Joseph Smith foretold by Biblical Joseph?

[Guest Cneve]

I just finished reading BoM for the first time!

One of the things that i found strangest and hardest to believe was that the Biblical Joseph (in Egypt) had foretold the coming of a future great prophet who would bear the same name as himself!! And in the chapter headlines it says that it specifically means Joseph Smith!

I find that hard to believe, sounds like JS put himself in the BoM like that to give himself more credibility and fame as a prophet? Very cheeky! Or Delusions of grandeur?

Even if BoM and the translation was real and genuine i can´t help having the feeling he maybe came up with that part by himself, to boost his reputation and credibility? what do you think? Anyone else who found this weird first time u read it?

[Dravin]

Even if BoM and the translation was real and genuine i can´t help having the feeling he maybe came up with that part by himself, to boost his reputation and credibility?

I'm having a hard time reconciling a real and genuine translation with 'made stuff up and threw it in there'.

[Guest Cneve]

Can´t it both be real and true on the whole, but he also threw in few things of his own?

[Justice]

No. How would you know what he threw in? Who would decide?

We believe that many plain and precious parts were changed or removed from the Bible over the years. The Bible did contain prophecies about Joseph Smith by Joseph of Egypt. Just because they aren't there now means nothing. We have very little or nothing of what Joseph of Egypt wrote in the Bible (and many other great prophets like Enoch, Melchezidek, etc.).

[Martain]

I once asked the Lord regarding the Book of Mormon. My question was no longer whether or not Joseph translated it by revelation, but as to whether or not the Prophets of old who wrote it, accurately depicted history they wrote about.

I received a confirmation that yes, they did.

I know the Book of Mormon is true and that it was correctly translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith.

I suppose it's no different than Moses finding himself referred to in past scripture as well.

God has in the past had prophets prophecy of future prophets and the work they would do. I see no scriptural difficulty in accepting that God would choose to do so for Joseph Smith as well considering his role in the Restoration.

Since I know that the Book of Mormon is true this doesn't irk me.

Ultimately, you'll have to do the same thing I did and try the promise.

[Guest Cneve]

But since we have no written of them - then it is free to speculate and maybe even make up things they might have said ?? We can never know if Joseph of Egypt really said that.

Don´t you see the problem? A guy claims to have found an ancient document that among other things foretells about HIMSELF! That is pretty presumptuous, ballsy, (or at least can seem that way...) If i would do the same thing people would think i was mad and just trying to make myself look more important and chosen than i actually was?

Edited November 22, 2011 by Cneve

[Martain]

If you have a glass of pure water and you add one drop of poison to it, the water is no longer pure but poisoned.

If you have a book of pure truth and you add one lie to it, the book is no longer pure truth.

Joseph Smith could not have translated an ancient record by the power of God and also added a few things of his own personal choosing to make himself look better. By adding falsehoods to the Book, it would prevent the Holy Ghost from testifying that it is true.

God simply wouldn't have allowed it.

[Dravin]

Can´t it both be real and true on the whole, but he also threw in few things of his own?

If he's inserting stuff to make himself look good it seriously damages the credibility of his translation, particularly since he doesn't need it. The prophecy is only credible to those who accept the validity of the book, at which point an extra little blurb about Joseph of Egypt's prophecy is mostly moot for convincing power baring an accompanying spiritual witness of it's validity.

[Martain]

The question comes down to whether or not the record is true.

We can know whether or not Joseph of Egypt really said these things. We can know this the same way we can know that the Book or Mormon is true.

By asking God and receiving a personal witness, a personal revelation, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your chearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may aknow the btruth of all things.

[Guest Cneve]

I suppose it's no different than Moses finding himself referred to in past scripture as well.

God has in the past had prophets prophecy of future prophets and the work they would do.

What scriptures do you mean foretell moses about moses?

And what other prophets in the bible foretell the names of coming prophets so specifically? Sure they foretell there will be more prophets in the future, in general, but with names??

[Dravin]

But since we have no written of them - then it is free to speculate and maybe even make up things they might have said ?? We can never know if Joseph of Egypt really said that.

