Cal Posted March 7, 2004 Report Posted March 7, 2004 Quite a long time ago I recall reading that JS said something to the effect that even the Terestrial Kingdom (the lowest of the 'heavenly' Kingdoms) is so glorious that, were a person to get a glimpse of it, one would commit suicide to get there. I'm trying to find out where that quote came from and where it can be found---I don't have a copy of BRM's Mormon Doctrine, as I vaguely remember reading it there and don't want to buy one just to find out if BRM had this quote or statement. Does anyone have any information on this? Quote
Paul Osborne Posted March 7, 2004 Report Posted March 7, 2004 To my knowledge I have no memory of ever reading Joseph Smith saying such a thing yet I hear about it all the time in Mormon culture. If someone can provide the actual citation, I will gasp. Paul O Quote
Cal Posted March 7, 2004 Author Report Posted March 7, 2004 Originally posted by Paul Osborne@Mar 7 2004, 10:04 AM To my knowledge I have no memory of ever reading Joseph Smith saying such a thing yet I hear about it all the time in Mormon culture. If someone can provide the actual citation, I will gasp.Paul O It may be in JFS's The Teachings of the Prophet JS, but I can't find my copy of that either. Quote
AFDaw Posted March 7, 2004 Report Posted March 7, 2004 Telestial is the lowest, not Terrestrial. I've also heard of this, but not sure if I've ever seen it as a quote, and if so, I don't remember from where. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted March 7, 2004 Report Posted March 7, 2004 Originally posted by AFDaw@Mar 7 2004, 01:02 PM Telestial is the lowest, not Terrestrial. I've also heard of this, but not sure if I've ever seen it as a quote, and if so, I don't remember from where. I've read it...but then I have read so much...I don't remember where. It wasn't in the D&C...maybe in his journal...or maybe in the minutes of one of their meetings...I just don't know. Quote
Cal Posted March 7, 2004 Author Report Posted March 7, 2004 Correction---Telestial, not Terrestrial---AWD--you are right of course. Quote
Jenda Posted March 7, 2004 Report Posted March 7, 2004 I have heard that, also, so it can't be a later LDS teaching. Quote
Cal Posted March 7, 2004 Author Report Posted March 7, 2004 No, I think it is from a quote made by JS. I'm just not sure where it is. I suspect it is cited in either either BRM's Mormon Doctrine, Teachings of the Prophet JS or in the History of the Church. Quote
Jenda Posted March 7, 2004 Report Posted March 7, 2004 This is the closest I can get.D&C 76:7g RLDS (76:89 LDS)7g And thus we saw in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial which surpasses all understanding; and no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it. Quote
Cal Posted March 7, 2004 Author Report Posted March 7, 2004 Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 7 2004, 02:32 PM This is the closest I can get.D&C 76:7g RLDS (76:89 LDS)7g And thus we saw in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial which surpasses all understanding; and no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it. That's pretty good. Joseph Smith probably made some comment on it somewhere. Quote
Jason Posted March 7, 2004 Report Posted March 7, 2004 Did Joseph Smith say that? No, that statement is another 'faith promoting rumor' of mormonism. But you do have this statement: "If the people knew what was behind the veil, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there. But the Lord in his wisdom ... implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their Creator." But that doesn't say the Telestial Kingdom. Furthermore, this statement is third-hand: Charles Lowell Walker says that Wilford Woodruff says that Joseph Smith said it. Wilford quoted (or paraphrased) Joseph in 1877, 33 years after Joseph's death, and who knows how long after he said it. Wilford's recollection could be off, and Walker's diary recollection of Wilford's statement could be off. Jason Quote
Cal Posted March 8, 2004 Author Report Posted March 8, 2004 Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 7 2004, 03:20 PM Did Joseph Smith say that? No, that statement is another 'faith promoting rumor' of mormonism. But you do have this statement: "If the people knew what was behind the veil, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there. But the Lord in his wisdom ... implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their Creator." But that doesn't say the Telestial Kingdom. Furthermore, this statement is third-hand: Charles Lowell Walker says that Wilford Woodruff says that Joseph Smith said it. Wilford quoted (or paraphrased) Joseph in 1877, 33 years after Joseph's death, and who knows how long after he said it. Wilford's recollection could be off, and Walker's diary recollection of Wilford's statement could be off. Jason Jason-1) Would you explain WHY it is faith promoting? I would think that it is the opposite. It seems to imply that even those "heathens" who end up in the Telestial Kingdom are going to have it pretty good. Even the DC quote above seems to imply that. It's like, "why worry so much about making the Celestial Kingdom when the Telestial sounds like a rip-roaring fun time!2) You still didn't give me a SOURCE for any of this. Can you?3) Since when did we Mormons NOT find it perfectly acceptable to rely on hearsay and second hand word of mouth.Come to think of it, what scripture ISN'T?By the way, you don't need to go back as far as God to explain living things clinging to life. Natural selection and evolution requires it. But, I'm off the subject. Quote
Guest Starsky Posted March 8, 2004 Report Posted March 8, 2004 Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Mar 7 2004, 03:20 PM Did Joseph Smith say that? No, that statement is another 'faith promoting rumor' of mormonism. But you do have this statement: "If the people knew what was behind the veil, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there. But the Lord in his wisdom ... implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their Creator." But that doesn't say the Telestial Kingdom. Furthermore, this statement is third-hand: Charles Lowell Walker says that Wilford Woodruff says that Joseph Smith said it. Wilford quoted (or paraphrased) Joseph in 1877, 33 years after Joseph's death, and who knows how long after he said it. Wilford's recollection could be off, and Walker's diary recollection of Wilford's statement could be off. Jason Funny I quote what my mother said my grandfather stated...all the time... and I believe it is absolutely accurate...even though he died when she was only nineteen, and I wasn't born for another 20 years after that....so...I can't see you have a valid point.BTW my grandfather used to say...."The church is true, but there is a lot of scoundrels in it." Quote
Guest Starsky Posted March 8, 2004 Report Posted March 8, 2004 Another thing Jason, When I read that statement...it was during the time I was only reading things that Joseph Smith wrote or had written by his scribe....so it has to have another reference...I will call SLC tomorrow and see if I can get the original quote. Quote
Cal Posted March 8, 2004 Author Report Posted March 8, 2004 Elaborating on my last post--let me put it this way... Jason, if you have a problem with hearsay, can you give me ONE piece of religious dicta or dogma that is NOT based on hearsay? Quote
Jason Posted October 18, 2005 Report Posted October 18, 2005 Originally posted by Cal@Mar 7 2004, 06:15 PMElaborating on my last post--let me put it this way...Jason, if you have a problem with hearsay, can you give me ONE piece of religious dicta or dogma that is NOT based on hearsay?←Sorry Cal. I know that this answer is coming kinda late. My response? No. All religious teachings are based on hearsay. Quote
Ray Posted October 18, 2005 Report Posted October 18, 2005 I say the gospel is true and that Jesus is the Christ. Now, I know that is a religious teaching, but it is not hearsay... at least not to me. Quote
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