How Do You Get Salvation Through Jesus Christ?

[Stealth3si]

So it seems as if "Mormons", as you put it, work their way up to the three heavens if not the top and second level --- kinda like a business, if not a job.

So what are Mormons willing to do to get to Godhood?

[Guest son of Joseph]

So it seems as if "Mormons", as you put it, work their way up to the three heavens if not the top and second level --- kinda like a business, if not a job.

So what are Mormons willing to do to get to Godhood?

Mormons, have been taught to follow Christ, in every sense, to do what he would were he under every circumstance imaginable. They are taught to follow the Lord by the letter of the law, but also by the spirit.

They are nice guys, I like them.

I believe in a doctrine that teaches me I can achieve , not just by faith alone, but by action. Funny but this reminds me of the Film the Matrix....

Neo believed in what the oracle said....but that alone did not turn him into the New Neo....he had to take action, he had to walk the walk..... but how would he decide to walk it, if he didn't believe in the path in the first place? faith, and works my friend... I believe I f everyone lived by these two simple teachings, the world would be a much better place, because we would all be better...truer followers...and would finally get to know the Lord intimately..because we would be very similar....

Mormons do not work their way up the 3 heavens... they seems to start in the middle as they get baptized... all religions if lived correctly (if there's such a thing) can help you achieve the Terrestrial Kingdom (2 glory), but only the true gospel, which bring all the ceremonies, by the proper authority (God Given) can help a person achieve the highest degree. In other words there's only one way...and they believe that's the one.

Please correct me if I am wrong. :)

thanks,

[Stealth3si]

<div class='quotemain'>

So it seems as if "Mormons", as you put it, work their way up to the three heavens if not the top and second level --- kinda like a business, if not a job.

So what are Mormons willing to do to get to Godhood?

Mormons, have been taught to follow Christ, in every sense, to do what he would were he under every circumstance imaginable. They are taught to follow the Lord by the letter of the law, but also by the spirit.

They are nice guys, I like them.

I believe in a doctrine that teaches me I can achieve , not just by faith alone, but by action. Funny but this reminds me of the Film the Matrix....

Neo believed in what the oracle said....but that alone did not turn him into the New Neo....he had to take action, he had to walk the walk..... but how would he decide to walk it, if he didn't believe in the path in the first place? faith, and works my friend... I believe I f everyone lived by these two simple teachings, the world would be a much better place, because we would all be better...truer followers...and would finally get to know the Lord intimately..because we would be very similar....

Mormons do not work their way up the 3 heavens... they seems to start in the middle as they get baptized... all religions if lived correctly (if there's such a thing) can help you achieve the Terrestrial Kingdom (2 glory), but only the true gospel, which bring all the ceremonies, by the proper authority (God Given) can help a person achieve the highest degree. In other words there's only one way...and they believe that's the one.

Please correct me if I am wrong. :)

thanks,

So Neo walks, or does good works, to become the New Neo? Wihtout his actions he would not become the new Neo, even with his faith. am I wrong here?

Here's another example to consider, and i'm not good at analogies so bear with me. The President of good 'ol US of A. What makes him the President --- the state of union address or the fact that he does presidential duties? Is he not president because we the people declare so by faith (in this case, by fair votes and State of Union Address which declares him as official president)? Last time I checked, Presidents aren't required to do works to become the President, rather, he does (presdiential) works because he IS the president. IOW, the people voting and declaring him as President is a prerequisite for him to be President, not the presidential works. BUT if he is really our President, then he should, not will, do the works of a president. Am i making any sense here?

[Princess3dward]

So it seems as if "Mormons", as you put it, work their way up to the three heavens if not the top and second level --- kinda like a business, if not a job.

So what are Mormons willing to do to get to Godhood?

Follow Christ. What anwser are you looking for?

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

OK. so basically you guys are saying salvation requires faith but faith requires works?? Am I making any sens?

From what I understand, Mormons believe there are three "levels" of heven

Holding an "optimistic view"[8] of the afterlife, Latter-day Saints believe that-through the atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ-eventually every person will be saved in a kingdom of heaven (or a degree of glory) except those who have committed the unpardonable sin.[i'm not sure what they consider the "unpardonable sin"] Bennion said: "All men will receive a degree of salvation commensurate with their desires, their faith, and their good works. This is the divine will and plan."[9] While the vast majority of mankind will eventually be saved in heaven, this does not mean that all residents will enjoy the same quality of eternal lifestyle.

