Pornography's Lies

[Cal]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 14 2004, 02:43 PM

I find it funny that JS was also jailed heavily, and brought up on false charges a lot at that time. Let's not forget that at the time the Church was just getting started, people were hunting us down. No one likes to bring up how much hatred and opposition to FREEDOM, there was at that point. We even had a death order sent out on our heads. Orin Porter Rockwell along with other "spotlighted" mormon figures took a great deal of strife JUST because they were Mormon. Until a prophet of the Church says otherwise, and as long as JS's writings maintain it. PR is ok in my book. One thing is, none of us were there. And if I were to believe everything(or even half) of what was written about Mormons at that time(including JS) then JS would have to be a crackpot with an imagination far from anything religious. Sorry Snow, just don't buy it.

Porter--have you ACTUALLY read any historical books on the guy? I think not, or you wouldn't be saying what you are saying.

[Cal]

Originally posted by srm+Mar 14 2004, 06:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Mar 14 2004, 06:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Maureen@Mar 14 2004, 05:04 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--srm@Mar 12 2004, 11:07 PM

Whom did he murder?  what evidence is there?  Was he convicted?

I'm adding my 2cents to this thread:

OPR murdered Lieutenant Frank Worrell of the Carthage Greys. One of the men acquitted of the murder of JS and Hyrum Smith. After the acquittals mayhem ensued between the Mormons and Gentiles (anti-Mormons). Several Mormon settlements were reduced to cinders. The county sheriff, Jacob Backenstos, was having problems raising a posse to capture marauders. He was accused of siding with the Mormons. Friends warned him about a plot against his life. The morning of Sept. 16, 1845, Backenstos drove his carriage to Carthage. From the book Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God / Son of Thunder (pp 138-139) it reads:

<span style='color:blue'>Lieutenant Frank Worrell of the Carthage Greys was flanked by two companions as he nudged his horse along the Warsaw road on the morning of September 16. Behind the three riders came five other men in a light rig and a two-horse wagon containing rifles. As they approached the Nauvoo road, Worrell pointed to a carriage nearing the crossroads in front of them. "It's that damn Backenstos," he shouted, spurring forward.

Backenstos had been eyeing the riders closely as they drew nearer, and when the lead horseman suddenly slapped his mount to a gallop, the sheriff laid on the whip and urged his own animal to top speed. Having the advantage of a two-hundred-yard lead, Backenstos disappeared over the brow of a hill before the rider could overtake him.

As it happened Rockwell and another Mormon, Return Jackson Redden, were watering their horses near a railroad siding when they spotted Backenstos charging straight at them. His pursuers were still out of sight beyond the rise. Rockwell and Redden, who had been assisting burned-out Mormon families in moving their possessions, sensed trouble and reached for their guns. The sheriff pulled hard on the reins and jerked to a stop in a cloud of dust. Backenstos sputtered in his haste to get the words out; he ordered the two Mormons to protect him "in the name of the state of Illinois, County of Hancock," from the "mob" at his heels. "Don't worry," Rockwell said, "We've got our pistols and two rifles."

No sooner had he spoken than two horsemen appeared on the crest of the hill and raced down on them. Worrell was well ahead of the closest man; the other had been thrown when his horse stumbled. Once the two were within hailing distance the sheriff shouted an order to stop. In answer, Worrell reached for his pistol. Before he could bring the gun to bear, a ball from Rockwell's rifle tore into his abdomen and catapulted Worrell from the saddle. At the sound of the shot the second rider frantically wheeled his horse and galloped to the wagon and buggy now arriving on the scene. The men gazed in disbelief at Worrell's crumpled form on the ground. Under Rockwell's cold gaze they gathered up their wounded leader and carried him to the wagon; he died before they reached Warsaw.

Footnotes show Peter Wilson Conover, "Autobiography," MS, p. 20; Gregg, History of Hancock County, pp. 340-341. At the watering hole there were witnesses who gave testimonoy at the sheriff's trial for murder.

Eventually around May 1846, OPR was arrested for the murrder of Frank Worrell. OPR: Man of God / Son of Thunder (pp 146-149) reads:

But his capture was in fact a carefully hatched plan to temporarily divert the attention of the anti-Mormon party and gain precious time for the Saints. Because Backenstos was prepared to testify that he had ordered Rockwell to shoot Worrell, church authorities were of the opinion that an impartail jury would not return a guilty verdict. Rockwell had agreed to face trial on first-degree murder charges, but the plan involved obtaining a change of venue to a court more favorable to the Saints.....Ultimately, the request for a change of venue to Galena, one hundred and fifty miles to the north in Daviess County , was granted - and not a moment too soon. A grand jury handed down an indictment against Rockwell by the first of June and ordered him to appear for trial the following month. Babbitt, after relieving his client of a gold watch as a fee for his services, subpoenaed his star witness, Sheriff Backenstos, and Rockwell was promptly freed.

