How can I know if it is really over with my wife's new "friend"?

[Juan_P]

If I didnt know better I would think I am your wife. Same exact situation. I did cheat. He doesnt know that, but he knows about the texts and the FB. I am not proud of it. In fact I am disgusted with myself. ...., I went for years and years not feeling loved at all. His way of showing it wasn't even something that equalled love to me. The yelling and the anger begin to break a person. I was, and still am, convinced that I must simply be unloveable. It hurts.....terribly. You speak of her betraying your trust. What you dont see is that she has been unable to trust you for years. She has been utterly alone. The one person she is supposed to be able to depend on turns on her regularly. She sees the pattern, it hasnt changed even when she did get the courage to brave your reaction and beg you to change. You ignored her again.....If you just ignore it....it will all go away right? You can pretend its peachy. But your avoidance just proves to her that shes isnt worth it in your eyes.

Desperate she reaches out to someone, probably a few people, to help her understand. To cope. She finds someone willing to listen. Really listen. Wow. It feels nice to have someone care. An she cares too. She understands what they are going through as well and sincerely want to help each other. But as you begin sharing confidences the feelings for each other grow. Until one day you realize its love. What a conflicting emotion. It has been so long since anyone showed love for you. Yet you know its not right. But barriers break. Desire to be loved can be all consuming. I think our spirits require love as our bodies require water. Thirst is a powerful motivator.....

.

If there is anything 'right'or natural about all this, if it is true that our spirit require love as our bodies require water' then why would she start to ignore her husband whilst testing out the oposition -ie the other dude she is starting a relationship with- before ending her marriage due to the so called lack of being loved? or that pattern that never changes? why not be honest and say 'dude, I don't love you anymore and we should divorce ' before reaching out to someone else of the opposite sex mind you, cause she didn't reach out to a friend of her same sex by the way, to help her understand?

Reading your comment I keep asking myself why they don't just end it first, correctly and properly with due respect for the first spouse before looking for that 'someone who cares'. I think you, and others, are just looking for justifications and excuses for this very serious sin of adultery . True the desire to be loved can be all consuming but YSA also feel this and don't necessarily have sex before marriage when they start to become friends with someone and when barriers start to break down.

There is something in your argument that worries me and I think something is lacking there.

[JudoMinja]

If there is anything 'right'or natural about all this, if it is true that our spirit require love as our bodies require water' then why would she start to ignore her husband whilst testing out the oposition -ie the other dude she is starting a relationship with- before ending her marriage due to the so called lack of being loved? or that pattern that never changes? why not be honest and say 'dude, I don't love you anymore and we should divorce ' before reaching out to someone else of the opposite sex mind you, cause she didn't reach out to a friend of her same sex by the way, to help her understand?

Reading your comment I keep asking myself why they don't just end it first, correctly and properly with due respect for the first spouse before looking for that 'someone who cares'. I think you, and others, are just looking for justifications and excuses for this very serious sin of adultery . True the desire to be loved can be all consuming but YSA also feel this and don't necessarily have sex before marriage when they start to become friends with someone and when barriers start to break down.

There is something in your argument that worries me and I think something is lacking there.

She stated, and everyone else who has commented on this thread has stated, that the decision to commit adultery was wrong and that the adulterer is responsible for that decision. Understanding how one progressed on that slippery slope to making such a terrible decision is not making excuses. It is good to understand how it happened, as that can help in the healing process and teach us what to avoid so that we do not make the same mistakes.

Yes, she should have taken the time to recognize that her "romantic" love for her husband was gone and cut it off before persuing another relationship. (I specify romantic love because I believe it is possible she still loves him in some manner or another and is likely very confused about her emotions right now.) The thing is though that sins like this progress so slowly, so gradually, on such a slippery slope that one often doesn't even realize how deeply entrenched they are until it is too late. Now, while I haven't been adulterous, I have been guilty of sexual sin. I too went through a process to recognize what my triggers were, what pushed me along that path to the final point of the sin. Some things that others did certainly played a part in setting up the environment, but the ultimate decision was my own. I alone am responsible for what I did. Understanding what led me to make such an erroneous decision lets me know what to watch for and avoid so that I never get caught up in the same or similar mistakes ever again.

