Thus Saith The Lord On Um, Well...number Two's

[Serg]

Just for you to know Jason, my deist friend...garments are not sacred on their own, for they are clothes just as all else are, but their holiness comes within the COVENANT that a HOLY being like GOD makes with us in the Temple...and they are a REMINDER of HOLY COVENANTS...so learn more about it, we don't make clothes holy, GOD does... AND the FIVE pointed star i refer is not the one of DAVID, but another one adopted by Israel after Judah's tragedy...the same that Constantine used in his royal seal... And it was an example of an attack to Jo Sm, not a reference to one of the many you make...

The problem here is not about clothes or theological point of views, but of your BEHAVIOR within a "theological" discussion...

Dont you have in your little site, a word that says : Every human being should take the time to write something that has some significance to them. Every one, right or wrong, should have the space wherein they may take notice of their own beliefs and feelings. This is extremely important, so that you may take the time to express your innermost thoughts...

A little bit difficult for him if you are around...LOL

Please WATCH your step.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 19 2005, 12:21 PM

Even if everybody else on planet Earth believed the story of Adam and Eve was a myth, it wouldn't affect the fact that I know that story is true, as far as translated and understood correctly.

And, No, I don't gotta love the secularization of our society, with so many people running around saying one thing or another, with so many people who don't really know what the truth is.

←

Absolutely.... TRUTH IS TRUTH even if there is only one who knows it... on the earth... #s dont make or break truth...

And divine truth can only be known through those who are willing to connect with its divine source. Therein lay the reason for the secularization of our society... fewer and fewer are living a life worthy of this divine connection...

[Jason]

Originally posted by Serg@Oct 19 2005, 12:46 PM

Just for you to know Jason, my deist friend...garments are not sacred on their own, for they are clothes just as all else are, but their holiness comes within the COVENANT that a HOLY being like GOD makes with us in the Temple...and they are a REMINDER of HOLY COVENANTS...

Funny, but the Creator made man, and gave us the will do to as we please. That is the only covanant the Creator has made. All else is hearsay and speculation.

so learn more about it, we don't make clothes holy, GOD does...

Then why do you have to buy your garments from a Church approved distributor, as opposed to the old days when you could buy a union suit and sew and cut open the appropriate marks. (You did know that garments used to have open marks in them, right, O wise one? Just like the temple veils....)

  The problem here is not about clothes or theological point of views, but of your BEHAVIOR within a "theological" discussion...

There's nothing wrong with my behavior, other than you just don't like it. Guess what? I don't really care what you think.

Dont you have in your little site, a word that says : Every human being should take the time to write something that has some significance to them. Every one, right or wrong, should have the space wherein they may take notice of their own beliefs and feelings. This is extremely important, so that you may take the time to express your innermost thoughts...  A little bit difficult for him if you are around...LOL

If you're not capable of dealing with what I say, then put me on ignore and move on with your life. I really don't care.

Please WATCH your step.

Now, where I come from, that's a threat. I don't like threats. It upset's me. I'd really like you to apologize. In fact, I insist.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 19 2005, 12:21 PM

Even if everybody else on planet Earth believed the story of Adam and Eve was a myth, it wouldn't affect the fact that I know that story is true, as far as translated and understood correctly.

And, No, I don't gotta love the secularization of our society, with so many people running around saying one thing or another, with so many people who don't really know what the truth is.

←

Do you know what Kant has to say about things truly existing?

[Ray]

If you believe it is an idea worth sharing or spreading around, please tell.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Mar 5 2004, 05:02 PM

Here it is in NIV English...

Deuteronomy 23

9 When you are encamped against your enemies, keep away from everything impure.

10 If one of your men is unclean because of a nocturnal emission, he is to go outside the camp and stay there.

11 But as evening approaches he is to wash himself, and at sunset he may return to the camp.

12 Designate a place outside the camp where you can go to relieve yourself.

13 As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement.

14 For the LORD your God moves about in your camp to protect you and to deliver your enemies to you. Your camp must be holy, so that he will not see among you anything indecent and turn away from you.

←

BIZ: What's really crazy about that passage is the idea that god would "turn away" from "moving among" them by the presence of poo. Why would god care about that? D'ya think he would have a problem changing diapers? Eh?

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Starsky@Mar 5 2004, 09:14 PM

Good grief....and you all are adults right? I mean...geezeeee

as for the coats...they were coats of skin and being they came from God...I am sure He just twinkled the animals and had the skins made into coats...