Level #1 The CELESTIAL HEAVEN - The highest of the three levels of heaven where faithful Mormons are exalted to Godhood.

Level #2 The The TERRESTRIAL HEAVEN - is for those who lived honorable lives on the earth but "were blinded by the craftiness of men" and were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus." Those who did not receive a testimony of Jesus while on earth, but who could have done so except for their neglect, are also heirs to the Terrestrial Kingdom (D&C 76:72-74, 79). They obtain not "the crown over the kingdom of our God" (D&C 76:79) and remain without exaltation in their saved condition (D&C 132:17). They "receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father," and their kingdom differs from the celestial "as the moon differs from the sun" (D&C 76:77-78).

LEVEL #3 Telestial Heaven - In the Telestial Kingdom-the lowest degree of glory, while the inhabitants do not receive the ministrations of Jesus Christ or enjoy the presence of God the Father, they do enjoy the companionship of the Holy Ghost-the third member of the Godhead.[31] Williams said:

"Within the telestial glory there will be varying degrees of glory even as the stars vary in brightness as we see them. It embraces those who on earth willfully reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, and commit serious sins such as murder, adultery, lying, and loving to make a lie (but yet do not commit the unpardonable sin), and who do not repent in mortality. They will be cleansed in the postmortal spirit world or spirit prison before the resurrection (D&C 76:81-85, 98-106; Rev. 22:15). Telestial inhabitants as innumerable as the stars will come forth in the last resurrection and then be 'servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come' (D&C 76:112). Although the least of the degrees of glory, yet the Telestial Kingdom 'surpasses all understanding' (D&C 76:89)."[32]

Also We have The "Outer Darkness" for those who commit the "unpardonable sin"

Hope that clears it up for you...

Josh B)

That’s a somewhat accurate reflection of what I believe, Josh… I will not presume to speak for ALL “Mormons”… but to make it more accurately reflect what I think I’d like to add to all of your words while trying to keep all of your words I agree with.

Holding an "optimistic view" of the afterlife, Latter-day Saints believe that-through the atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ-eventually every person will be saved in a kingdom of heaven (or a degree of glory) except those who have committed the unpardonable sin. [<strike>I’m</strike> You’re not sure what <strike>they</strike> we consider the "unpardonable sin"] Bennion (whoever that is) said: "All men will receive a degree of salvation commensurate with their desires, their faith, and their good works. This is the divine will and plan." While the vast majority of mankind will eventually be saved in heaven, this does not mean that all residents will enjoy the same quality of eternal lifestyle.

Level #1 The CELESTIAL HEAVEN - The highest of the three levels of heaven where faithful <strike>Mormons</strike> followers of Jesus Christ are exalted to <strike>Godhood</strike> become joint-heirs with Jesus Christ.

(I suppose you could use the word “Mormon” to refer to all people who follow/ed Jesus Christ like Mormon did, and I suppose you could also use the word “Godhood” to refer to all people who will inherit all that Jesus Christ has.)

And that’s pretty much all I wanted to add.[b/]

:)

Level #2 The The TERRESTRIAL HEAVEN - is for those who lived honorable lives on the earth but "were blinded by the craftiness of men" and were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus." Those who did not receive a testimony of Jesus while on earth, but who could have done so except for their neglect, are also heirs to the Terrestrial Kingdom (D&C 76:72-74, 79). They obtain not "the crown over the kingdom of our God" (D&C 76:79) and remain without exaltation in their saved condition (D&C 132:17). They "receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father," and their kingdom differs from the celestial "as the moon differs from the sun" (D&C 76:77-78).