Your post sounds very bitter, and I can understand why. You were victimized, but your situation also is not quite the same as Rimmer's. While Rimmer was victimized by his wife's adulterous actions, she was first victimized by his abusive actions. While that does not excuse her sin, it does help explain it- and Rimmer needs time, understanding, and healing to come to terms with that.

Rimmer- I think at this point you need to try to stop reading into everything she says and does so much. There are any number of possible things going through her head and/or motives for her actions. There is no way to know what she is planning or deciding for certain until she is clear about what she wants and acts on it.

While there are certainly some directions that these kind of situations commonly fall into, I have talked to enough people to know that what most commonly happens isn't always the case. Every situation is entirely unique. I don't know your wife. Don't know her mind or her heart. I have no idea if she will follow the common path or choose another path entirely. At this point, anything is possible.

All the guessing and second guessing and trying to make sense of what she is doing isn't going to help you any. It's time to focus on yourself and let her focus on herself. When you can face this with a calm interior, with confidence in yourself, and enough trust in God that you can be happy with any outcome, I think you will be on the right track.

[Juan_P]

10-07-2011 04:19 AM JudoMinja

You were victimized

No, not at all, I don't feel nor believe I was victimized. Victim I'm not, Survived infidelity -maybe

Your post sounds very bitter

I'd say angry at adulterers who claim that other peoples actions caused or helped them to commit the sin ie the so called explanation of what lead her to adultery starting with and mainly due to the abusive relationship with her husband.

Like:

While Rimmer was victimized by his wife's adulterous actions, she was first victimized by his abusive actions. While that does not excuse her sin, it does help explain it

Not at all. It doesn't help explain it because being beaten or abused or verbally abused doesn't cause adultery. What explains the wife's action is her attraction to the new guy, her need for sex with someone else, and her selfish desire to get what she wants even if it meant breaking covenents she made with God, let alone with her husband. If this 'abusive actions' you say can explain someone committing adultery then most people abused would become adulterers and that isn't the case. By the way, notice that there isn't a scripture reference that says "don't beat up or abuse your wife because if you do she may become an adulteress" . No , it speaks to the sinner and says "do not commit adultery" !

To help undestand better what I'm saying here: this is like saying that the husband strays because the wife stopped using make-up, let herself go, became fat etc. But if that were the case then every beautiful woman would be married to a faithful husband...again not the case at all.

Adultery is an individual sin, committed when the other spouse isn't looking or knows about it. That's why the feel guilty and confess their 'mistake' later on and not during the act.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Juan_P

[Sali]

Juan, what you have to understand is that when someone is in an abusive relationship, they have been beat down so much. They become emotionally very vulnerable. So when someone reaches out with some kindness, it is like being giving food when you have been starved for so long. Don't think I'm condoning, because I'm not. But try not to think that it's being used as an excuse. It's a slippery slope of an emotionally vulnerable person who because of this, may not be thinking rationally, just grabbing for any kind of love and kindness that has not been a part of their lives for so long.

It's really not as simple as saying that they should leave before they commit adultery. They often love the abuser and want things to work out. They get caught in the cycle of abuse. Promises are made and broken, but they stay in hope. An abused person will generally not leave that relationship until they are strong enough too and that can take a while, if ever. If someone offers them a ray of hope to get out without having to be strong enough to stand on their own, it can be just too appealing to reject in their vulnerable state of mind.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Sali

[Juan_P]

Sali, I think you are actually condoning there. Even if it were true that 'grabbing for any kind of love and kindness' is what they are doing, still why then have the sex bit when you both know it is wrong, and wrong due to temple covenants and promises to God not necessarily to the husband, even if they are in a vulnerable state of mind.In that vulnerable state of mind the worst she could do is imagine a fairytale marriage or have one of these virtual affairs. But once they own up to it and confess, they are excommunicated anyways, vulnerable state of mind or not because its the sin that next to murder.