You realize this is the inherent issue with scripture right? Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C, or Pearl of Great Price. Baring personal revelation on the matter we can never know that Moses, Jesus, Joseph of Egypt, Paul, or Mosiah said anything.

A guy claims to have found an ancient document that among other things foretells about HIMSELF! That is pretty presumptuous, ballsy, (or at least can seem that way...) If i would do the same thing people would think i was mad and just trying to make myself look more important and chosen than i actually was?

They could think that, of course people thought that about pretty much all of his claims. What gets me is these people are getting past his claims about having spoken with Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father, of having received and translated an ancient record, having visitations from angels, and direct revelations beyond the translation of the Book of Mormon, and this is what they're getting hung up on. If you think he's just making stuff up to get attention Joseph of Egypt's prophecy is the least of the issue.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Dravin

[bay2boy]

Joseph Smith was called not only as a prophet but a The Prophet to usher in the last dispensation of the fullness of times. Why shouldn't he be prophesied of? I have no doubt that it is true. As mentioned before, it comes down to your testimony of Joseph Smith and the writings he has brought forth.

[Guest Cneve]

As mentioned before, it comes down to your testimony of Joseph Smith and the writings he has brought forth.

I haven´t had one yet allthough i have asked. I´m fascinated by mormonism, find it very appealing in many ways but still skeptical to some parts. This is one of them.

[the_last_gunslinger]

Well look at it this way, what if the ancient Joseph really did prophecy concerning Joseph Smith. What was he supposed to do, leave that part out so it doesn't look like he made it up? Smith was tasked with one of the greatest and most important jobs of all time. I don't think it odd that he would have been foretold about.

[john doe]

Yeah, I can't think of any revelations in ancient times that prophecy of future people or events. Well, except for the Old Testament. I seem to remember a couple of passages in there that talk about Jesus. But those are just minor things, not really important stuff at all.

[john doe]

I haven´t had one yet allthough i have asked. I´m fascinated by mormonism, find it very appealing in many ways but still skeptical to some parts. This is one of them.

And there's the rub. A skeptic will always find a reason to not believe.

[bay2boy]

"And there's the rub. A skeptic will always find a reason to not believe."

There is nothing wrong with questioning or being skeptical.

Everyone has to come to that place where they put complete trust in the Lord for an answer having a completely open mind and heart. (Moroni's promise basically)

Edited November 22, 2011 by bay2boy

[james12]

And what other prophets in the bible foretell the names of coming prophets so specifically? Sure they foretell there will be more prophets in the future, in general, but with names??

Other prophets do tell names. What of Isaiah and Cyrus. The whole section is instructive. God knows us by name. Who are we to question what He chooses to reveal to his servants the prophets or how he confirms their words.

Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth ...who confirms the word of his servant, and performs the counsel of his messengers; who says of Jerusalem, 'She shall be inhabited,' and of the cities of Judah, 'They shall be built, and I will raise up their ruins'; who says to the deep, 'Be dry, I will dry up your rivers'; who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd, and he shall fulfil all my purpose'; saying of Jerusalem, 'She shall be built,' and of the temple, 'Your foundation shall be laid.' (Isaiah 44:24-28)

Continuing with chapter 45 of Isaiah:

Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and ungird the loins of kings, to open doors before him that gates may not be closed: "I will go before you and level the mountains, I will break in pieces the doors of bronze and cut asunder the bars of iron, I will give you the treasures of darkness and the hoards in secret places, that you may know that it is I, the LORD, the God of Israel, who call you by your name. For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I surname you, though you do not know me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I gird you, though you do not know me, that men may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other. (Isaiah 45:1-6)

Thankfully hundreds of years later Cyrus heard the call much like Joseph Smith...

Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the Lord God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem. (Ezra 1: 2-3)

Not only Ezra, but Josephus confirms Cyrus' works... http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-11.htm

Why question the Lord and his ways. He may call any by name he so chooses. And those whom he calls are only special in that they have a grave responsibility to heed His word.

[john doe]

"And there's the rub. A skeptic will always find a reason to not believe."

There is nothing wrong with questioning or being skeptical.

Everyone has to come to that place where they put complete trust in the Lord for an answer having a completely open mind and heart. (Moroni's promise basically)

And that's the difference. A skeptic does not come before the Lord with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. The skeptic is looking for reasons not to believe, the true seeker is asking the Lord to help him find the truth no matter where it leads.