LEVEL #3 Telestial Heaven - In the Telestial Kingdom-the lowest degree of glory, while the inhabitants do not receive the ministrations of Jesus Christ or enjoy the presence of God the Father, they do enjoy the companionship of the Holy Ghost-the third member of the Godhead. Williams said:

"Within the telestial glory there will be varying degrees of glory even as the stars vary in brightness as we see them. It embraces those who on earth willfully reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, and commit serious sins such as murder, adultery, lying, and loving to make a lie (but yet do not commit the unpardonable sin), and who do not repent in mortality. They will be cleansed in the postmortal spirit world or spirit prison before the resurrection (D&C 76:81-85, 98-106; Rev. 22:15). Telestial inhabitants as innumerable as the stars will come forth in the last resurrection and then be 'servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come' (D&C 76:112). Although the least of the degrees of glory, yet the Telestial Kingdom 'surpasses all understanding' (D&C 76:89)."[32]

Also We have The "Outer Darkness" for those who commit the "unpardonable sin"

Hope that clears it up for you...

[Stealth3si]

Follow Christ.

So basically, you'r saying if one loves Christ, then one must obey his commandmants?

What anwser are you looking for?

The answer I'm looking for is somewhere in the 13 articles of Faith. I believe it is either the eigth or third one, which talks about man's requirements for salvation? "We believe something something.. and laws and ordinances of ..something...something" I'm sorry which one was it?

[Princess3dward]

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<div class='quotemain'>

So it seems as if "Mormons", as you put it, work their way up to the three heavens if not the top and second level --- kinda like a business, if not a job.

So what are Mormons willing to do to get to Godhood?

Follow Christ. What anwser are you looking for?

I'm looking for something more specific withing the 13 articles of your Fiath. Not the one that talks about all mankind and salvation but the one where Mormons must do to get exalted to Godhood. I know Godhood goes beyond our topic of salvation, but I'm just curious. Just keep it very brief.

I don't know why you are wording it like that...

In my opinion, it sounds like you are saying that members need to try harder to get to where everyone thinks they are going...

What do we have to do?

Try our best to keep ALL of the commandments.

Not SOME! If you know that you SHOULDN'T HAVE SEX BEFORE MERRAIGE (seems like the biggest problem) thrn DON'T!

We have to remember to repend if we wronged anyone and follow the councel of the prophets who just want to keep us safe.

[Stealth3si]

<div class='quotemain'>

How do you primarily* get salvation through Jesus Christ? By faith or by works?

Some people seem to think it's an "EITHER OR" option, but I personally believe it is AND.

And if want to hear my answer to what you asked in the thread topic, I'd say:

Accept Jesus Christ as your Lord.

Does everyone understand what it means to have a Lord?

Do you think Jesus Christ is an exception?

The only way I know to accept Him as my Lord is for me to actually do what He tells me.

If one pursues salvation by works (and by faith), then one would have to consider what the Bible says in the OT (you can disregard this entire statement if you don't believe in the OT): it says that the heart is desperately wicked and deceitful and cannot be trusted. (Jer 17:9) Take extreme Muslims for example. Not all start out as radicals, but for some, their journey to acheive salvation by faith and works have led them down a fundamentalist road where where good works are the motivation to get into heaven or become higher status in heaven at all costs. But Mormons aren't like Muslims and they'll never do what extreme Muslims do (knock on wood), but what both share is the road to meriting salvation by faith and works and that seems to be dangerous territory to tread on, espeically when one considers how convincing, deceitful and wicked our hearts can be. But works aren't useless of course. Works belong in the same equation but for a different purpose.

[Ray]

I you're saying what I think you are saying, I agree.

I wouldn't just trust your heart (or my heart) either.

We could have good intentions and still be wrong.

What I do is ask God to tell me what God wants me to do.

I don't just assume that my heart is like His.

And whether or not you believe me... I know this is true:

God is giving me a new heart...

... a heart just like His.

... a heart this is becoming like His.

And if you ask Him, I know He will also help you.

God can also give you a new heart. :)

[Stealth3si]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

So it seems as if "Mormons", as you put it, work their way up to the three heavens if not the top and second level --- kinda like a business, if not a job.

So what are Mormons willing to do to get to Godhood?

Follow Christ. What anwser are you looking for?

I'm looking for something more specific withing the 13 articles of your Fiath. Not the one that talks about all mankind and salvation but the one where Mormons must do to get exalted to Godhood. I know Godhood goes beyond our topic of salvation, but I'm just curious. Just keep it very brief.