And you're saying that a abused person will not necessarily leave that relationship -which i agree with as in the battered wife syndrom- however in this case here she left long ago. He wrote in the OP that 'She is fairly cold to me' , he wrote that she is reluctant to pray with him, she refused out right a blessing from him that their Bishop pushed for which could've helped the situation but she refused it, and when they did pray together she lead and only put him at fault for the situation. She is just plain lying through her teeth because she loves the other dude and not her husband, period. This isn't a person, a wife, who is battered and vulnerable even if he now thinks he was abusive to her in the past (and chances are that he probably wasn't). That part is just the victim blaming himself for her mistakes. She's was on the road to adultery long ago and had he not being abusive she would've found another excuse. But like I said before, after all the exuses are said and claimed and blamed for her actions, she -the adulteress- is excommunicated anyways! that fact should say something to you as to how the Lord see's this issues.

[Guest]

He wrote in the OP that 'She is fairly cold to me' , he wrote that she is reluctant to pray with him, she refused out right a blessing from him that their Bishop pushed for which could've helped the situation but she refused it, and when they did pray together she lead and only put him at fault for the situation. She is just plain lying through her teeth because she loves the other dude and not her husband, period. This isn't a person, a wife, who is battered and vulnerable even if he now thinks he was abusive to her in the past (and chances are that he probably wasn't). That part is just the victim blaming himself for her mistakes. She's was on the road to adultery long ago and had he not being abusive she would've found another excuse. But like I said before, after all the exuses are said and claimed and blamed for her actions, she -the adulteress- is excommunicated anyways! that fact should say something to you as to how the Lord see's this issues.

" 36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man. "

That's from D&C 121. I think it would be a very good chapter for both you and the OP to study.

When a man has used his hands to hurt a woman and his words to tear her down, why should she feel at all like he should lay his hands on her head and open that same mouth to give her a blessing. I sure wouldn't!

She's a battered woman. She hasn't had the courage to leave for years. She finally found it in the wrong way, but again we don't know if this woman physically strayed or not. The fact is, she left a long time ago because she was not being treated the way a righteous priesthood holder is supposed to treat his help meet.

At least the OP is repentant about being an abuser.

[JudoMinja]

Juan-

What good does it do to bash the wife of the OP? What good does it do to say she "should have done this" or she "should have done that"? What good does it do to point out how wrong she is? She is not the one here seeking advice, and if she were, pointing out all her flaws wouldn't be much help anyway. All we would gain from heading down that road is bitterness, anger, and despair.

Yes, the wife is responsible for her own adulterous actions. Yes, being abused does not always lead one to adultery. But why take it any farther than that? It does us no good to pick apart and examine the wife because she is not the one here looking for advice or walking the path of repentance.

When we are faced with trials, all we can do is examine ourselves and what changes we can make in ourselves. I went through quite a bit of therapy after getting out of a very abusive situation. Dwelling on everything my ex did to me that was wrong or how it was his choice and his responsibility didn't help me. What helped was looking at myself, what I had done or said that contributed to the situation, and then learning how to change myself. No one is guiltless in a marriage with problems. Even if Rimmer had never uttered a hurtful word or physically harmed his wife, it would be better for him to examine himself and better himself than it would be to dwell on the changes his wife should be making, because he cannot change her. Only she has the power to change herself, and only Rimmer has the power to change himself.

When examining the actions of the adulterer, or abuser, or addict, or any other kind of sin or crime- we learn more from trying to understand their mindset and reach out in compassion than we do from pointing the finger of blame. Anger and bitterness cause us to close ourselves up and puts a halt on the learning process. It is unChristlike and not at all helpful.

If Rimmer's wife were here asking for help, I am sure the members of the board would be asking her to focus on what she could do for herself to seek out repentance and the best path for her. Since she is not, we are seeking to help Rimmer be compassionate toward his wife and indentify any personal changes he can make in himself to come out stronger from this experience.

[Sali]

Sali, I think you are actually condoning there. Even if it were true that 'grabbing for any kind of love and kindness' is what they are doing, still why then have the sex bit when you both know it is wrong, and wrong due to temple covenants and promises to God not necessarily to the husband, even if they are in a vulnerable state of mind.In that vulnerable state of mind the worst she could do is imagine a fairytale marriage or have one of these virtual affairs. But once they own up to it and confess, they are excommunicated anyways, vulnerable state of mind or not because its the sin that next to murder.

