Pondering Divine Justice

[Snow]

Here's a draft of my talk for Church tomorrow:

Pondering Divine Justice

Mount Everest

In 1952 Mt. Everest was one of the few remaining unconquered frontiers on earth. Major expeditions had been going on since the 1920’s but until Sir Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay of the Hunt expedition in 1953, all had failed.

In those days, only a very elite group of the world’s best climbers could do such a thing. Times have changed. Since that first successful assent, over 2000 people have reached the summit, over 1000 since 1998. This climbing season, a 70-year-old Japanese man became the oldest person ever to reach the peak. A double amputee with prosthetic legs also reached the summit successfully. There are now commercial ventures that, for a price, will give amateurs and adventure seekers a chance to climb the tallest mountain in the world.

That being said, Mount Everest is still a very, very dangerous place. About 200 people have died in search of the top of the world, 11 in this year alone. In May of 1996, there were 33 people just on one day making a bid for the summit. 8 died.

The peak is 29,000 feet and the last 4000 feet are called the death zone because the oxygen is too thin to support life. People spend weeks at lower camps and elevations preparing to summit. From what’s called the South Col, climbers enter the death zone where they only endure for a few days. Winds and temperatures are unstable. It can plummet to 100 degrees below zero very quickly. If conditions are right, the final push starts at midnight and, if all goes well, the peak is 10 to 12 hours away. If successful, climbers must immediately turn around and descend below the death zone.

Several weeks ago, a lone climber, took the summit and was about 1000 feet into his decent when he got into very bad trouble. 40 people were said to have passed by him while he sat in his shallow ice cave. At least one gave him some oxygen. He died while most people did nothing. Sir Edmund Hillary called it “horrifying” but it is not a simple matter. At that altitude, most people can barely keep themselves alive let alone help someone else. The professional expedition leaders had the responsibility of looking after those that had hired them.

Nevertheless, we are compelled to ask, how could good people do nothing while another man suffered.?

Job

6One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came with them.

7"Where have you come from?" the LORD asked Satan.

And Satan answered the LORD; "I have been going back and forth across the earth, watching everything that's going on."

8Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and will have nothing to do with evil."

9Satan replied to the LORD, "Yes, Job fears God, but not without good reason!

10You have always protected him and his home and his property from harm. You have made him prosperous in everything he does. Look how rich he is!

11But take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!"

12"All right, you may test him," the LORD said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the LORD's presence.

Well – now here’s an interesting story. God wagers with Satan to see if the righteous Job will curse God, when things get miserable for Job.

Job is perhaps the oldest book of the bible (written as early as 1200 BC – but set in it current form by 4 to 6 hundred BC) and considered by many to be the finest literature in all scripture and one of the most difficult.

Job is comprised of 4 parts:

The Prologue, written in prose

The Dialogue – 30 chapters of Edomite poetry

The famous Voice from the Whirlwind

And a short Epilogue of about a chapter to wrap it all up.

What is it all about?

It’s about Theodicy

The etymology of the word in Greek is

Theo – God, and

Dike – justice

The Book of Job ponders Divine Justice.

Theodicy is also called the Problem of Evil and it is this, in the form of a dilemma or trilemma, if you will. Namely, how can you reconcile a powerful, benevolent God with the existence of innocent suffering? That is: How can God be good and benevolent, be powerful enough to prevent innocent suffering and evil and yet evil and suffering exist? Evil is defined not only as intention malignant acts by bad people, but also as suffering caused naturally through things such as natural disasters like volcanoes, floods or accidents.

Trilemma:

• Yes – there is a god

• Yes – God is powerful and benevolent

• Yes – there is apparent innocent suffering

• Since God wants to do good things, if he could prevent suffering – he would, yet he doesn’t.

This is one of the oldest and greatest philosophical quandaries man has ever attempted to explain. Various solutions, of course have been proposed. For example:

1. Yes, I understand the problem so poised - there is innocent suffering, so, there is no God – or if there is a god, he is not benevolent or not omnipotent – all-powerful and so can’t or won’t prevent evil. That is - “theos” (god) cannot be reconciled with “dike” (justice).

2. There are multiple deities that will both good and evil and one cannot gain the upper hand against the other. When things go poorly, malignant deities (Satan perhaps) have the upper hand.

3. Get rid of the “apparent” in apparent innocent suffering… Yes, there is suffering, but we deserve it as we are all guilty. John Calvin said that man was nothing but a five-foot worm and that children were snakes. We don’t deserve because of what we have done ourselves, we deserve it on account of original sin.