The animals fulfilled their mission...

←

BIZ: That's right! God is magical, and can simply will anything he wants to happen. 'Splains a LOT of things, from Noahs Ark and THAT mess to Exodus. Guess that means he could simply "twinkle" away the turds that might be messing up "camp" instead of being offended by them and "turning away".

God behaves in some interesting ways and has some interesting ideas. Sheesh.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 19 2005, 10:21 AM

Even if everybody else on planet Earth believed the story of Adam and Eve was a myth, it wouldn't affect the fact that I know that story is true, as far as translated and understood correctly.

←

Gotta love it... nobody but you Ray.

[Serg]

Well Jason, if i offended you with "watch your step", then i am truly sorry, but thats a precaution you ought to take. Now as to the only covenant God made with man was creating him, where you took that idea from? From reason, religion or your continued hatred towards myths as the Bible at all, well then, i am sorry but be careful with what you say not for your sake only but for others.

As to the cuts in the garments, i believe much has been said, and i wont insist on treating sacred things with you that way, BUT, it would be very helpful to know that NOW we can buy it from the very church and not sew it ourselves...LOL.

No i dont have anything against you, REALLY, i try my hardest to love everyone, i just told you to behave properly... but now i see you are an adult, so beat it...

***********************************************************

If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.(Psalms 130:3)

[Jason]

Originally posted by Please@Oct 18 2005, 05:43 PM

I hold religions in general, and Mormonism in particular with contempt. That's no secret. But I fail to see why I should hold sacred that which clearly is not. The naked human form is more sacred than any article of clothing made by the hands of man. Indeed, mankind cannot make something sacred, and all the people of the world cannot make it so.

Jason,

Just to make sure others understand that your statements... though made with authority,... have really no more value to us than Mormonism has for you... :)

←

That's what you hope.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 19 2005, 12:21 PM

Even if everybody else on planet Earth believed the story of Adam and Eve was a myth, it wouldn't affect the fact that I know that story is true, as far as translated and understood correctly.

Kant once taught about "existence" by explaining the difference between one hundred possible crowns and one hundred real crowns. There is no difference in the concept of them, but the one hundred real crowns exist not only in your thoughts, as the the possible crowns, but also outside of them, among things.

The problem with the "existence" of Adam and Eve, is that they only exist in your mind (and on paper). Just like the Book of Mormon, there is nothing outside of the mind of the people who believe to suggest that anything written in that text ever truly existed. It's all true and real to those who believe, but without the belief that you have in your mind, there is no existence of any of it.

[Setheus]

How times have changed....now some boot Marine or Army private is assigned "s*it buring". They take all the human waste and put it in a giant tub and pour fuel over it and stir until its all gone. Yes they actually have to sit there and stir it while it burns. This makes me glad to be in the Navy. Because when I'm on land the Army or Marine grunts take care of the dirty work...and when I'm stationed on a ship they have actual plumbing with flush toilets and when its time to perge of the waste they have two ways to dispose of it...pull into port and hook up to the pier and send it into the local cities sewer system or go out into international waters and just dump the tanks and cruise away.

HOO-YAH!!

Did forget to put down the times I dont like being Navy....sometimes when I'm swimming all sneaky like around a ship's hull or a pier and I need to pee, I just go right there but its ok because its all warm and that helps.....as for the "other"...we try to plan ahead and not eat for half a day before a mission. And if its an extended mission there are actually certain MRE's you can eat that will clog you up like a bear getting ready for the winter!

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 20 2005, 08:15 AM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 19 2005, 12:21 PM

Even if everybody else on planet Earth believed the story of Adam and Eve was a myth, it wouldn't affect the fact that I know that story is true, as far as translated and understood correctly.

Kant once taught about "existence" by explaining the difference between one hundred possible crowns and one hundred real crowns. There is no difference in the concept of them, but the one hundred real crowns exist not only in your thoughts, as the the possible crowns, but also outside of them, among things.

The problem with the "existence" of Adam and Eve, is that they only exist in your mind (and on paper). Just like the Book of Mormon, there is nothing outside of the mind of the people who believe to suggest that anything written in that text ever truly existed. It's all true and real to those who believe, but without the belief that you have in your mind, there is no existence of any of it.

←

If I was still a Moderator, I would have deleted what you just said, because you are on the Gospel board and you are now "bashing" our beliefs.

