Temple And Early Saints

[Serg]

While reading, i encountered something unusual but very ignored.

I'll introduce this thread asking questions(is more fun):

Where did Joseph get his endowments?

Where did Joseph got sealed for time and eternity to his more that 25 spouses?

Where and when did Joseph introduce and took to effect the endowments and sealings of most early apostles?

Well, most people i know from my ward(to whom i NEVER talk of such things), may say "at Kirtland" and others may say "at Navoo".LOL.

In fact let's try such claims:

a) Kirtland;

It is nonsense, for the ceremony of endowments was first introduced after 1842 a time at which they had left already Kirtland, plus, "The Church Restored" explains that the Kirtland Temple "was never intended' to be a regular modern temple to effectuate ordenances, but a holy place of gathering. In fact, Kirtland had none of the rooms in which we now celebrate such ordenances, but was one of the many type of evangelical churches.

b)Navoo could have not been the place either. That temple was finished in 1846 two years after Smith had received his endowments(and most leaders), and almost a decade since Smith had began taking plural wives, and "sealed them" to him. Interesting though, that these ordenances are yet recorded in the Church records, but were effectuated in a masonic lodge at navoo. There all of our leaders had their ordenances and marriages.

Now, what would you think if i even suggested we could have our endowments in a masonic lodge? or for that manner in any other church building? Why did they do it in the Lodge and not in a chapel? wow...deep.

Just to see.

Regards,

[Maureen]

Wikipedia.org has this information:

The Kirtland Endowment

As early as 1831, Smith taught that temples needed to be built so the saints could receive the fullness of the priesthood. When the Saints left the temple in Kirtland, he mentioned that the "fullness of the priesthood" had not yet been given. The "fullness of the priesthood" later became associated with the Second Anointing, which is today an extension of the Endowment ceremony rarely discussed.

The first Mormon endowment ceremonies were performed at a temple in Kirtland, Ohio. These ceremonies were significantly different from the modern version of the Endowment ceremony that was first performed in Nauvoo, Illinois, but similar to the initiatory ordinances performed at Nauvoo and today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_%28Mormonism%29

M.

[Serg]

Wikipedia.org has this information:

The Kirtland Endowment

As early as 1831, Smith taught that temples needed to be built so the saints could receive the fullness of the priesthood. When the Saints left the temple in Kirtland, he mentioned that the "fullness of the priesthood" had not yet been given. The "fullness of the priesthood" later became associated with the Second Anointing, which is today an extension of the Endowment ceremony rarely discussed.

The first Mormon endowment ceremonies were performed at a temple in Kirtland, Ohio. These ceremonies were significantly different from the modern version of the Endowment ceremony that was first performed in Nauvoo, Illinois, but similar to the initiatory ordinances performed at Nauvoo and today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_%28Mormonism%29

M.

That is not good history.

[Winnie G]

Where did Joseph got sealed for time and eternity to his more that 25 spouses?

Funny you should ask that.

For a period of time being sealed to Joseph was a almost fashionable thing to do after his death.

Why who knows it was just done. Whether it was from grief or taught by others as the thing to do.

How do I know this because my best friend for well over 20+ years born and raised in Cardston Alberta Canada told me it always bothered her that her grate grandmother was sealed to Joseph not her grandfather. How her family linage was going to be straitened out she said and would come in the new millennium.

So 25 many more most likely. I would assume in the odd days of the church after Joseph’s death it was more then any one talks about.

Her grandmother was a plural wife who was brought to Canada during the jailing and persecution of her plural family.

She specks so kindly of her sister wives and oddly, she seems to miss them more then her husband.

She wrote in her journals how she missed them so and how unfair it was.

When you ask her about it she says the church at that time was still struggling with the ignorance and the superstitious times they lived in.

All of these questions are on my list of questions I want to ask Heavenly Father when I see him.

[Jason]

Where did Joseph get his endowments?

Good question. Im sure that the record would show that he got them at the same time as his brethren in the endowment room over the Newel K. Whitney store. They made a makeshift endowment house for the purposes of giving out the first endowments.

Look at it the same way that Joseph became an Elder. He ordained Sidney Rigdon, and then Rigdon ordained him. "God" had already given him that authority, but the formality of it was needed to begin.

Pretty easy to understand if you look at it like that.

Where did Joseph got sealed for time and eternity to his more that 25 spouses?