I don't know why you are wording it like that...

In my opinion, it sounds like you are saying that members need to try harder to get to where everyone thinks they are going...

What do we have to do?

Try our best to keep ALL of the commandments.

Not SOME! If you know that you SHOULDN'T HAVE SEX BEFORE MERRAIGE (seems like the biggest problem) thrn DON'T!

We have to remember to repend if we wronged anyone and follow the councel of the prophets who just want to keep us safe.

So basically you are saved by Grace after all you can do?

So let me get this straight:

Mormons believe salvation is attained through a combination of faith in the Atonement of Christ and good works, with emphasis on the good works:

"If you are to return to live with God eternally, you must keep His commandments, accept Jesus Christ’s Atonement, and follow His example while you are on Earth." [1]

"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.... [the] ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost"

Correct me if I'm wrong if this is this from the thrid article of Faith.

BTW, here is a general summary, and correct me if any of this is incorrect:

1 believing in God and Jesus

2 doing good (being kind, fair, loving, etc.)

3 developing moral character

4 repenting of sins and attaining forgiveness through the Atonement of Christ

5 being baptized and participating in other Mormon ordinances

6 spreading the Mormon faith

[Guest ApostleKnight]

The simplest answer is that we are to love as God and Christ love. Even if someone does "all the works" there are to do, and yet don't love God's children as He does, then it is worth nothing. Refer to much of 1 Cor. 13, and Ether 12:34 which reads:

"And now I know that this love which thou hast had for the children of men is charity; wherefore, except men shall have charity they cannot inherit that place which thou hast prepared in the mansions of thy Father."

The "good works" will occur as a natural result of acquiring charity, or the perfect love of Christ. The works aren't to be done just for their own sake. The "works" are only important inasmuch as they are evidence of a changed heart and love for mankind and God.

[Princess3dward]

So basically you are saved by Grace after all you can do?

Umm... I don't get your wording... We are saved after all we can do... yes...

So let me get this straight:

LDS (I had to fix that) believe salvation is attained through a combination of faith in the Atonement of Christ and good works, with emphasis on the good works:

Ya... like service.

"If you are to return to live with God eternally, you must keep His commandments, accept Jesus Christ’s Atonement, and follow His example while you are on Earth." [1]

*nods* Yupp.

"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.... [the] ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost"

Yupp again!

BTW, here is a general summary, and correct me if any of this is incorrect:

1 believing in God and Jesus

2 doing good (being kind, fair, loving, etc.) And service

3 developing moral character

4 repenting of sins and attaining forgiveness through the Atonement of Christ

5 being baptized and participating in other LDS ordinances

6 spreading the Mormon faith We are more worried about faith in Christ.

[Stealth3si]

The simplest answer is that we are to love as God and Christ love. Even if someone does "all the works" there are to do, and yet don't love God's children as He does, then it is worth nothing. Refer to much of 1 Cor. 13, and Ether 12:34 which reads:

"And now I know that this love which thou hast had for the children of men is charity; wherefore, except men shall have charity they cannot inherit that place which thou hast prepared in the mansions of thy Father."

The "good works" will occur as a natural result of acquiring charity, or the perfect love of Christ. The works aren't to be done just for their own sake. The "works" are only important inasmuch as they are evidence of a changed heart and love for mankind and God.

That's an interesting way to put it. I agree "good works" is a natural result of something and that "works" is just as important as faith but not being done for its own sake. Christians believe works is a natural result of real genuine faith, which is dead without the confirmation of works. However, obeying Christ and doing works isn't what saves or justifies you and me --- it's God alone who saves/justifies us and makes us righteous through our own volitional confession of Christ as our Lord BUT we obey Christ and do works because we are saved, because we have genuine faith and because He is our Lord, not the other way around, so that our hearts, which Jeremiah puts it, is desperately wicked and deceitful and cannot be trusted, will not guide our actions, or works, to get the Lord's approval.

Are you confusing the difference between justification and sanctification? please correct me if I'm wrong.

Justification is our legal declaration by God upon on us, sinners, that we are declared righteous in His sight. Could this be where faith plays into our justification? Sanctification is the process we go through and our lives where the Holy Spirit makes us more like Jesus. Could this be where good works play into?