But since I can no longer do that, I will simply explain that your statement stating what is true and what is not true doesn't have any bearing on what is true either, because what is true is true no matter who does or doesn't believe it, and all we can do is try to find the truth until we do actually find it.

And Jason, believe it or not, I do know the story of Adam and Eve is true, despite anything you have to say to the contrary.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Ray+Oct 20 2005, 10:58 AM-->

Originally posted by Jason@Oct 20 2005, 08:15 AM

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 19 2005, 12:21 PM

Even if everybody else on planet Earth believed the story of Adam and Eve was a myth, it wouldn't affect the fact that I know that story is true, as far as translated and understood correctly.

Kant once taught about "existence" by explaining the difference between one hundred possible crowns and one hundred real crowns. There is no difference in the concept of them, but the one hundred real crowns exist not only in your thoughts, as the the possible crowns, but also outside of them, among things.

The problem with the "existence" of Adam and Eve, is that they only exist in your mind (and on paper). Just like the Book of Mormon, there is nothing outside of the mind of the people who believe to suggest that anything written in that text ever truly existed. It's all true and real to those who believe, but without the belief that you have in your mind, there is no existence of any of it.

←

If I was still a Moderator, I would have deleted what you just said, because you are on the Gospel board and you are now "bashing" our beliefs.

But since I can no longer do that, I will simply explain that your statement stating what is true and what is not true doesn't have any bearing on what is true either, because what is true is true no matter who does or doesn't believe it, and all we can do is try to find the truth until we do actually find it.

And Jason, believe it or not, I do know the story of Adam and Eve is true, despite anything you have to say to the contrary.

←

Ray, Im not bashing your beliefs. Im simply helping you establish that which exists in your mind alone, from that which exists independently from you. If it doesn't exist independent of your beliefs, then it doesn't exist.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Ray, Im not bashing your beliefs.  Im simply helping you establish that which exists in your mind alone, from that which exists independently from you.  If it doesn't exist independent of your beliefs, then it doesn't exist.

You know... it is getting real tiresome to hear you claim that everything we have is all in our mind... and again I wonder why you come to an LDS board. Your posts of late have been very close to nothing more than trolling and spamming....

[Jason]

Originally posted by Please@Oct 20 2005, 01:44 PM

Ray, Im not bashing your beliefs.  Im simply helping you establish that which exists in your mind alone, from that which exists independently from you.  If it doesn't exist independent of your beliefs, then it doesn't exist.

You know... it is getting real tiresome to hear you claim that everything we have is all in our mind... and again I wonder why you come to an LDS board. Your posts of late have been very close to nothing more than trolling and spamming....

←

Faith is by necessity in your mind. I don't have a problem with faith, what I have a problem with is insisting that things which exist only in your mind also exist in reality.

That's just dumb to think like that.

[Serg]

Well, i guess water never turns into wine at all with Jason...

Hey pal! Guess what? You dont believe almost nothing of what we 'believe exists in our minds only', but do you know what is really real??? YOU still HERE wanting to talk to us and visiting this chat!

We appreciate participation from you, just as we would appreciate RESPECT. P.D., Kant was a great thinker...

Best regards,

**********************************************************

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 20 2005, 12:51 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Oct 20 2005, 01:44 PM

Ray, Im not bashing your beliefs.  Im simply helping you establish that which exists in your mind alone, from that which exists independently from you.  If it doesn't exist independent of your beliefs, then it doesn't exist.

You know... it is getting real tiresome to hear you claim that everything we have is all in our mind... and again I wonder why you come to an LDS board. Your posts of late have been very close to nothing more than trolling and spamming....

←

Faith is by necessity in your mind. I don't have a problem with faith, what I have a problem with is insisting that things which exist only in your mind also exist in reality.

That's just dumb to think like that.

←

I have gone over this again and again and again and yet you still don’t get it.

Will you read what I am writing this time and try to understand me?

Here I go again, one more time.

Faith is another word for assurance. If you don’t believe me, you can look up the word “faith” in a thesaurus, but I assure you it is true.

From this point you should now be able to understand the idea that if someone has faith from God, they have an assurance from God, and that assurance normally indicates that something is true… and that assurance or the thing that is true is something that can exist not only in someone’s mind.

In the first place, if you have an assurance from God, you have an assurance which has come from God, and not from your own mind… and anyone who has received an assurance from God can be assured that the faith has come from God and not from their own mind.