4. Suffering is educative and therefore necessary and beneficial – it does salvific, religious or cosmological good. For example, we many learn that we cannot achieve happiness on our own so we throw ourselves on the mercy of God and thus become candidates for salvation and this is the only way of learning such important lessons

5. Yes there is suffering, but in the bigger scheme of things, in the context of eternity, it is minor and inconsequential. Yes – it looks like the good die young and the wicked get ahead but if only if you are so benighted that you assume that this brief span of years is all that there is.

6. One proposed solution is popular among some folks and that is the proposition of free will or what we today might call moral agency; Evil is the consequence of God permitting humans to have free will or God may intend evil and suffering as a test for humanity. Without the possibility to choose to do good or evil acts, humanity would be nothing but robots. Here, God is still good but supposedly not responsible for our suffering because we cause it ourselves. At first glance this solution my sound attractive however I think it fails upon examination. One, there is natural evil, fires, earthquakes and floods over which man has no control, and two, if man does, through his agency, create the evil, since God created man and is good and benevolent and powerful and could stop it. And even though man might create his own suffering, there are still innocent suffering. If God is the creator of all things, the dilemma or trilemma still exists

So – there are some answers, even some good answers, but, are they good enough?

Religion proposes some of these solutions aa dogma – a religious doctrine proclaimed as true but without proof. So, let me propose another way to look at the problem. When people leave religion, one of the thing they say – if asked – is that the dogma they learn or the answers they found in religion, did not match their experience. All religions proclaim that there is justice --- but does everyday, grinding, flesh and blood, sweating reality make sense of dogma or prove that they are only pious frauds?

Now – back to Job.

In the prologue God has wagered, after a fashion with Satan to tempt Job and subject him to suffering to see if he, contrary to God’s contention, will curse God. Now the original word for Satan in this context is “Hasatan” and Hasatan refers, not to the Prince of Darkness or adversary, but rather is kind of a KGB agent for the king in a Persian Court who hangs out is alleys and bathroom and defends the king’s honor. He listens for what people say about the king when no one else is around and that’s the role of Satan here.

God, after as fashion says to Hasatan – have at it and so, in short order, Jobs servants are put to the sword by Sabeans, then fire fell from the sky and killed his sheep, then the Chaldeans stole all this camels. If that’s not enough and by golly don’t you think it ought to be, a tornado came and killed all his children.

How does Job respond?

1:21 Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; ? may the name of the LORD be praised."

Then Satan strikes Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.

Job’s wife encourages him to curse God but he will not.

Then, at the end of the prologue we have this scene of Job, having sunk into a self-possessed state, sitting on a pile of offal, o-f-f-a-l, a trash heap, covered with a horrible skin condition, scratching himself with a potsherd.

Job was a great man, he had 7 sons and 3 daughters, lot of money, 7000 sheep and camels too. He was blameless, uprtight and a fearer of of God – God himself says so. And now Job has nothing.

Along come his three friends:

Elifaz

Bildat, and

Zofar

And very little happens for the next 30 chapters. Now, we have the word “Jobian” as an adjective that means patient suffering but I think that is the exact opposite of what Job is really experiencing. I think he is paradigmatically inpatient One by one Job sycophantish friends trot out their dogma – as in the solutions of the problem of justice and why Job suffesr – like… since Job suffers, he must be wicked. But that’s wrong. It’s faulty logic. If the alarm clock breaks, we will be late to church. We are late to church; therefore the alarm broke. That’s a false syllogism. No, they are wrong; we, the readers, know the real reason for Job’s suffering.

Job wants his friends, I think, to drop the dogmas and seemingly pietistic frauds and pay attention to his suffering, to his experience. He is inpatient. Even the thought that he would be rewarded in an afterlife wouldn’t serve, as that wasn’t a belief of his time. Even Job says: I know this is it, that when I die, I will be no more. He wants an answer now.

Here’s where things pick up again in chapters 36-42 with the Voice From the Whirlwind.:

The God of Israel shows up in an enormous theophany (“theo” meaning God and “phanein” meaning to show one’s self). It’s a cataclysmic light and sound show with thunder and lightning. Job and his friends are rendered speechless:

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:

2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?

3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.

4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? ? Tell me, if you understand.

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! ? Who stretched a measuring line across it?

6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone-

7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place,

16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep?