While he may have used the endowment room in the NKW store, its very likely he just did it out in the open somewhere. During the heavy persecution days in pre-manifesto Utah, many General Authorities sealed men to plural wives in secret. One story goes that a man was sealed to his new wife while riding in a carriage! It's the authority that counts, not the place.

For another example of authority over location, the early Utah Mormons used the top of Ensign peak (which isn't much of a peak if you ask me, but that's another story) to perform temple ceremonies, more especially the prayer circle. They did this in fact all during their trek westward from Nauvoo. Found a nice hill somewhere, and used it for a make-shift temple.

Historical precedent is where Im going here Serg. It's not unthinkable.

Where and when did Joseph introduce and took to effect the endowments and sealings of most early apostles?

This question is answered already. Where is the NKW store (likely). When is already known.

Excuse me now while I go throw-up for being so pro-lds......

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

Where did Joseph get his endowments?

Good question. Im sure that the record would show that he got them at the same time as his brethren in the endowment room over the Newel K. Whitney store. They made a makeshift endowment house for the purposes of giving out the first endowments.

Look at it the same way that Joseph became an Elder. He ordained Sidney Rigdon, and then Rigdon ordained him. "God" had already given him that authority, but the formality of it was needed to begin.

Pretty easy to understand if you look at it like that.

Where did Joseph got sealed for time and eternity to his more that 25 spouses?

While he may have used the endowment room in the NKW store, its very likely he just did it out in the open somewhere. During the heavy persecution days in pre-manifesto Utah, many General Authorities sealed men to plural wives in secret. One story goes that a man was sealed to his new wife while riding in a carriage! It's the authority that counts, not the place.

For another example of authority over location, the early Utah Mormons used the top of Ensign peak (which isn't much of a peak if you ask me, but that's another story) to perform temple ceremonies, more especially the prayer circle. They did this in fact all during their trek westward from Nauvoo. Found a nice hill somewhere, and used it for a make-shift temple.

Historical precedent is where Im going here Serg. It's not unthinkable.

Where and when did Joseph introduce and took to effect the endowments and sealings of most early apostles?

This question is answered already. Where is the NKW store (likely). When is already known.

Excuse me now while I go throw-up for being so pro-lds......

Yes go and throw up!

It is lies, lies and lies. The same Lord that prohibited Smith in D&C to baptize people for the dead in rivers also was allowing sealings and endowments(a thing most important-or sacred) in masonic lodges and "stores" or hills. Please! Truly our God contradicts Himself!

Why am I still lds?

...oh, yes, because of the trinity concept.

[Outshined]

I see no contradiction, only one person's attempts to find one.

[Serg]

I see no contradiction, only one person's attempts to find one.

Outshine:

Sister, it is indeed a contradiction. I dont even have to pin point it because it just pops out! Please, be serious, it is a contradiction.

[Outshined]

It's brother, actually, and you're still wrong; there is no contradiction. If the correct building does not exist, God is not limited.

Just because you have trouble understanding how it was done does not make it a "contradiction." Many such claims of "contradictions" are made about the Bible, but demonstrate more a lack of understanding than contradictions in God's nature.

[Serg]

It's brother, actually, and you're still wrong; there is no contradiction. If the correct building does not exist, God is not limited.

Just because you have trouble understanding how it was done does not make it a "contradiction." Many such claims of "contradictions" are made about the Bible, but demonstrate more a lack of understanding than contradictions in God's nature.

That is just given in a context of pure blindness. Of course, you are not blind, but willing to see what you want.

You say that because there is NO place God is therefore not limited, hum...tell that to D&C when God prohibited Joe Smith to baptize people for th edead without a temple!

[Jason]

It is lies, lies and lies. The same Lord that prohibited Smith in D&C to baptize people for the dead in rivers also was allowing sealings and endowments(a thing most important-or sacred) in masonic lodges and "stores" or hills. Please! Truly our God contradicts Himself!

While I do believe that the God of the Judeo-Christian world is the epitome of Contradiction, in this case I don't believe we have one. Baptism for the dead was officially restricted to being done in a font inside a temple, however marriages and endowments have not been, to my knowledge, officially restricted to a Temple.

When the Mormons left Nauvoo, as I've stated, they used mountain tops for their temples. Why? Because Mountains have been considered sacred by all peoples and cultures since time immemorial. Even Mt. Sinai was considered the home of of Yahweh.

Before the first temple was built in St. George, the church built a structure on the Temple Block (Today called Temple Square) called an Endowment House. It's sole purpose was to endow people until the SLC temple was finished. It was not a permanment structure, and served a purpose not unlike the travelling Tabernacle of Moses' day.

