Is This What Gun Grabbers Want In The Usa?

[Fiannan]

The Belgian state is no longer able to guarantee the security of its citizens. On Saturday afternoon Guido Demoor, a 54-year old Flemish train conductor on his way to work, was kicked to death by six “youths” on a crowded bus near Antwerp’s Central Station. The incident recalls the rush-hour murder ten weeks ago of Joe Van Holsbeeck, 17 years of age, in a crowded Brussels Central Station on 12 April.

Guido Demoor, a father of two, intervened when six “youths” got on bus 23 in Antwerp and began to intimidate passengers. There were some forty people on the bus. Demoor asked the “youths” to calm down, whereupon they turned on him, savagely beating and kicking the man. At the next stop thirty passengers fled the bus. The thugs kept beating Demoor. They then pulled the emergency brake and jumped from the bus leaving their victim to die.

Three Moroccans, two of whom are minors, were arrested today. The website of the Dutch paper De Stentor reports tonight that a fourth suspect, believed to be the ringleader, fled into a shop as the police were poised to arrest him. He managed to escape from the shop when dozens of “youths” came to his rescue. Witnesses had described the culprits as immigrant youths of between 18 and 21 years of age. During the weekend the police had called for witnesses as only four people had come forward. The police offered the witnesses absolute confidentiality and promised not to reveal their identities. “Obviously people fear reprisals,” Gazet van Antwerpen wrote today.

Belgians do not have a constitutional or legal right to bear arms, not even purely defensive arms such as peppersprays. With the police and the government failing to protect law-abiding citizens the latter are, however, totally unprotected. Saturday’s murder has shocked bus drivers and train conductors, but they stress that they are not in the least surprised. Violence on public transport has become a fact of life.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1130

Note, in most of Europe (western) you are not allowed to own a gun to defend yourself. In Sweden a woman cannot even own peperspray to defend herself from rape. Just remember this story when you hear a gun grabber say that the only people who should be able to carry a gun are cops and the military.

[sgallan]

First, I am not a gun control person. This is the USA and that genie is out of the bottle. I don't own a gun (they are expensive and I got better uses for my money) but my dad has a bunch of them and I like to shoot. But.... Europe is not a good example. They have far lower crime rates, a far lower incarceration rates, and are far less violent, than the USA. What they do over there seems to work very well for them.

[CaptainTux]

With all due respect, your story here proves nothing for or against gun control. Frankly, all I see is sloppy journalism. The statement in the story...

Belgians do not have a constitutional or legal right to bear arms, not even purely defensive arms such as peppersprays.

Could have easily read

Belgians do not have a death penalty.

Belgians do not have a constitutional or legal right to wear blue, not even on Tuesdays.

There is no causal relationship proved between the two events.

We have a right to bear arms...so do Canadians...but we have much higher crime..so guns affect on crime is not a factor...why do we have more crime per capita over Canada? Do they wear more blue?

[Fiannan]

So CaptianTux, you see no connection to guns and a mob kicking an innocent man to death? Let them try that stuff in Texas and they'd look like one of those Tom and Jerrys where Tom gets into it and then drinks a glass of water and the water leaks out of him through all the holes. And there is plenty of connection to a population that has been taught to be passive and let the state do everything for them. Sheep, Borg call it what you like -- it's the ultimate goal of left-wing liberalism.

And Sgallen, don't buy into the idea that Europe has less crime. In Sweden you can have someone trying to break your door down, call the police, and they never appear. No appearance, no report to file, no crime.

[CaptainTux]

So CaptianTux, you see no connection to guns and a mob kicking an innocent man to death? Let them try that stuff in Texas

Again, no disrespect, but in 2002 the deaths per 100,000 people for them was 2.8 and in the state of Texas it was 6.

[CaptainTux]

Quick side note...my opinion on violent crime? I think the answer does not lie in guns or no guns..death penalty or no death penalty...etc etc etc. I think the root cause is a loss of hope. Note the per capita rate is always higher in densely populated areas that are usually poverty ridden. No hope=no worries. Not sure there are any bills we can pass to give people hope.

I sometimes feel like we are treating migraines with foot massage. Darn, it feel good, but we are not going after the root problem.

[prisonchaplain]

We have a right to bear arms...so do Canadians...but we have much higher crime..so guns affect on crime is not a factor...why do we have more crime per capita over Canada? Do they wear more blue?

Finally, after 3 years, I broke down and watched Bowling for Columbine (by every conservative's favorite producer, Michael Moore). He actually pegged the likely reason (or at least a signficant factor)--FEAR. We run on fear in this country--fear of crime, fear of "others," etc. Don't know--just struck me as a plausible reason.

[Fiannan]

Suppose Michael Moore has armed security?

[prisonchaplain]

Suppose Michael Moore has armed security?

Despite his rhetoric, he is American too.

[CaptainTux]

Interesting. I have not seen the movie.

[sgallan]

And Sgallen, don't buy into the idea that Europe has less crime. In Sweden you can have someone trying to break your door down, call the police, and they never appear. No appearance, no report to file, no crime.

Now that is funny. With this sort of "don't fool me with the facts because I can make stuff up to prove my point" type thing I can say virtually anything, and it's every bit as credible as anything you might have to say. It is the perfect debate position. You cannot win nor lose because nothing is real or unreal..... it is all just made up in the mind of the debators position.