The question, then, is how are you justified? how are you made righteous in God's site? I lovingly request that you read Romans chapters 3-5 and Galatians 3-5. It is these chapters that speak of this issue. I hope that if you read them you will see that the third article on your Church is in contradiction to God's word. What ever I am I am by the Grace of God, not by my own merit. But by my merit I can be sure that God alone justifies me, I belong to Him, that I can be sanctified into Him and that my merit will be judged for any rewards in heaven (if there are any). Am I making any sense here?

You are going to believe what you believe and there's no way I can convert or convince you through logic, intellectual traps, or proof texts otherwise but I'm here to shed some light on why Christ alone is the only one who can justify our salvation, not by works. Again, I'm not saying works is useless it's as importnat in the equation as faith.

Umm... I don't get your wording... We are saved after all we can do... yes...

Ya... like service.

*nods* Yupp.

Yupp again!

2 doing good (being kind, fair, loving, etc.) And service

5 being baptized and participating in other LDS ordinances

6 spreading the Mormon faith We are more worried about faith in Christ.

If we must pursue salvation by works (besides faith [there you go]), then would that mean Jesus's gruesome death on the cross isn't enough to save/justify us? That when He said "It is done", he meant half of His work was done and that we are to pick up His slack? That what our loving Lord has done on the cross for us is insufficient and that we are to complete His work through our works? Are we finishing God's work (to justify/save ourselves) of what Jesus started on the cross but couldn't complete? Wow. Did Jesus Christ suffer and die on the cross so that we may continue His work in saving oursevles or did He suffer and die on the cross so that we may santcify ourselves by His example?

That being said, you see, one of the basic differences between Christianity and Mormonism aside from the dealings with God and His nature, is how we are forgiven of our sins. Yes, we are to keep his Commandments, but we are not saved by keeping those Commandments. This is clearly taught in the book of Romans chapters 4 and 5. In fact, the third article of your Church contradicts the book of Romans and Ephesians and Galatians which all teach justification by faith alone.

It's useless talking to you because you believe what you believe. You wont' be converted. You can't be. But I'm here to shed some light on why Christ would be the only one who can justify our salvation, not by works. Again, I'm not saying works is useless it's as importnat in the equation as faith.

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

The simplest answer is that we are to love as God and Christ love. Even if someone does "all the works" there are to do, and yet don't love God's children as He does, then it is worth nothing. Refer to much of 1 Cor. 13, and Ether 12:34 which reads:

"And now I know that this love which thou hast had for the children of men is charity; wherefore, except men shall have charity they cannot inherit that place which thou hast prepared in the mansions of thy Father."

The "good works" will occur as a natural result of acquiring charity, or the perfect love of Christ. The works aren't to be done just for their own sake. The "works" are only important inasmuch as they are evidence of a changed heart and love for mankind and God.

That's an interesting way to put it. I agree "good works" is a natural result of something and that "works" is just as important as faith but not being done for its own sake. Christians believe works is a natural result of real genuine faith, which is dead without the confirmation of works. However, obeying Christ and doing works isn't what saves or justifies you and me --- it's God alone who saves/justifies us and makes us righteous through our own volitional confession of Christ as our Lord BUT we obey Christ and do works because we are saved, because we have genuine faith and because He is our Lord, not the other way around, so that our hearts, which Jeremiah puts it, is desperately wicked and deceitful and cannot be trusted, will not guide our actions, or works, to get the Lord's approval.

Are you confusing the difference between justification and sanctification? please correct me if I'm wrong.

Justification is our legal declaration by God upon on us, sinners, that we are declared righteous in His sight. Could this be where faith plays into our justification? Sanctification is the process we go through and our lives where the Holy Spirit makes us more like Jesus. Could this be where good works play into?

The question, then, is how are you justified? how are you made righteous in God's site? I lovingly request that you read Romans chapters 3-5 and Galatians 3-5. It is these chapters that speak of this issue. I hope that if you read them you will see that the third article on your Church is in contradiction to God's word. What ever I am I am by the Grace of God, not by my own merit. But by my merit I can be sure that God alone justifies me, I belong to Him, that I can be sanctified into Him and that my merit will be judged for any rewards in heaven (if there are any). Am I making any sense here?