And you're saying that a abused person will not necessarily leave that relationship -which i agree with as in the battered wife syndrom- however in this case here she left long ago. He wrote in the OP that 'She is fairly cold to me' , he wrote that she is reluctant to pray with him, she refused out right a blessing from him that their Bishop pushed for which could've helped the situation but she refused it, and when they did pray together she lead and only put him at fault for the situation. She is just plain lying through her teeth because she loves the other dude and not her husband, period. This isn't a person, a wife, who is battered and vulnerable even if he now thinks he was abusive to her in the past (and chances are that he probably wasn't). That part is just the victim blaming himself for her mistakes. She's was on the road to adultery long ago and had he not being abusive she would've found another excuse. But like I said before, after all the exuses are said and claimed and blamed for her actions, she -the adulteress- is excommunicated anyways! that fact should say something to you as to how the Lord see's this issues.

Not condoning. I never said it was right, but it does help to try to understand why a person in an abusive situation might make the wrong decisions.

[Windseeker]

I have to agree with Juan here. Under the disclaimer that Adultery is wrong many seem very sympathetic towards it in this case. No one seems comfortable trying to understand and justify why the abuse occurred and what part the spouse played in it. Neither the abuse nor adultery is justified. Both break sacred temple covenants.

I think the world is ever ready to provide the spouse with ample justification to completely destroy her family as well as another it sounds like. I don’t think it’s necessary for members of the church to excuse it. In the end they both will lose but it’s going to be much more difficult for the spouse to get back on the right track in this case while the OP sounds like he already is well into the process of self examination and change.

Whether the divorce occurs or not there will be no recovery for this family if there is no forgiveness and forgiveness will be much easier for those who don’t justify their behavior.

[Juan_P]

Juan-

What good does it do to bash the wife of the OP? What good does it do to say she "should have done this" or she "should have done that"? What good does it do to point out how wrong she is? She is not the one here seeking advice,

Hopefull open Rimmer's eyes to the fact that if she did this massive wrong, she committed this massive sin, then she and not rimmer is to blame for the marriage breakdown. She has destroyed this marriage and her adultery has destroyed the family, not Rimmer and his sometime abusive language.

What good does it do to point out how wrong she is? Hopefully also help Rimmer to stop blaming himself for the actions of the lying and cheating wife, soon to be ex-wife.

[Juan_P]

Juan-

When we are faced with trials, all we can do is examine ourselves and what changes we can make in ourselves.

Sure, but sometimes we also have to go to mother Justice, ie to God or to the courts, and point to the bad person and openingly say "This is not my fault, it's your fault, and you need to pay for this wrong you have done" That enpowers victims like no other action can. Abuse victims especially more than any benefit from it and it empowers them to comence a new life and hopefully a better life. (and a cheated on spouse is an abuse victim in my book)

Nowadays, we don't punish adultery like we once did, ie with jail time or with the adulterer loosing everything, but the 'badness' of the sin is still the same even if the civil authorities have minimized its consequences.

[Juan_P]

"; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man. "

That's from D&C 121. I think it would be a very good chapter for both you and the OP to study.

When a man has used his hands to hurt a woman and his words to tear her down, why should she feel at all like he should lay his hands on her head and open that same mouth to give her a blessing. I sure wouldn't!

She's a battered woman. She hasn't had the courage to leave for years.

At least the OP is repentant about being an abuser.

In the narrative, somewhere, it said that they met with the Bishop, he was repentant and that as part of the healing process for the couple the Bishop recommended that he bless her more oftern. His instructions. Probably because the bishop felt the abuse was either over with or it wasn't as bad as he claimed, don't know, but he has given instructions there to show that he, Bishop, thinks the man is a worthy priesthood holder now. So in this case 121 wouldn't apply anymore since the man has repented from his sins, as you point out here too. So her reluctance to have a blessing at his hands points towards a problem, probably, with pride which is one of the precurses of adultery anyways.

[Juan_P]

"

She hasn't had the courage to leave for years. She finally found it in the wrong way, but again we don't know if this woman physically strayed or not. The fact is, she left a long time ago because she was not being treated the way a righteous priesthood holder is supposed to treat his help meet. .

Yeah, she did leave the marriage a long time ago, its clear from the OP when he writes she is cold to him, flirts with another man and he knows that she hasn't told him the whole story.