[bytebear]

But since we have no written of them - then it is free to speculate and maybe even make up things they might have said ?? We can never know if Joseph of Egypt really said that.

Don´t you see the problem? A guy claims to have found an ancient document that among other things foretells about HIMSELF! That is pretty presumptuous, ballsy, (or at least can seem that way...) If i would do the same thing people would think i was mad and just trying to make myself look more important and chosen than i actually was?

Of all the things Joseph Smith claimed, you are hung up on a verse in the Book of Mormon? Joseph Smith claimed to see Jesus Christ and God the Father. He claimed to be visited by angels. He claimed to receive the priesthood from angels. He claimed to have translated from golden plates an ancient record. He claimed to the the prophet to usher in the last dispensation. He claimed to restore the only true church upon the face of the whole Earth. His claims made him literally the most important man who ever lived, other than Jesus Christ (obviously) and possibly Adam. Given all of that, if he really was a prophet, then Joseph of Egypt may very well have prophesied about him. Joseph is a powerful name with God. I found it only fitting that God would make that known.

So if you accept all that Joseph Smith did, and accept his prophetic calling, this issue really does become minor.

[volgadon]

The Hebrew year 5566 lasted from the 24th of September, 1805 to the 12th of September, 1806.

This was the first year after the sabbatical year of 5565, and marked the beginning of a new seven year cycle.

Joseph Smith's birthday, the 23rd of December, 1805, was also the 2nd of Tebeth, the eighth and last day of Hannukah. That is, the eighth day of the celebrations occasioned by Judah Maccabee's rededication of the Jerusalem temple.

The Torah portion (parashat hashavua) for that week is Vayigash (Genesis 44:18-47:27). This is the climax of Joseph in Egypt's story, he reveals his identity and is reconciled with his brothers.

The haftarah (additional scriptural portion) for all Jewish communities is Ezekiel 37:15-28. I think most every LDS is familiar with these verses. The sticks of Judah and Joseph.

R. Yehoshua of Sakhnin said: The Holy One blessed be He gave Abraham a sign that all that would happen to him would happen to his descendants. In what way? He chose Abraham from among his father's entire household, as it is written: "You are the Lord, the God who chose Abram and brought him forth out of Ur of the Chaldeans and gave him the name Abraham" (Nehemiah 9:7), and he chose his descendants from among the seventy nations, as it written: "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his own possession, out of all the peoples that are on the face of the earth" (Deut. 14:2). (Midrash Tanhuma, Lekh Lekha 9).

I will tell you a principle that you should understand in all of the coming chapters regarding Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and it is a great thing, which our sages noted briefly, saying (Tanhuma 9) all that happened to the patriarchs was a sign for their descendants. Therefore, Scripture elaborates upon the story of the travels and the digging of wells and other occurrences. And the one examining them may imagine that these are superfluous things of no use, but they all are meant to teach us about the future, because when the case of the three patriarchs shall come before the prophet, he will deduce from it what has been decreed to occur to his descendants (Nahmanides, Commentary to Lekh Lekha).

Genesis 44:18-47:27 relates a family drama. At the end of this, they become one family again, and prosper. The main characters here are Joseph and Judah.

In Ezekiel 37:15-28, God promises to reunite the house of Israel (symbolized by Judah and Joseph), give them a ruler, restore the temple, and renew his covenant of peace (or friendship) with them for ever. Also, as Genesis 47 marks the beginning of the exile in Egypt, Ezekiel 37 prophesies of exile's end.

[maiku]

Following volgadon's post is a tough act to follow!

I simply wanted to add that I feel it would only be reasonable to mention the prophet of the last dispensation.

John the Baptist was mentioned before his time as a prophet who prepared the way for the Lord's (first) coming. It would be logical then to mention Joseph since he is the prophet to make way for the Lord's second coming.

[yinye]

I remembered noticing that part about Joseph Smith being mentioned by Joseph of Egypt for the first time while reading the BoM this year. I had set myself a challenge to gain a testimony of the BoM. I recall feeling the spirit strongly on reading that part and all I could do at that point in time was get on my knees and thank Heavenly Father