In the second place, the thing which God has assured someone is true can and often does exist outside the mind of God himself, and in that case, the person who receives faith has something else which exists outside of the mind of God.

For instance, if God were to assure you that Jesus is the Christ, you would have an assurance from God that Jesus is the Christ, and since Jesus Christ is a real person who actually lived and continues to live, you would have both an assurance from God and a knowledge of something which exists not only in the mind of the person who has received that faith or assurance from God.

Did you follow all of that?

In summary, faith from God is an assurance from God which can lead a person to a knowledge of the truth of things that actually exist, or did exists, or will exists, as long as the assurance is based on the truth. And coming from God, you can count the fact that His assurances are true, because Satan is the name we give to the person who tries to deceive us.

And btw, you can also receive an assurance of something that does exist only in your mind, or only in the mind of God, such as an assurance of the fact that God does love you and wants you to be happy.

And if you don’t believe me, Ask God for an assurance that what I have said is true, and as long as you Ask God with a real and sincere desire to know and follow His will, He will assure you of all the truth you care to ask Him about.

[Guest Member_Deleted]

Originally posted by Jason+Oct 20 2005, 01:51 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Please@Oct 20 2005, 01:44 PM

Ray, Im not bashing your beliefs.  Im simply helping you establish that which exists in your mind alone, from that which exists independently from you.  If it doesn't exist independent of your beliefs, then it doesn't exist.

You know... it is getting real tiresome to hear you claim that everything we have is all in our mind... and again I wonder why you come to an LDS board. Your posts of late have been very close to nothing more than trolling and spamming....

←

Faith is by necessity in your mind. I don't have a problem with faith, what I have a problem with is insisting that things which exist only in your mind also exist in reality.

That's just dumb to think like that.

←

Faith is not only in the mind. That may be why you never really had any. If it isn't in your heart and soul... it is not real faith.

[Jason]

I have gone over this again and again and again and yet you still don’t get it. Will you read what I am writing this time and try to understand me? Here I go again, one more time.

Ok. Just to make sure you know that Im paying attention, I'll give you a detailed, piece by piece response. I expect the same in return.

Faith is another word for assurance. If you don’t believe me, you can look up the word “faith” in a thesaurus, but I assure you it is true.

I don't believe you. In fact, your wrong. Definition of Faith

From this point you should now be able to understand the idea that if someone has faith from God, they have an assurance from God, and that assurance normally indicates that something is true… and that assurance or the thing that is true is something that can exist not only in someone’s mind.

Really? How? How can something that you feel exist outside of you? And remember, I've got my Kant text handy to refute any inconsistencies.

In the first place, if you have an assurance from God, you have an assurance which has come from God, and not from your own mind…

Prove it.

and anyone who has received an assurance from God can be assured that the faith has come from God and not from their own mind.

How?

In the second place, the thing which God has assured someone is true can and often does exist outside the mind of God himself, and in that case, the person who receives faith has something else which exists outside of the mind of God.

You first must prove that your god even exists. Then you have to prove that what you think you have assurance of actually came from this god.

Good luck little buddy.

For instance, if God were to assure you that Jesus is the Christ, you would have an assurance from God that Jesus is the Christ,

First you must demonstrate the above....

...and since Jesus Christ is a real person who actually lived and continues to live...

Now you have to prove that a man named Jesus Christ actually existed. Then you have to prove that he's still alive somewhere.

Wow, you've got your work cut out for you. But please, take your time.

... you would have both an assurance from God and a knowledge of something which exists not only in the mind of the person who has received that faith or assurance from God.

Yeah, if your god exists, and if Jesus were actually a real person, and if it was possible to receive an assurance from your god that you could prove to people had been received by you, et. al.

Did you follow all of that?

Yep.

In summary, faith from God is an assurance from God which can lead a person to a knowledge of the truth of things that actually exist, or did exists, or will exists, as long as the assurance is based on the truth. And coming from God, you can count the fact that His assurances are true, because Satan is the name we give to the person who tries to deceive us.

Uh oh. Now you have to prove that Satan is a real being too! You can skip that one for now if it'll make things easier.

And btw, you can also receive an assurance of something that does exist only in your mind, or only in the mind of God, such as an assurance of the fact that God does love you and wants you to be happy.

Well...you just work on the other stuff first, then we'll get to this.