To my ears this is typical of adultery when it is at the start of the relationship. It remains to be seen if they, the cheaters, will survive as a couple.

[Juan_P]

I have to agree with Juan here. Under the disclaimer that Adultery is wrong many seem very sympathetic towards it in this case. No one seems comfortable trying to understand and justify why the abuse occurred and what part the spouse played in it. Neither the abuse nor adultery is justified. Both break sacred temple covenants.

I think the world is ever ready to provide the spouse with ample justification to completely destroy her family as well as another it sounds like. I don’t think it’s necessary for members of the church to excuse it. In the end they both will lose but it’s going to be much more difficult for the spouse to get back on the right track in this case while the OP sounds like he already is well into the process of self examination and change.

Whether the divorce occurs or not there will be no recovery for this family if there is no forgiveness and forgiveness will be much easier for those who don’t justify their behavior.

Well said.

Summs it up well:

Under the disclaimer that Adultery is wrong many seem very sympathetic towards it in this case. No one seems comfortable trying to understand and justify why the abuse occurred and what part the spouse played in it

People don't find justifications or explanations for why abuse, verbal and physical or sexual hapenes (eg she naged him too much so he beat her or the wife didn't give him affection so he turned to his daughters etc), so they shouldn't also find justifications or explanations for adultery, the sin next to murder in seriousness.

[Guest]

As long as we're clear on who has the bigger sin. That's what's important.

[JudoMinja]

People don't find justifications or explanations for why abuse, verbal and physical or sexual hapenes (eg she naged him too much so he beat her or the wife didn't give him affection so he turned to his daughters etc), so they shouldn't also find justifications or explanations for adultery, the sin next to murder in seriousness.

The point is to be able to move on and recover from the experience, and that requires at least three things- 1. To understand the mindset of the one who hurt you so that you can be compassionate and forgive, 2. To draw the line of fault- recognize what is their fault and what is your fault without getting the two mixed up, and 3. To understand the changes you can personally make in yourself to avoid a similar experience.

Understanding that the adultery was her choice and therefore her fault, not his, is important but only one part of the recovery process. Focusing on only that will stunt recovery and cause one to become bitter and angry instead of learning anything from the experience and being able to move on.

Let me share an example from my own life- In all my experiences with my ex probably the most traumatizing one I went through and the hardest to come to terms with was an instance where he threatened me with a carving knife. If I had focused only on the fault finding- (ie. He chose to come after me with a knife. Nothing I did excuses that choice. It was entirely his decision and no fault of my own. It was wrong and terrible and he should never have done that.) Then yes, I am liberated from taking on a feeling of blame that is not my own. That is all true and very important to come to recognize. It was not my fault. It was his choice, a wrong choice, and it doesn't matter what I did, he should not have done that. But what do I learn if I stop there? Nothing. I've just relieved an unneccesary burden of guilt that I was carrying (a good thing) and now begin to harbor feelings of anger and bitterness (a bad thing).

To really learn something from the experience, we have to examine the whole scenario. First, to understand the mindset he was in, I have to try to understand what triggered his choice. He had been taking a shower, my razor had slipped onto the floor and he'd stepped on it. His pain triggered a gut reaction to lash out in anger and he yelled at me from the shower. His yelling triggered a gut reaction of fear in me and I yelled back defensively. He'd expected an apology and sympathy, so this angered him more and triggered a desire/need to exert control over the situation. He came out of the shower to argue with me and I opted to ignore the argument, which also angered him more and led to the end result of him threatening me with the knife.

When I understand his behavior and choices, I learn something and can feel compassion toward him. I've done a lot of studying and striving to understand the mindset of the person who becomes abusive, more so than can be shared in a single post and not the intent of this thread. That studying has led me toward being able to forgive my ex, to let go my feelings of hurt and anger, and also to recognize warning signs for potential problems when I am dating.

Even more helpful- I examined my own behavior and choices. I sought to learn how I contributed to the situation and changes I could make in myself to avoid becoming a target. I learned how to properly "pick my fights", stand up for myself, set boundaries and limitations that I won't let others cross, and expect others to respect me because I respect myself and recognize my own self-worth. I am a stronger more capable person because I sought to learn from my experience. I wanted it to have more meaning than just a traumatizing experience that justified me being angry with my ex.