M.

he was ordered by an officer of the law to protect him and then shot a man who was charging them AND drawing his weapon. This is murder to you?

srm--you think this is the whole story of OPR?

[srm]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 14 2004, 09:44 PM

Never mind SRM,

There's nothing in this debate for me.

If you ever want to take a position (what is that? 5 times you have refused to state your position) and put some credibility into the kitty, then I gladly deal you in, and after I take the hand, I'll smile ever so nicely and thank you for your participation.

As I said before...you are playing games. your metaphor of dealing me in bears it out. You made the claim that he was a serial killer. If you don't want to provide the evidence...I guess that is your perogative. But, what does that say about other claims you make?

[srm]

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 15 2004, 08:12 AM

srm--you think this is the whole story of OPR?

Of course not. But the is the only claim of 'murder' yet provided. Why not provide more so we can kick it around?

[Snow]

Originally posted by srm+Mar 15 2004, 09:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Mar 15 2004, 09:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 15 2004, 08:12 AM

srm--you think this is the whole story of OPR?

Of course not. But the is the only claim of 'murder' yet provided. Why not provide more so we can kick it around?

SRM,

That is 6 times in a row that you have refused to take a position on whether or not PR was a murder, and you accuse me a playing games?????

How does that work? Let me spell it out for you. I can and will present a reasonable and compelling case that PR murdered multiple people and that such is a generally and non-disputed fact in historical circles. However, I am not going to take the trouble as long as you refuse (6 times now) to take a position. I have taken a position and am prepared to defend it. However, as long as you continue to chicken out, there is no one to defend it against. No one disagree with me. You are refusing to disagree with me - probably because you know that I can demonstrate that I am correct. All you are doing is throwing up a smokescreen asking for proof while never committing.

Last chance - chicken or not SRM - Do you maintain that PR was innocent of multiple murders? Obviously you do not believe that but DO YOU MAINTAIN IT?

[srm]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 15 2004, 09:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 15 2004, 09:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -srm@Mar 15 2004, 09:23 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 15 2004, 08:12 AM

srm--you think this is the whole story of OPR?

Of course not. But the is the only claim of 'murder' yet provided. Why not provide more so we can kick it around?

SRM,

That is 6 times in a row that you have refused to take a position on whether or not PR was a murder, and you accuse me a playing games?????

How does that work? Let me spell it out for you. I can and will present a reasonable and compelling case that PR murdered multiple people and that such is a generally and non-disputed fact in historical circles. However, I am not going to take the trouble as long as you refuse (6 times now) to take a position. I have taken a position and am prepared to defend it. However, as long as you continue to chicken out, there is no one to defend it against. No one disagree with me. You are refusing to disagree with me - probably because you know that I can demonstrate that I am correct. All you are doing is throwing up a smokescreen asking for proof while never committing.

Last chance - chicken or not SRM - Do you maintain that PR was innocent of multiple murders? Obviously you do not believe that but DO YOU MAINTAIN IT?

Snow, I'm just not willing to dance at your beck and call. so, if you're not willing to back up your claims...I guess we'll have to drop it.

[porterrockwell]

Whom did he murder?  what evidence is there?  Was he convicted?

I'm adding my 2cents to this thread:

OPR murdered Lieutenant Frank Worrell of the Carthage Greys. One of the men acquitted of the murder of JS and Hyrum Smith. After the acquittals mayhem ensued between the Mormons and Gentiles (anti-Mormons). Several Mormon settlements were reduced to cinders. The county sheriff, Jacob Backenstos, was having problems raising a posse to capture marauders. He was accused of siding with the Mormons. Friends warned him about a plot against his life. The morning of Sept. 16, 1845, Backenstos drove his carriage to Carthage. From the book Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God / Son of Thunder (pp 138-139) it reads:

Lieutenant Frank Worrell of the Carthage Greys was flanked by two companions as he nudged his horse along the Warsaw road on the morning of September 16. Behind the three riders came five other men in a light rig and a two-horse wagon containing rifles. As they approached the Nauvoo road, Worrell pointed to a carriage nearing the crossroads in front of them. "It's that damn Backenstos," he shouted, spurring forward.

Backenstos had been eyeing the riders closely as they drew nearer, and when the lead horseman suddenly slapped his mount to a gallop, the sheriff laid on the whip and urged his own animal to top speed. Having the advantage of a two-hundred-yard lead, Backenstos disappeared over the brow of a hill before the rider could overtake him.