You are going to believe what you believe and there's no way I can convert or convince you through logic, intellectual traps, or proof texts otherwise but I'm here to shed some light on why Christ alone is the only one who can justify our salvation, not by works. Again, I'm not saying works is useless it's as importnat in the equation as faith.

Umm... I don't get your wording... We are saved after all we can do... yes...

Ya... like service.

*nods* Yupp.

Yupp again!

2 doing good (being kind, fair, loving, etc.) And service

5 being baptized and participating in other LDS ordinances

6 spreading the Mormon faith We are more worried about faith in Christ.

If we must pursue salvation by works (aside from faith), then would that mean Jesus's gruesome death on the cross isn't enough to save/justify us? That when He said "It is done", he meant half of His work was done and that we are to pick up His slack? That what our loving Lord has done on the cross for us is insufficient and that we are to complete His work through our works? Are we finishing God's work (to justify/save ourselves) of what Jesus started on the cross but couldn't complete? Wow. Did Jesus Christ suffer and die on the cross so that we may continue His work in saving oursevles or did He suffer and die on the cross so that we may santcify ourselves by His example?

That being said, you see, one of the basic differences between Christianity and Mormonism aside from the dealings with God and His nature, is how we are forgiven of our sins. Yes, we are to keep his Commandments, but we are not saved by keeping those Commandments. This is clearly taught in the book of Romans chapters 4 and 5. In fact, the third article of your Church contradicts the book of Romans and Ephesians and Galatians which all teach justification by faith alone.

It's useless talking to you because you believe what you believe. You wont' be converted. You can't be. But I'm here to shed some light on why Christ would be the only one who can justify our salvation, not by works. Again, I'm not saying works is useless it's as importnat in the equation as faith.

AHH! NOT ASIDE!

I feel like you are twisting my words!

I am talking to a wall.

I am not posting in this thread anymore.

[Stealth3si]

AHH! NOT ASIDE!

I feel like you are twisting my words!

I am talking to a wall.

I am not posting in this thread anymore.

I'm not an English major but by now you should know what I mean when I say "aside from this" as the same as "besides this". So let me rephrase that "...besides faith..." "..besides from the dealing..." Either way one should easily grasp my main point.

[Ray]

I think most LDS agree with what you are saying, Stealth, but some of your words are not clear.

I know I am saved by my faith in Jesus Christ, and I show Him my faith by my works.

If I only have a little faith, then I'll only do a little work, and I will then receive a little reward.

But if I have great faith, then I'll do great works, and great shall then be my reward.

I suggest that you search through all of our scriptures... through all the words we believe God inspired.

And I would ask you to do that if you were a Muslim, or a Buddhist, or a Jew, or whatever.

In other words, do not judge us by what you think of us, but by what are the fruits of our faith.

And if you start with one book, then I suggest the Book of Mormon.

Learn from us what we teach... not from others.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

If we must pursue salvation by works (besides faith [there you go]), then would that mean Jesus's gruesome death on the cross isn't enough to save/justify us?

No, even though you seem to believe that. You said:

Yes, we are to keep his Commandments, but we are not saved by keeping those Commandments.

If you mean that the act of obedience itself doesn't cleanse us of sin, you are correct. But if you mean that obedience doesn't affect what portion of cleansing grace is active in our life, then that's an assumption Jesus would certainly disagree with. Consider the story in Matthew 19:16-21, which I quote below:

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

So despite your assertions, Stealth, Jesus directly links receiving eternal life with works. What works? Obeying the commandments. That's the "work" we LDS believe is necessary to receive salvation. Obedience. I don't know why so many Christians grimace as if they're eating dung beetles when the word "works" is mentioned. Jesus clearly teaches here in Matthew 19 that obeying the commandments is necessary to receive eternal life. Oh, and eternal life cannot possibly mean resurrection or immortality, since we know that's a free gift to all (1 Cor. 15:22). Thus, in this scripture passage, Jesus means salvation in God's kingdom when he says "eternal life."

I think you're looking at the works+faith=salvation equation all wrong, Stealth. Consdier this statement: We must obey God's commandments to receive eternal life/salvation. We can interpret this two ways, and I think you're choosing the incorrect interpretation.