Yes, there should be sympathy for the adulterer, just as there should be sympathy for the abuser. To lack sympathy is to lack compassion and forgiveness, and remember that it is required of us to forgive ALL men (and women). It is not our place to judge. Judgement is left to God alone. I have forgiven my ex. I understand why he acted as he did. I understand what I did to put myself in that situation and contribute to his wrong choices. I know where to draw the line of blame, accept what I did wrong, and do not put on my shoulders anything that is/was solely his responsibility. That is the mark of recovery, and that cannot be obtained by simply focusing on what the other person did wrong.

Most importantly, I do not have the power to change my ex. I only have the power to change myself. Just as you could not change your ex, and Rimmer cannot change his. You were able to move on when you were able to overcome your hurt and pain and make changes in yourself. That is why I think it is unproductive to focus on pointing the finger of blame. It does little good to focus on something we can't change.

[Juan_P]

....

To really learn something from the experience, we have to examine the whole scenario. First, to understand the mindset he was in, I have to try to understand what triggered his choice. He had been taking a shower, my razor had slipped onto the floor and he'd stepped on it. His pain triggered a gut reaction to lash out in anger and he yelled at me from the shower. His yelling triggered a gut reaction of fear in me and I yelled back defensively. He'd expected an apology and sympathy, so this angered him more and triggered a desire/need to exert control over the situation. He came out of the shower to argue with me and I opted to ignore the argument, which also angered him more and led to the end result of him threatening me with the knife.

When I understand his behavior and choices, I learn something and can feel compassion toward him. I've done a lot of studying and striving to understand the mindset of the person who becomes abusive, more so than can be shared in a single post and not the intent of this thread. That studying has led me toward being able to forgive my ex, to let go my feelings of hurt and anger, and also to recognize warning signs for potential problems when I am dating.

I sought to learn how I contributed to the situation and changes I could make in myself to avoid becoming a target. I learned how to properly "pick my fights", stand up for myself, set boundaries and limitations that I won't let others cross, and expect others to respect me because I respect myself and recognize my own self-worth. I am a stronger more capable person because I sought to learn from my experience. I wanted it to have more meaning than just a traumatizing experience that justified me being angry with my ex.

Yes, there should be sympathy for the adulterer, just as there should be sympathy for the abuser. To lack sympathy is to lack compassion and forgiveness, and remember that it is required of us to forgive ALL men (and women). It is not our place to judge. Judgement is left to God alone. I have forgiven my ex. I understand why he acted as he did. I understand what I did to put myself in that situation and contribute to his wrong choices. I know where to draw the line of blame, accept what I did wrong,

I'd say your reasoning seems good and proper but it is fundamentaly flawed. You can't 'contribute to the situation" where other peoples sins are involved. Its like saying that a woman who goes shopping in a miniskirt will 'contribute' to her own rape, or saying that a 12 year old girl is 'contributing' to her being abused by her own father if she wears make-up or is wants a cuddle from her dad, or uncle, or saying that that Able did something, ie had an aceptable offering, that contributed to his murder? Its an example of false reasoning.

JudoMinja, you are also blaming yourself for you ex's lack of control and his propensity to violence. He did bad with the knife incident, the most you did was screem, which is bad too, ie two bad which don't make a right....but you don't have to 'recognize' any contribution to his actions because otherwise you would also be guilty of the knife incident as an accomplice -which you weren't.

We do have to forgive the sinner, forgive an adulterer but that involves not sending them to hell anymore and allowing them the priviledge of our company and association.

Also we can and should judge other, as long as that judgement is done in righteousness. We judge people all the time and as potential Gods we actuall need to develop those 'judgement' skills. I think you are wrong in that belief too, of not judging others.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Juan_P

[Sali]

I am just so grateful that we will be judged by Christ's standards of mercy rather than man's standards of justice. Even though sins of abuse and adultery are committed, Jesus Christ knows we are human and will not react perfectly and will judge us accordingly, according to our individual circumstances. So what 'we' may want to see punished with justice, will be dealt with by mercy. Thank goodness for that! Because only if I'm perfect do I want to be judged only with justice.