As it happened Rockwell and another Mormon, Return Jackson Redden, were watering their horses near a railroad siding when they spotted Backenstos charging straight at them. His pursuers were still out of sight beyond the rise. Rockwell and Redden, who had been assisting burned-out Mormon families in moving their possessions, sensed trouble and reached for their guns. The sheriff pulled hard on the reins and jerked to a stop in a cloud of dust. Backenstos sputtered in his haste to get the words out; he ordered the two Mormons to protect him "in the name of the state of Illinois, County of Hancock," from the "mob" at his heels. "Don't worry," Rockwell said, "We've got our pistols and two rifles."

No sooner had he spoken than two horsemen appeared on the crest of the hill and raced down on them. Worrell was well ahead of the closest man; the other had been thrown when his horse stumbled. Once the two were within hailing distance the sheriff shouted an order to stop. In answer, Worrell reached for his pistol. Before he could bring the gun to bear, a ball from Rockwell's rifle tore into his abdomen and catapulted Worrell from the saddle. At the sound of the shot the second rider frantically wheeled his horse and galloped to the wagon and buggy now arriving on the scene. The men gazed in disbelief at Worrell's crumpled form on the ground. Under Rockwell's cold gaze they gathered up their wounded leader and carried him to the wagon; he died before they reached Warsaw.

Footnotes show Peter Wilson Conover, "Autobiography," MS, p. 20; Gregg, History of Hancock County, pp. 340-341. At the watering hole there were witnesses who gave testimonoy at the sheriff's trial for murder.

Eventually around May 1846, OPR was arrested for the murrder of Frank Worrell. OPR: Man of God / Son of Thunder (pp 146-149) reads:

But his capture was in fact a carefully hatched plan to temporarily divert the attention of the anti-Mormon party and gain precious time for the Saints. Because Backenstos was prepared to testify that he had ordered Rockwell to shoot Worrell, church authorities were of the opinion that an impartail jury would not return a guilty verdict. Rockwell had agreed to face trial on first-degree murder charges, but the plan involved obtaining a change of venue to a court more favorable to the Saints.....Ultimately, the request for a change of venue to Galena, one hundred and fifty miles to the north in Daviess County , was granted - and not a moment too soon. A grand jury handed down an indictment against Rockwell by the first of June and ordered him to appear for trial the following month. Babbitt, after relieving his client of a gold watch as a fee for his services, subpoenaed his star witness, Sheriff Backenstos, and Rockwell was promptly freed.

M.

he was ordered by an officer of the law to protect him and then shot a man who was charging them AND drawing his weapon. This is murder to you?

srm--you think this is the whole story of OPR?

I don't think it is a matter of whether or not this is the whole story of OPR. The simple fact a story such as this one could be scewed to make Orin Porter Rockwell appear to be a murderer in the eyes of a "court" for means of conviction, is nothing more than petty defimation. From that alone I am weary to believe the "outer layer" of any claim against OPR. And yes I do know about him, "Porter Rockwell" is my nickname. The woman I work for in our ward said I remind her of him.

[Snow]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 15 2004, 02:36 PM

And yes I do know about him, "Porter Rockwell" is my nickname.

What's it going to be? Two weeks ago you had no idea.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 15 2004, 02:36 PM

nickname. The woman I work for in our ward said I remind her of him.

I don't think that could be construed as a compliment.

[Snow]

Yeah, and how old is she anyway that she could be reminded of the real Porter Rockwell?

[Outshined]

Originally posted by curvette+Mar 15 2004, 03:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Mar 15 2004, 03:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 15 2004, 02:36 PM

nickname.  The woman I work for in our ward said I remind her of him.

I don't think that could be construed as a compliment.

Especially if you've ever seen a picture of him......

[srm]

Originally posted by curvette+Mar 15 2004, 02:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Mar 15 2004, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 15 2004, 02:36 PM

nickname.  The woman I work for in our ward said I remind her of him.

I don't think that could be construed as a compliment.

Oh, I dunno. I hear tell that some women love long haired ruffians

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by srm@Mar 15 2004, 05:26 PM

Oh, I dunno. I hear tell that some women love long haired ruffians

Only the kind that shower and brush their teeth!

[srm]

Originally posted by curvette+Mar 15 2004, 07:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Mar 15 2004, 07:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Mar 15 2004, 05:26 PM

Oh, I dunno.  I hear tell that some women love long haired ruffians

Only the kind that shower and brush their teeth!

touche

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Outshined+Mar 15 2004, 03:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Outshined @ Mar 15 2004, 03:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -curvette@Mar 15 2004, 03:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 15 2004, 02:36 PM

nickname.  The woman I work for in our ward said I remind her of him.