And if you don’t believe me, Ask God for an assurance that what I have said is true, and as long as you Ask God with a real and sincere desire to know and follow His will, He will assure you of all the truth you care to ask Him about.

Ray, I know that you're a good hearted person deep down. And I appreciate that you want me to know that your god, who you think is the creator, loves me.

But I have a wife and kids who I actually know and can prove love me, and that's vastly more important in my opinion.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Please@Oct 20 2005, 03:42 PM

Faith is not only in the mind. That may be why you never really had any. If it isn't in your heart and soul... it is not real faith.

←

Oh it takes a lot of faith to be a Mormon. And I never let little things like Reason, History, or Doubt cloud my faith.

Then one day....

[Ray]

Ray: Faith is another word for assurance. If you don’t believe me, you can look up the word “faith” in a thesaurus, but I assure you it is true.

Jason: I don't believe you. In fact, your wrong. Definition of Faith

Ray: Try using a thesaurus.

From this point you should now be able to understand the idea that if someone has faith from God, they have an assurance from God, and that assurance normally indicates that something is true… and that assurance or the thing that is true is something that can exist not only in someone’s mind.

Jason: Really? How? How can something that you feel exist outside of you? And remember, I've got my Kant text handy to refute any inconsistencies.

Ray: By that feeling being given to someone else.

In the first place, if you have an assurance from God, you have an assurance which has come from God, and not from your own mind…

Jason: Prove it.

Ray: I said IF you have an assurance from God, THEN you would have an assurance which has come from God. Surely you can admit that much.

…and anyone who has received an assurance from God can be assured that the faith has come from God and not from their own mind.

Jason: How?

Ray: By God giving His assurance in a way that you know it didn’t come from yourself.

In the second place, the thing which God has assured someone is true can and often does exist outside the mind of God himself, and in that case, the person who receives faith has something else which exists outside of the mind of God.

Jason: You first must prove that your god even exists. Then you have to prove that what you think you have assurance of actually came from this god.

Good luck little buddy.

Ray: I don’t have to prove anything to you. I’m merely giving you a description of how it works, based upon my own experience. Whether or not you believe is up to you.

For instance, if God were to assure you that Jesus is the Christ, you would have an assurance from God that Jesus is the Christ,

Jason: First you must demonstrate the above....

Ray: I think you missed that other IF, THEN statement.

...and since Jesus Christ is a real person who actually lived and continues to live...

Jason: Now you have to prove that a man named Jesus Christ actually existed. Then you have to prove that he's still alive somewhere.

Wow, you've got your work cut out for you. But please, take your time.

Ray: I do not have to prove that to you. I have enough respect for your RIGHT to have your own beliefs that I would not try to force you or compel you to believe anything. I am merely trying to share what I know with you, thinking that maybe if I explain how I came to know that, you might see that my methods make sense and that you could obtain knowledge in the same way. But I am not trying to prove anything to you at all.

In other words, God has told me that Jesus is the Christ, and that Jesus does live. I am simply trying to describe the methods I used to Ask God for that knowledge, and how God answered me.

... you would have both an assurance from God and a knowledge of something which exists not only in the mind of the person who has received that faith or assurance from God.

Jason: Yeah, if your god exists, and if Jesus were actually a real person, and if it was possible to receive an assurance from your god that you could prove to people had been received by you, et. al.

Ray: Did you follow all of that?

Jason: Yep.

Ray: In summary, faith from God is an assurance from God which can lead a person to a knowledge of the truth of things that actually exist, or did exists, or will exists, as long as the assurance is based on the truth. And coming from God, you can count the fact that His assurances are true, because Satan is the name we give to the person who tries to deceive us.

Jason Uh oh. Now you have to prove that Satan is a real being too! You can skip that one for now if it'll make things easier.

Ray: I know Satan is a real being from the assurances I have received from him, and in contrast to the assurances I have received from God, I have learned that I would rather listen to God.

And btw, you can also receive an assurance of something that does exist only in your mind, or only in the mind of God, such as an assurance of the fact that God does love you and wants you to be happy.

Jason: Well...you just work on the other stuff first, then we'll get to this.

Ray: The same methods work for getting answers from both God and Satan. If you ask, somebody will answer, and from experience you will know who gives good and bad answers.

And if you don’t believe me, Ask God for an assurance that what I have said is true, and as long as you Ask God with a real and sincere desire to know and follow His will, He will assure you of all the truth you care to ask Him about.