[Juan_P]

I am just so grateful that we will be judged by Christ's standards of mercy rather than man's standards of justice. Even though sins of abuse and adultery are committed, Jesus Christ knows we are human and will not react perfectly and will judge us accordingly, according to our individual circumstances. So what 'we' may want to see punished with justice, will be dealt with by mercy. Thank goodness for that! Because only if I'm perfect do I want to be judged only with justice.

Mercy only comes into the equation if the person is repentant.

I don't have a problem with that. If the adulterer is sorry and truly repentant he should be forgiven. However experience tells us that these types of big sins aren't overcomed easily.

Even after repenting there are consequences. Look at what has happened to the repentant Bill Clinton. Whenever people hear his name they also think of Lewinsky.

Proverbs 6:24-35 shows or explains a bit of how difficult it is to completely overcome adultery.

By the way, strictly speaking, we will go through several layers of judgement seats before we reach Jesus. ie a bishop will first judge us, then a stake president, then all the way up to the twelve apostles then to the patriarchs and heads of dispensations, before Adam, and then Jesus. Obviously most of humanity will be judged by a bishop and fail that step, with good faithful members, who have repented of their sins including adultery, reaching the apostles level and eventually Jesus judgement seat. But that's a technical issue.

Saying that Jesus judges us is akin to saying that the supreme court is our judge really but it take time to reach that level.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Juan_P

[JudoMinja]

I'd say your reasoning seems good and proper but it is fundamentaly flawed. You can't 'contribute to the situation" where other peoples sins are involved. Its like saying that a woman who goes shopping in a miniskirt will 'contribute' to her own rape, or saying that a 12 year old girl is 'contributing' to her being abused by her own father if she wears make-up or is wants a cuddle from her dad, or uncle, or saying that that Able did something, ie had an aceptable offering, that contributed to his murder? Its an example of false reasoning.

JudoMinja, you are also blaming yourself for you ex's lack of control and his propensity to violence. He did bad with the knife incident, the most you did was screem, which is bad too, ie two bad which don't make a right....but you don't have to 'recognize' any contribution to his actions because otherwise you would also be guilty of the knife incident as an accomplice -which you weren't.

We do have to forgive the sinner, forgive an adulterer but that involves not sending them to hell anymore and allowing them the priviledge of our company and association.

Also we can and should judge other, as long as that judgement is done in righteousness. We judge people all the time and as potential Gods we actuall need to develop those 'judgement' skills. I think you are wrong in that belief too, of not judging others.

I agree with you to an extent. In every crime or sin, there is a line that is crossed by the individual choosing to commit the wrong. A line that the victim plays no part in and has no responsibility over. However, one of the first things taught in a self-defense class is how to avoid situations where one might need to defend themself. If we know what a "predator" looks for and we do nothing to defend ourselves, yes we do share some of the blame for the situation. Just as it is our own fault if we fall away from our testimony because we fail to "put on the armor of God". Not creating and maintaining a proper defense is foolish and irresponsible. We shouldn't have to go to levels of paranoia, but we should at least be cautiously prepared.

A predator will have few victims to prey upon if we learn what they look for and build a solid defense. Because our understanding is flawed and life itself carries a certain amount of risk, we can not build a perfect defense where no one is ever harmed, but if we completely ignore good counsel and warnings of caution simply because the sin is "not our fault" then I think we do share some of the blame. In my experience with my ex, I made some wrong choices as well that ignored good defensive counsel to put myself in that situation. I allowed it to happen by failing to draw a line on what I would tolerate. While I was not responsible for the violence itself, I was responsible for putting myself in the line of fire. I could have chosen to put an end to it, and I finally did choose that when I left.

That is what I meant about recognizing my contribution to the situation. There were decisions I made or failed to make that allowed the problem to continue and perpetuate. I accept my responsibility for those decisions while also letting go of any false sense of responsibility for his decisions. I know it is not my fault he was an angry and violent person with little to no impulse control. But some responsibility for the situation does lie with me. Accepting that responsibility is just as empowering as lettng go of the blame that is not mine, because it allows me to make changes. Without recognizing this, I am left powerless- just a victim who was targeted and had no control over the situation. By making changes in myself though, I do have control and can prevent myself from falling victim to a similar situation.