I don't think that could be construed as a compliment.

Especially if you've ever seen a picture of him......

Comparing this picture with one from the book I'm reading I would say that Porter is probably in his late 30's.

There is a reason why Porter kept his hair long. It appears that JS told Port that <span style='color:blue'>"if he wore his hair long his enemies should not have the power over him neither should he be overcome by evil".

When he was in California he went to visit Don Carlos Smith's widow, Agnes. She had remarried and emigrated to California. When Porter first saw Agnes she was just recovering from typhoid fever and had lost all her hair. A letter by Elizabeth Roundy tells the story (which it seems Porter had told Mrs. Roundy about this visit) about Porter and Agnes' visit:

"...When he met Sister Smith he had no gold dust or money to give her, so he had his hair cut to make her a wig and from that time he said he could not control the desire for strong drink, nor the habit of swearing."

I've just started reading this book "Man of God, Son of Thunder". The man led a very eventful life.

M.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 15 2004, 03:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 15 2004, 03:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 15 2004, 02:36 PM

And yes I do know about him, "Porter Rockwell" is my nickname.

What's it going to be? Two weeks ago you had no idea.

I had no idead of any "cold blooded assassin/murderer" named Porter Rockwell, only PR I knew of is one of the early defenders of the Mormon religion. The woman I worked for is about 47 or 48, but she looks 30(beside the point). Anyway, she is a Pratt(maiden name) so she is very entrenched in church history. As am I(my mothers maiden name is Smith), so she was refering to me reminding her of PR, because I can be a tad bit aggressive in defense of the things I hold true. That and before I decided to go on a mission I was a little confrontational. Nonetheless, I do not think the church would allow the tag "Man of God" to be published and sold in connection with the Mormon culture if it were not true. I also do not trust a media and society that ridiculed us, tared and feathered us, and sent a death order on our heads for just being. If I would have been alive during the time of Joseph Smith I would have rode along side PR.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Maureen@Mar 16 2004, 12:56 PM

There is a reason why Porter kept his hair long. It appears that JS told Port that "if he wore his hair long his enemies should not have the power over him neither should he be overcome by evil".

That story sounds familiar. Sheesh! I wish the prophet would tell men that these days! I like long hair on men. I think they should enjoy their lovely tresses as long as they have them! (which isn't very long for some...)

What a bummer. The guy tries to do something nice for someone and gets punished!

(that, or else he just used it as an excuse...)

[Snow]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 16 2004, 01:22 PM

[Nonetheless, I do not think the church would allow the tag "Man of God" to be published and sold in connection with the Mormon culture if it were not true. I also do not trust a media and society that ridiculed us, tared and feathered us, and sent a death order on our heads for just being. If I would have been alive during the time of Joseph Smith I would have rode along side PR.

Do you think that the Church controls the University of Utah Press who published the book by that name? I can assure that they do not.

Which media outlet are you referring to that tared and feathered us? When did it happen? I can't even remember the tar and I am quite certain that I was involved with any feathers?

What society are you talking about that issued a death order? I am aware that Govenor Boggs issued one but I am blissfully unaware of any such order by society or media.

You suffer from a false persecution/victim syndrome. My guess is that you have never been persecuted in your life.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 16 2004, 03:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 16 2004, 03:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 16 2004, 01:22 PM

[Nonetheless, I do not think the church would allow the tag "Man of God" to be published and sold in connection with the Mormon culture if it were not true.  I also do not trust a media and society that ridiculed us, tared and feathered us, and sent a death order on our heads for just being.  If I would have been alive during the time of Joseph Smith I would have rode along side PR.

Do you think that the Church controls the University of Utah Press who published the book by that name? I can assure that they do not.

Which media outlet are you referring to that tared and feathered us? When did it happen? I can't even remember the tar and I am quite certain that I was involved with any feathers?

What society are you talking about that issued a death order? I am aware that Govenor Boggs issued one but I am blissfully unaware of any such order by society or media.

You suffer from a false persecution/victim syndrome. My guess is that you have never been persecuted in your life.

I guess Porter thinks that the gospel is SO TRUE that anything done in its defense is justified? Murder, mayhem... the whole nine yards, right Port?

[srm]

I was a little confrontational. Nonetheless, I do not think the church would allow the tag "Man of God" to be published and sold in connection with the Mormon culture if it were not true.

Now this is just silly Port. There are all kinds of untrue things and false doctrines published and sold in connection with Mormon culture