Jason: Ray, I know that you're a good hearted person deep down. And I appreciate that you want me to know that your god, who you think is the creator, loves me.

But I have a wife and kids who I actually know and can prove love me, and that's vastly more important in my opinion.

Ray: If you could only talk to your wife or children on the phone, without actually seeing or touching them, would you still be able to know that they love you?

How would the feeling you could get from them be any more real than the feeling you could get from God or Satan?

And how could your wife and children be any more real than God or Satan?

Just because you may have never seen God or Satan with your natural eyes, it doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist.

And I do know for a fact that they both live.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Ray@Oct 20 2005, 05:15 PM

If you could only talk to your wife or children on the phone, without actually seeing or touching them, would you still be able to know that they love you?

How would the feeling you could get from them be any more real than the feeling you could get from God or Satan?

And how could your wife and children be any more real than God or Satan?

Just because you may have never seen God or Satan with your natural eyes, it doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist.

I can't speak for Jason, but...

Well first, that is next to impossible (to be married to someone and have children with them without ever having seen them)...

But lets say it is possible, for arguments sake.

If I never saw my wife and kids, but only talked to them over a phone, I would be willing to accept that maybe they didn't really exist...that these were actors pretending to be my wife and kids.

Just my 2 cents.

[Jason]

Ray,

You stated that it's possible to know if an assurance comes from god by "that feeling being given to someone else". I would ask you, How do we know it's the same feeling? Is it possible for any two people to have the exact same feelings? How do you prove that? What measurements do you use? What type of tests? You then move on to claim that "if you have an assurance from God, then you would have an assurance which has come from god". That's very circular reasoning, and is a logical fallacy. That's no different than telling me that the Bible is true because the Bible says that it's true.

As for an assurance from god, how do you know it's an assurance from God verses from yourself? Where in the Scriptures does it tell you that such and such a feeling is from God whereas such and such a feeling is from within yourself? What do the scriptures say on how to tell the difference?

In this discussion, you announced that you are "not trying to prove anything to you at all". That's absurd. Of course you are trying to prove what you believe, or we wouldn't be having this little conversation. But what you're really saying is that you "know" what you believe is true, and other's "know" it's true as well, but when we boil the whole process of your "knowing" down, you cannot explain why you know it's true, you cannot identify whether an assurance is from God or the Devil, you have no checks or balances to test the source of this assurance as you claim, and though you cannot prove any of it, you still believe that Im the fool?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Oct 20 2005, 06:56 PM-->

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray@Oct 20 2005, 05:15 PM

If you could only talk to your wife or children on the phone, without actually seeing or touching them, would you still be able to know that they love you?

How would the feeling you could get from them be any more real than the feeling you could get from God or Satan?

And how could your wife and children be any more real than God or Satan?

Just because you may have never seen God or Satan with your natural eyes, it doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist.

I can't speak for Jason, but...

Well first, that is next to impossible (to be married to someone and have children with them without ever having seen them)...

But lets say it is possible, for arguments sake.

If I never saw my wife and kids, but only talked to them over a phone, I would be willing to accept that maybe they didn't really exist...that these were actors pretending to be my wife and kids.

Just my 2 cents.

←

Heh, sorry, I had in my mind a situation where Jason would never get to hear or see his wife and children any more on this Earth, except on the phone [and not a picture phone, mind you], and I was comparing that to how we can't see our heavenly Father anymore, except through the assurances He gives to us spiritually, or to our spirits, except on certain occasions when He considers it to be necessary, or expedient, to visit us in person.

But thanks for playing with me. :)

And btw, if you couldnt' continue to develop a closer relationship with your wife and children over the phone, just because you couldn't physically see them anymore, I think you should start spending more quality time with them until you truly know who they are.

Heh, I'm imagining your wife saying, "Honey, it's me, your wife, and I love you", and you saying to her "Wait a second, hold on right there, you'll have to prove to me that you're my wife, because I can't see you, and you could be anybody," and then her saying back to you, "But it's me, remember that time...", and you saying "Well, you could have found out about that from anybody, or my wife could have told you about that. Who are you really", and then her saying "But it's me, don't you know my voice?" and then you saying "But this could be a tape recorder, or I could be living in the Matrix, so, sorry, I can't be sure about this", and then her breaking down and crying because she can't get through to you, and then...

Screech, just stop the madness and say it ain't so, Tao!!!!