17 Have the gates of death been shown to you? ?

18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth? ? Tell me, if you know all this.

You would think that Job gets the point by now by the Lord doesn’t let up.

19 "What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside?

20 Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?

21 Surely you know, for You have lived so many years!

25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm,

28 Does the rain have a father? ?Who fathers the drops of dew?

31 "Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion?

And there is much more., a lot more.

The point is very clear. The God of Israel has a sphere of knowledge that is incomprehensibly greater than man.

Job responds: Now I know. Before I did not comprehend, but now I know

God tells Job that he is angry because in all his impatience he failed to acknowledge that God knows what Job did not.

But remember, Job wanted attention paid to his experience and indeed God responded with an experience par excellence; the theophany and whirlwind. God validated Jobs desires with experiential knowledge. Even if Job was explicitly condemned, he was implicitly praised.

While Job was implicitly praised, Job’s friends are condemned in the epilogue because they thought they could understand the universe through dogmatic platitudes. Job found out that he did not know it all and even though he had been wrong in that, he came to know more than he previously did.

There is a puzzling thing about the epilogue where Job is rewarded with more money than he had before and more family. It looks like retributive justice – quid pro quo justice:

• Do good – get good.

• Do evil – suffer

So what’s the point? Job’s friends who preached retributive justice were wrong – they surmised that Job suffered because he had been wicked - but the book ends with retributive justice.

Maybe that’s a way of saying that no matter what answer you give to the problem of evil, it can always be undercut. There is no answer that we can fully comprehend that satisfactorily answers all the problems of theodicy.

So, how do we, or how can we in the Church approach a solution to Divine Justice?

This gets a little technical, but remember that the essence of the problem revolves around these three statements: 1. God is good, 2. God is all-powerful, and 3. there is evil in the world. The "problem of evil" is that we want to affirm all three but we can only have two.

The LDS philosopher Sterling McMurrin postulated that Mormonism makes concession to the 2nd leg of the trilemma, that God is all-powerful or completely sovereign over the universe. There is natural evil (volcanoes, floods, accidents) and there is moral evil. Moral evil, the evil that men do, is the inevitable consequence of genuine moral freedom. Natural evil, the evil that the world does, results from the moral neutrality of the universe. God is not ultimately responsible for either that freedom or that neutrality. They are among the elemental uncreated facts of existence. But by entering creatively into human and natural history, God struggles endlessly to extend his dominion over the blind processes of the material world and to cultivate the uses of freedom for the achievement of moral ends. (Theological Foundations of the Mormon Religion pp 96-7)

What McMurrin calls “Mormon Finitism is the essence of one solution to the problem. Admittedly this approach is not necessarily accepted, appreciated, or even recognized by most Mormon commentators on the subject. But, I think it is interesting because it seems to be consistent with gospel truths restored through Joseph Smith. God did not create the universe ex nihilo – out of nothing, he formed the universe out of eternal pre-existing matter. God is the creator of man and our souls but he did not create man’s “intelligence” which has always existed, co-eternal with, and independent of God. So natural and moral evil can exist and God does not necessarily have to be the author of it or control it or ameliorate it completely.

In the final analysis, I think it is more than fair to say that God’s sphere of knowledge is infinitely greater than our sphere of knowledge. We sometimes think we know, but we do not know.

33 Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God’s dominion over the earth?

34 "Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water?

35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?

36 Who endowed the heart with wisdom or gave understanding to the mind?

God knows - We don’t know. We can only study, guess and have faith.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I enjoyed the Mt. Everest information, but I wasn't quite clear how it tied in to your talk. Maybe consider tying it back in at the end with how it relates to us?

Theodicy is also called the Problem of Evil and it is this, in the form of a dilemma or trilemma, if you will.

Trilemma: What a wonderful way to sum up the three-part problem of suffering. I rather like it. Did you come up with it, or adapt it? Either way, it's now part of my gospel vocabulary.

I think you did a splendid job representing the spectrum of solutions to theodicy.

All religions proclaim that there is justice --- but does everyday, grinding, flesh and blood, sweating reality make sense of dogma or prove that they are only pious frauds?

One important lesson I learned from personal suffering and the Book of Job (specifically Job's friend's clumsy attempts to comfort/chastise him), is that when someone' suffering they don't want lectures or sermons. They usually know all that -- maybe even believe it -- but that doesn't make the bloody nose or broken heart disappear. There's a Jewish proverb I've taken to heart: "Among those who laugh, do not cry; among those who cry, do not laugh." Be in tune to others' feelings/trials...and mourn with those that mourn. Jesus didn't say, "Snap people out of their misery by pointing out how in the end all suffering is inconsequential!" He said mourn with those that mourn. :) My two...thousand...cents.