I had to make a judgment call, yes. I should have send it is not our place to judge people. I judged the situation, judged his actions, but did not judge him. With that judgment call, I knew that it was best to put distance between us. I think the same goes for any other situation, and that "righteous judgment" is when we assess the health and safety of particular courses of action based on history, signs of repentance, compatability, etc., and of course through thoughtful prayer and inspiration. I still believe that my ex is a good person capable of repenting and finding happiness, but that I am not capable of helping him nor would it be safe for me to attempt it.

I think that we often label people based on their sins and purport it to be "righteous judgment", while these labels just cause us to treat them coldly and feel justified in our own behavior. When we say it is ALL "so-and-so's" fault and I carry no fault or blame, we really are becoming self-righteous and indignant.

[apexviper13]

The answers some people give...

Rimmer, you admitted you were abusive but you're willing to repent as it seems. Members of the church take serious matters much lighter than they should. First of all if a member of the church cheats on their spouse then the spouse is required to take it to the bishop/branch president. Second of all there is no "who committed the bigger sin" in this. As I said, going by how you've been on here, you've repented of the abuse and those who repent of the sins God remembers those sins no more.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Doctrine and Covenants 42:24 Thou shalt not commit adultery; and he that committeth adultery, and repenteth not, shall be cast out.

God couldn't have put it any simpler than He did. God didn't say "Thou shalt not commit adultery unless thine spouse hath abused thee." If she's not repentant for what she did then yes, she will wish she did. No, you are not to blame. A person could look at the past abuse and use that as an excuse if they wanted but a person's sin is their own sin, not someone else's. You didn't force her to cheat on you, she did that herself. You have every reason not to trust her. And you even said it wasn't a one time thing, it went on for several weeks.

[Sali]

Deleted.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Sali

[JudoMinja]

Rimmer, I hope you are able to get the help that you need to overcome your issues that you have. In fact, I think you have a harder road to go than your wife. She has the repentance process, but you have a lot of soul searching and hard work to do to enable the changes you wish to make. I hear a lot of acknowledgement of responsibility from you and that is fantastic. That is half the battle.

Actually, I think her road is going to be harder since, from the sound of things, she is not admitting she's done anything wrong or being repentant. They are both going to have work to do and changes to make if they are going to better themselves. If she continues to ignore that she has also done wrong, her road is going to be far bumpier than Rimmer's.

[Sali]

LOL JudoMinja. I deleted my post but unfortunately you were faster than me. I realised as I read back through it that it didn't read exactly how I meant it to.

I agree with you totally. Her road without admitting any wrong will be far bumpier. But I was alluding to the fact that for someone who has abusive tendencies, (and I am not saying abuse is worse than adultery) that there is going to be a lot of hard work and pain in the effort to change this about oneself. Rimmer, is really going to have to do a lot of soul searching and possibly some of the things that he may find out about himself will be hard to swallow and very painful. I think it will be very enriching and very enlightening for him to go through this journey of self discovery.

[beenthere]

Wow.

I never meant to imply that either sin was greater. What good does it do anyone to compare sins anyway? The only person you can compare yourself with is...yourself. The improvement you make. What happened happened. You cant take it back. No matter how much you wish you could.

I was merely trying to give Rimmer maybe a glimpse into her feelings. Not to justify her actions. But to maybe help him have some compassion for her. Help him to be able to forgive her and not be bitter and angry. Those things only build and lead to hatred. Which, may hurt her, but it may not. We dont know her true feelings. But it will hurt the one harboring that feeling. Believe me I know. Its pure poison to ones spirit.

Sometimes we hold on to our anger because we want to...We deserve to. And in many circumstances that is probably true. But please dont let it take over. It is very easy to do and soooo hard to let go of the more those roots are allowed to grow (Im not even sure I could now. I have no idea how.) If they are allowed to take solid root, you will see yourself change. One day you will look in the mirror and you wont know who that person is. Dont let that happen to you.

The one thing all of this has helped me do is be able to look at others and feel true compassion. Everyone experiences pain, in some form or another. Everyone causes pain at some point as well. If we can look at them and think that they may have been through the same hell as us, maybe we can look at them in a more christlike way.

My hope is that everyone here diligently seeks peace and true joy in this life, and finds it.

Dont give up.