First, this statement can mean that the act of obedience itself somehow cleanses us of the taint of sin.

Second, this statement can mean that while Jesus alone can cleanse us of sin and sanctify us, he won't exercise this atoning power until we activate our covenant relationship with God by obeying His commandments.

If I understand your posts correctly, you believe the LDS position is #1 above. Well it's not. Let me put it to you plainly in one sentence.

We are saved by grace, and we access that grace through obedience to God's commandments.

While we can get caught up in semantics, the point of the above doctrine is that no, we cannot save ourselves; only Jesus can save us. BUT...we must obey God before we can be cleansed by Christ's grace. In this sense, as I said earlier, our best efforts are not enough, but they are necessary. To use an embarassingly simple analogy (which are often the best), if we want to turn on the light in our bedroom, we flip a switch. Did flipping the switch create the electricity that provides the light? No. Flipping the switch merely grants us access to the electricity which is waiting to be used. So even though we don't create the electricity, we can't avail ourselves of it's power unless we do something, like flip the switch.

In the end, your assertion that we are justified by faith alone completely flies in the face of what Jesus taught in Matthew 19. And if there's a discrepancy between the teachings of Jesus and Paul (there's not), I think we'd safely say Jesus's teachings would be "more accurate." Something about him being God, all knowing, omnipotent, our Savior...stuff like that. As I said, there is no contradiction between Paul and Jesus, but there is a contradiction between your interpretation of Paul's teachings and those of Jesus. Can you see that?

Jesus taught we must obey to be saved. Period. There's no getting around it, no matter how ardently we appeal to the Pauline doctrines on faith (our what we think they mean).

p.s. The end of the Matthew 19 passage I cited gives one more clue...Jesus taught what Paul would later teach in 1 Cor. 13...even if we obey and have faith, if we don't love as Christ loved, and follow his example of kindness and charity...we cannot be saved.

[Ray]

Heh, I thought about adding to ApostleKnight's words,

but I think I'll just simply agree.

If I added anything it would just be other words,

but that's enough truth right now to set us free.

:)

[Stealth3si]

I think most LDS agree with what you are saying, Stealth, but some of your words are not clear.

I know I am saved by my faith in Jesus Christ, and I show Him my faith by my works.

If I only have a little faith, then I'll only do a little work, and I will then receive a little reward.

But if I have great faith, then I'll do great works, and great shall then be my reward.

OK -- we're on the same page. :)

I suggest that you search through all of our scriptures... through all the words we believe God inspired.

And I would ask you to do that if you were a Muslim, or a Buddhist, or a Jew, or whatever.

In other words, do not judge us by what you think of us, but by what are the fruits of our faith.

And if you start with one book, then I suggest the Book of Mormon.

Learn from us what we teach... not from others.

Every now and then, Mormons or LDS, dont' know which one they are, but most likely LDS, come visit my house. I'll try to remind myself to get a copy from them next time. B)

[Stealth3si]

No, even though you seem to believe that...

That was an open-ended question, meaning I was not asserting my or your belief in that literal sense, merely a consideration.

If you mean that the act of obedience itself doesn't cleanse us of sin, you are correct. But if you mean that obedience doesn't affect what portion of cleansing grace is active in our life, then that's an assumption Jesus would certainly disagree with.

Consider the story in Matthew 19:16-21, which I quote below:

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

What I mean is the act of obedience itself doesn't cleanse us of sin but it certainly does affect what portion of cleansing grace is active in our life. :) That's an interesting way to look at the story in that perspective.

So despite your assertions, Stealth, Jesus directly links receiving eternal life with works. What works? Obeying the commandments. That's the "work" we LDS believe is necessary to receive salvation. Obedience. I don't know why so many Christians grimace as if they're eating dung beetles when the word "works" is mentioned. Jesus clearly teaches here in Matthew 19 that obeying the commandments is necessary to receive eternal life.

The above Matthew story, particularly, verse 21, does not teach salvation by works (see Rom. 3:23, 24: Eph. 2:8, 9). Rather Jesus was proving the error of the man's claim to have fulfilled God's Law (v. 20). If the young man loved his neighbor to the extent requried by the Law of Moses (v. 19; Lev. 19:18), he would have had no difficulty in givng away his wealth to needy people.