I think we need guns in this country. Our incarceration rates are so high, and have so many guns, and violent crimes, that it seems we are pretty violent people (look at your shoot out to every situation attitude). Heck I should get a gun just so you don't cop an attitude and try to take me out.

Of course that could be exciting and I am nothing if not an adrenaline junky.

[Fiannan]

In speaking of Michael Moore PC states:

Despite his rhetoric, he is American too.

Yeah, and so are 300 million others. I hope you don't actually believe his rhetoric though.

http://www.mooreexposed.com/

A friend of mine (liberal at that) let me borrow his book "Michael Moore is a Big Fat Stupid White Man". A must read.

[Fiannan]

Excuse me sgallan, but this is just not the case:

Now that is funny. With this sort of "don't fool me with the facts because I can make stuff up to prove my point" type thing I can say virtually anything, and it's every bit as credible as anything you might have to say. It is the perfect debate position. You cannot win nor lose because nothing is real or unreal..... it is all just made up in the mind of the debators position.

Oh I guess I know nothing about Sweden, having lived there for many years, having a wife from the country and children with US/Swedish-EU citizenship. Guess I am just making things up. Did you know that cops won't go into large sections of Malmo (Sweden's third largest city) unless responding to an emergency call -- and that had better be quite an emergency? I have walked the streets of St. Petersberg and Moscow many times at all hours of the night but I would never go into that Swedish city after dark. Much of Paris is the same way and apparently Belgium has some problems as well.

But, alas, I'm probably making all this up as well.

[sgallan]

Big deal. I've lived in the USA all of my life and guess what? We see things differently about this nation as well. And guess what again? We have hundreds of places that will not report crime in this country as well. You ever heard of the inner city? Happens all of the time. I've seen it in every nation I have ever been in. So this isn't news.

Face up to it, the demographics with regards to crime, and the number of citizens we incarcerate in this nation, are abyssmal. The worst in the industrialized world. So having guns doesn't exactly help in this regard. Think of it though...... in a way I am agreeing with you. We need our guns. This country can be a pretty brutish place. And as I also said..... that genie has been out of the bottle for about 300 years on this continent. It's not going back in.

Canada would be better though but I just can't afford it at the moment and Winnie might get annoyed.

[Outshined]

You can't really compare different countries as their mindsets are so different. Many have a more passive nature, whereas we do not. I've lived in five other countries, but have not found one I like better than the US.

If I thought another country was better to live in, I'd be there, but this is home and the greatest nation on the planet. B)

[prisonchaplain]

Interesting. I have not seen the movie.

Try your public library--that's where I borrowed mine.

Yeah, and so are 300 million others. I hope you don't actually believe his rhetoric though.

http://www.mooreexposed.com/

A friend of mine (liberal at that) let me borrow his book "Michael Moore is a Big Fat Stupid White Man". A must read.

Fiannan, to give you a clue as to my politics, I was president of my college's Young Americans for Freedom (YAF). Look it up if you don't know, and you'll see how close I'm likely to be to Mr. Moore.

All the more reason why I was struck by the simple notion that violence is high in America because we're running on fear. I think Moore accidentally stumbled upon that one.

[sgallan]

but this is home and the greatest nation on the planet.

There could be a difference however between the "greatest" country on earth, and the best one to live in. For my values, and current needs, Canada would be better. Generally speaking it is a kinder, more caring nation, from my POV. A kick butt economy and military, and some cool geography and people, do go a long way. So if I am 'stuck' here that works too.

[Outshined]

Certainly;as I said I can live anywhere, but live in the US because I feel it's the best place to live.

I'm sure Canada is swell too, but I prefer it here.

[sgallan]

I'm sure Canada is swell too, but I prefer it here.

Could I interest you in some real estate in East St. Louis.

[Outshined]

Nah, I've grown rather enamored of East Tennessee...Yee-Haw!

[sgallan]

I am sure you'd just love East St. Louis. It is in the United States afterall.

[Outshined]

One of my platoon mates in Germany was from East St Louis; he talked about it like it was Mecca.

I guess it's all on what you're used to. He might hate your town... B)

[sgallan]

You ever seen that town? We drive thru every year on the way to wrestle in Michigan. It's mostly empty lots now as it's been somewhat depopulated. It is considered the most dangerous town in the country and has been for many years. It's one of those places that if you are white, and have a death wish, go for a little stroll after dark. When I went through with Reni and Brittny a couple of years ago it was like 10:00 PM and with two young girls 13 & 9 I am thinking "not a good place to breakdown". Very rare I get nervous but with the girls in tow I did then.

I understand about your friend. I see people in the prisons who - while they don't think it is mecca - prefer it.

[Outshined]

Sure; it's all in what you're used to and where you grew up. This guy talked about ESL like it was the greatest city in the world. He'd probably go crazy in the country or a midwest area like Iowa.

While it may not be your idea of a great place to live, there are people who love it. If I couldn't live here, I'd like to give Australia a shot; I always thought it looked nice.

[sgallan]

Australia would be my second choice, but there is no wrestling there for the kid so it would have to wait until she is grown. In Canada womens/girls wrestling is a respected and popular sport. They do really well and are ranked second in the world. Reni may even end up there in college.