Why am I still lds?

...oh, yes, because of the trinity concept.

Based on your writings of late, I'd be pretty surprised if you're still LDS by Christmas.

[Outshined]

Based on your writings of late, I'd be pretty surprised if you're still LDS by Christmas.

I don't believe he is now...

That is just given in a context of pure blindness. Of course, you are not blind, but willing to see what you want.

That's the easy answer, isn't it? Those who disagree with your opinions must be "blind." I was 18 once too, so I know how the teenage superiority complex works...

You say that because there is NO place God is therefore not limited

Actually scripture tells us that. I certainly won't place limits on God, though you seem to be willing to consider it.,

tell that to D&C when God prohibited Joe Smith to baptize people for th edead without a temple!

Everything God told Joseph had a purpose; I don't recall being told that you or I had to approve of His methods.

[Serg]

Jason and outshine:

1) I also wonder if by christmas i would still be lds

2) I AM lds, although i dont agree with a lot of it*(do i have to submit completely to every stupidity of leaders in order to say that Iam of that faith?)

3)no, i am not boastfully negligent, nor proud as most leaders that admit no counsel for them,

4)let me be, I am not telling you that my way or the hig way, but you must accept that is a contradicction. baptism in scriptures require not a font. It was effectuated in rivers for both living and dead, until Elohim told that th eliving could but the dead no mre unless in a temple. The marriages also, any authority worthy of that name in the Church will tell you that sealings for time and eternity are ONLY allowed in the temple, thats why no common lds considers the chapel a "house of the Lord" for His presence is not even conceived to be there as it should be at the 'holy' temple. The scriptures that speak of how baptism for th edead required a temple also reffer to a font because of th elogic reason of not having a river inside of it, also, it speaks of a House of order in which ORDENANCES could be acceptable, Surely, baptism is not "ordenances" of the Holy Temple. So we must(as it is) apply th esame need of a Temple to the baptisms for the dead as to the endowments and sealings. While admitting so, we encounter that Smith, only provided importance to one, while left the other (for secret porpuses) intact and changing.

[Ray]

Serg,

I've noticed lately that you really have trouble with the message that's taught by the Church.

Do you really not know that God appoints prophets to serve Him and share His true message with us?

If you no longer believe Joseph Smith was truly a prophet of God, then who do you think has shared God's true message with all of us now here on Earth?

Or do you really not know that God appoints prophets to serve Him and share His true message?

Why share what's not true, or what you think is false, if you can share the truth with all of us?

[Serg]

Serg,

I've noticed lately that you really have trouble with the message that's taught by the Church.

Do you really not know that God appoints prophets to serve Him and share His true message with us?

If you no longer believe Joseph Smith was truly a prophet of God, then who do you think has shared God's true message with all of us now here on Earth?

Or do you really not know that God appoints prophets to serve Him and share His true message?

Why share what's not true, or what you think is false, if you can share the truth with all of us?

Dont bring me that stuffed-sentimental reasoning, i know the theological and social implications of me steping out of the Church. Indeed, while talking to Greg(Kearney), i agreed to stay a while and keep reading and praying about it. So dont press my buttons.

I dont have any trouble at all at understanding the Church's teachings, where do you get that from? From statemnts that you dislike but find suitable to deny boldly?

I know God talks to people, I just don believe that He only talks to a mormon leader.

Why would i share the false message this Church teaches? Or why would i stay in the Church if i DONT feel GOOD or HONST about it? Do you preffer hipocracy to honesty? Well, it would not surprise me at all, with all th elds history you all got as heritage.

Lets keep it simple, I am lds(as long as I remain enlisted), and you are my brother(indeed), and i just happen to be talking to you of things worthy to pay attention.

[Outshined]

let me be, I am not telling you that my way or the hig way, but you must accept that is a contradicction.

No, I must simply accept that it is your opinion that there is some "contradiction." In my view, there certainly is not. If you study the scriptures you know that there have been many times that God did things one way, then another.

Hopefully you will gain a greater understanding of the situation.

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

let me be, I am not telling you that my way or the hig way, but you must accept that is a contradicction.

No, I must simply accept that it is your opinion that there is some "contradiction." In my view, there certainly is not. If you study the scriptures you know that there have been many times that God did things one way, then another.

Hopefully you will gain a greater understanding of the situation.

I just wont press this any further.

[miztrniceguy]

Excuse me now while I go throw-up for being so pro-lds......

lolololololol