Hasatan refers, not to the Prince of Darkness or adversary, but rather is kind of a KGB agent for the king in a Persian Court who hangs out is alleys and bathroom and defends the king's honor. He listens for what people say about the king when no one else is around and that’s the role of Satan here.

Excellent background, this is one quality talk!

We are late to church; therefore the alarm broke. That’s a false syllogism.

My favorite is: "The sun rises when the rooster crows; therefore, the rooster makes the sun rise."

Job wants his friends, I think, to drop the dogmas and seemingly pietistic frauds and pay attention to his suffering, to his experience.

Exactly! Great emphasis. That's what the Book of Job taught me...toss the principles and precepts in the bin for now...just put your arm around the guy for crying out loud!

The point is very clear. The God of Israel has a sphere of knowledge that is incomprehensibly greater than man.

Echoed/rephrased concisely in Isaiah 55:8-9.

Maybe that's a way of saying that no matter what answer you give to the problem of evil, it can always be undercut. There is no answer that we can fully comprehend that satisfactorily answers all the problems of theodicy.

Too true. If only we'd keep our finite understanding in mind before we "punish God" by ignoring Him when we suffer.

There is natural evil (volcanoes, floods, accidents) and there is moral evil.

I agree to a point...God certainly can control the elements, though I'm not saying He wills all natural disasters to happen. He does have control, just doesn't always exercise it...which again gets back to, "Why wouldn't an all-powerful all-loving God foresee and prevent Pompeii?" Which gets back to...we don't always know.

God did not create the universe ex nihilo – out of nothing, he formed the universe out of eternal pre-existing matter. God is the creator of...our souls but...did not create man’s “intelligence” which has always existed, co-eternal with, and independent of God.

These two points appear to be twin keys to unlocking theodicy's mystery. You tie them in excellently. I don't think many people consider those facts when attempting to square suffering with celestial love/power. Well done!

God knows - We don’t know. We can only study, guess and have faith.

Amen!

Hey, can you give that talk in my ward sometime? Sheesh, if only we had more talks like that, instead of the all too common saccharine-syrup sugar-puff honey-wrapped silicon sermons I've encountered. I'm not surprised this caliber of gospel discussion comes from you Snow...I misunderstood you at first when I joined this board, but quickly learned to respect your knowledge and opinions. Godspeed with your talk, I think those with ears to hear will be riveted. :)

[Snow]

I enjoyed the Mt. Everest information, but I wasn't quite clear how it tied in to your talk. Maybe consider tying it back in at the end with how it relates to us?

I appreciate all your comments. I was hoping for some help in polishing it up.

The tie in to Everest and theodicy was that a man died 3 weeks ago while people who might have been able to do something - did nothing. I'll try and hit it once again at the end.

My counselor who is speaking with me may not make it since his wife just went into labor. I may need to expand the talk a little to take up the time and your other comment will help.

Many thanks.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

The tie in to Everest and theodicy was that a man died 3 weeks ago while people who might have been able to do something - did nothing.

Gotcha. Makes sense.

[Maureen]

Hey, can you give that talk in my ward sometime? Sheesh, if only we had more talks like that, instead of the all too common saccharine-syrup sugar-puff honey-wrapped silicon sermons I've encountered. I'm not surprised this caliber of gospel discussion comes from you Snow...I misunderstood you at first when I joined this board, but quickly learned to respect your knowledge and opinions. Godspeed with your talk, I think those with ears to hear will be riveted. :)

IMO, the GA's of the LDS church are of a different generation than what the LDS church needs now. If the LDS church can produce curious, inquisitive, interesting and profound thinking (and humour) in GA's that Snow usually displays, than the LDS could go far with the "great commission".

M.

[Ray]

Hi Snow,

You have some good ideas in your presentation, and it seems to be well organized, but if I were you, and you know I’m not, I would say things quite a bit differently. So thank God that you’re not me, won't you?

Anyway, if you want my ideas on what I would say, I would start with your final statement…

God knows - We don’t know. We can only study, guess and have faith.

… while knowing through faith we can all know God, and all God knows about everything.

You do know what faith from God really is, don’t you?