is held in New York where the true hill Cumorah is found. Prophets, apostles, and inspired men and woman of all walks of life have felt the Spirit testify that Cumorah is in the very region in which great battles were fought. Or, shall we just pack up our things and go home and wait for the FARMS scholars to dig something up in South America? I think the FARMS scholars should quit digging and do some serious soul searching. Maybe the reason why they are funded by the Church is to keep them busy so they don’t drop out and join the critics. Learned people have always been at risk of falling away-- the Book of Mormon said so.

Paul O

srm · January 23, 2004

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 23 2004, 06:28 AM
SRM,
Where did the Church hold the HILL CUMORAH pageant?

I said that you were grasping at straws before. Now you've taken it to a new level. A pagent that started by a few missionaries gathering at the birthplace of mormonism and acting out scenes from the Book of Mormon that has turned into a full theatrical production and if a tourist attraction and missionary tool is proof that the Church doctrine is that this is the same hill where the final battle was fought? Come on antishock don't be silly.

January 23, 2004

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 22 2004, 04:42 PM
That's fine. You obviously don't see how impossibly screwed up your thinking is. I can't even imagine how to begin to reason with someone who accepts the notion that something can be wrong and True at the same time. That's almost a paradox, and it has no relevance to me.

It's all about perspective. Nephi killing Laban was right...but murder is wrong. God's purposes supercede laws because His purposes are based upon a principle...

Sometimes you can obey a principle without obeying a law under it.

srm · January 23, 2004

Originally posted by Paul Osborne+Jan 23 2004, 06:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Paul Osborne @ Jan 23 2004, 06:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Jan 23 2004, 06:28 AM
SRM,
Where did the Church hold the HILL CUMORAH pageant?

My name isn’t SRM but I will say that the pageant is held in New York where the true hill Cumorah is found. Prophets, apostles, and inspired men and woman of all walks of life have felt the Spirit testify that Cumorah is in the very region in which great battles were fought. Or, shall we just pack up our things and go home and wait for the FARMS scholars to dig something up in South America? I think the FARMS scholars should quit digging and do some serious soul searching. Maybe the reason why they are funded by the Church is to keep them busy so they don’t drop out and join the critics. Learned people have always been at risk of falling away-- the Book of Mormon said so.

Paul O

You may be right Paul. But it is not a doctrine of the Church. Many people (including leaders at the highest level) have had differing opinions about this. As far as I know...the Church has no official position on the location of Cumorah AND the scriptures are silent on the issue. Now, if President Hinkley were to come out with a statement that Cumorah is in Central America (or indiana or California, or, or or)...what would you do? IMSHO, while this is interesting, it is far less important than a witness of the spirit that The Book of Mormon is true, that Jesus is the Christ, that Joseph was a prophet.

srm · January 23, 2004

Originally posted by Jenda+Jan 22 2004, 08:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jan 22 2004, 08:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--antishock82003@Jan 22 2004, 04:48 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/01/22...reut/index.html
If a mammoth skull can last so long in the ground, how come tens of thousands of bones wouldn't last in and around the Hill Cumorah?

AS, I am sure you know, as well as the rest of us, what conditions it takes to make a bone into a fossil. If it were soooo common, there would be hundreds of thousands of skeletons of dinosaurs present instead of the few that they have actually found. Or do you only believe that there were no more than the few dinosaurs present whose fossils they have found?

Most animal bodies decompose completely, including the bones, under natural conditions.

I was thinking the same thing. they've only found 2 skulls...what happened to the rest? Most importantly is that we simply do not know where the Hill Cumorah was.

January 23, 2004

Sunday Morning Session, April 6, 1980

Introduction to the Proclamation

President Spencer W. Kimball

Spencer W. Kimball, “Introduction to the Proclamation,” Ensign, May 1980, 51

My dear brothers and sisters, it is a deeply moving and wonderful experience to stand here today where the Prophet Joseph Smith stood 150 years ago. We came here last night by jet airplane from Salt Lake City. We made the trip in a matter of a half-dozen hours, flying eastward over the broad expanse of this beautiful land where long ago our forebears painfully traveled westward in search of a place where they could be free of persecution and could worship God according to the dictates of their own conscience.

We are here, this lovely Easter morning, in the reconstructed farmhouse of Peter Whitmer, Sr. It has been faithfully restored for this occasion to bring to us anew the recollection of the all-important and significant event which occurred here a century and a half ago. In the years to come, it will be visited by good people from over the earth who will wish to stand where I stand today.

In this very location on April 6, 1830, there assembled a small group to formally organize The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They were believers in the testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith that in a grove of trees not many miles from here, on a spring day in the year 1820, he beheld in vision God the Eternal Father and his Son, the resurrected Lord, Jesus Christ. There followed in the intervening years visitations of other resurrected heavenly beings. From the soil of Cumorah’s Hill, a few miles to the west of here, Joseph obtained from the angel Moroni the records of a people who anciently inhabited this land; and, through the gift and power of God, he translated that record, now known as the Book of Mormon. A substantial part of that work of translation was accomplished in this Whitmer home.

On that historic Tuesday of April 6, 1830, one and a half centuries ago, six men from those assembled in this house organized the Church as a religious society. Three of the descendants of those men are here with us today—Sister Lorena Horner Normandeau, a great-granddaughter of Joseph Smith; Eldred G. Smith, a second great-grandson of Hyrum Smith; and Melvin Thomas Smith, a great-grandson of Samuel Harrison Smith.

Standing here today we review in our minds the mighty faith and works of those who, from this humble beginning, gave so much to help move the Church to its present wondrous stature; and more importantly, we behold through the eye of faith a vision of its sure and glorious future.

Now, my brothers and sisters, with the future before us, and sensing deeply the responsibilities and divine mission of the restored Church on this sacred occasion, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles declare to the world a proclamation. We have felt it appropriate to issue this statement from here, where the Church began. Accordingly, I shall ask Elder Gordon B. Hinckley of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, to speak in my behalf and in behalf of my brethren, to read this proclamation to you and to the world.

January 23, 2004

Testimony

President Gordon B. Hinckley

Gordon B. Hinckley, “Testimony,” Ensign, May 1998, 69

Now, my dear friends, I pray for the direction of the Holy Spirit. It is three years now since you sustained me as President of the Church. May I say a few words of a personal nature?

...

As I mentioned earlier in this conference, I’ve recently been in Palmyra, New York. Of the events which occurred in that area, one is led to say: “a declaration, a straightforward assertion of truth as we know it.

January 23, 2004

Can there be any doubt about the Church's position regarding the Hill Cumorah?

Paul Osborne · January 24, 2004

Originally posted by antishock82003@Jan 23 2004, 03:34 PM
Can there be any doubt about the Church's position regarding the Hill Cumorah?

Antishock,

Your references are valid and the General Authorities of the Church have made it clear that Cumorah is not only the home of the golden plates but the very place where the Nephites gave battle. The Spirit of God has moved the apostles to bear witness of what they know to be true such as President Romney to the whole Church in the presence of all the General Authorities. Either President Romney (in the previous quote I provided) was moved by the Spirit, or he was not. Either we can rely upon the apostles to bear truthful witness in General Conference, or we cannot.

I believe the Book of Mormon is true and the Holy Ghost has given me this knowledge notwithstanding all the controversies about horses, swords, and bones. :)

Paul O

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