I think you're looking at the works+faith=salvation equation all wrong, Stealth. Consdier this statement: We must obey God's commandments to receive eternal life/salvation.

If God's commandments include confessing our sins and admitting He is our Lord and Savior and all that other stuff that unbelievers must go through to receive eternal life/salvation, and we are to obey those commandments, then, yes, that obedience to God's commandments is required to receive eternal life/salvation. But if you're talking about simply being obedient to God, then how can an unbeliever obey God if he doesn't believe in God, unless he chooses to believe in God, which is in itself a work of faith. A Christian believer who has just received eternal life/salvation, by an act of faith (confessing, among other things, that Jesus's work on the cross is enough to grant him salvation), can do nothing more to earn it, even through works of Christ or obedience to God's commandments. But works of Christ and obedience to God's commandments are done because one has already received salvation. But salvation is not a one time thing, where we receive it and it's all good (this is where Desire was getting at earlier). Salvation, according to Christian teaching, is a continous process, and that is where works of faith and obedience to God's comandments come in to ensure our salvation. "Ensure" as in to confirm, make sure, and "work out". But that does not mean we can add anything more to eternal life/salvation with "works" and "obedience to God's commandents", but "works" and "obedience to God's commandments" serves as a function that must be active in our relatinship with God for the sake of salvation. According to Christian teaching, we can not lose our salvation once we have "presently" received eternal life but we can throw it all away by forsaking God altogether through our total disobedience and absence of "works".

...We can interpret this two ways, and I think you're choosing the incorrect interpretation.

First, this statement can mean that the act of obedience itself somehow cleanses us of the taint of sin.

Second, this statement can mean that while Jesus alone can cleanse us of sin and sanctify us, he won't exercise this atoning power until we activate our covenant relationship with God by obeying His commandments.

If I understand your posts correctly, you believe the LDS position is #1 above. Well it's not. Let me put it to you plainly in one sentence.

No. Between those two interpretation, I was, and rather be, choosing the ladder. What I am informed of the LDS position is that you are not saved until you do all the good works as much as you can possibly can, and then you are saved by Jesus alone. If that is really the case for you, then is it like a job where you have to work your way up to earning salvation?

We are saved by grace, and we access that grace through obedience to God's commandments.

By obedience to God's commandments, are you saying that hearing what God has to say and actually listening to it is necessary to have God give us unmerited favor (which is BTW grace)?

While we can get caught up in semantics, the point of the above doctrine is that no, we cannot save ourselves; only Jesus can save us. BUT...we must obey God before we can be cleansed by Christ's grace.

I totally agree. We can be forgiven of our sins but that doesn't mean we are cleansed of it unless we start obeying.

In this sense, as I said earlier, our best efforts are not enough, but they are necessary. To use an embarassingly simple analogy (which are often the best), if we want to turn on the light in our bedroom, we flip a switch. Did flipping the switch create the electricity that provides the light? No. Flipping the switch merely grants us access to the electricity which is waiting to be used. So even though we don't create the electricity, we can't avail ourselves of it's power unless we do something, like flip the switch.

Of course, now you're making a little more sense. In order for us to receive salvation, it is on our part to put in effort to receive it. So my question is now, do your efforts add to the gift of salvation or is it part of the process of continous salvation? I say the process of contnous salvation because i want to make it clear that active salvation requires active works and obedience, while we still have the choice to drop works and obedience and salvation alltogether.

In the end, your assertion that we are justified by faith alone completely flies in the face of what Jesus taught in Matthew 19. And if there's a discrepancy between the teachings of Jesus and Paul (there's not), I think we'd safely say Jesus's teachings would be "more accurate." Something about him being God, all knowing, omnipotent, our Savior...stuff like that. As I said, there is no contradiction between Paul and Jesus, but there is a contradiction between your interpretation of Paul's teachings and those of Jesus. Can you see that?

I can't answer that question because you're not clear on reading what I'm saying. Jesus's point is that we are justified by faith alone, on the basis of His work on the cross, yet we are justified by works, on the basis of us being sanctified in God, as in being set apart for God's service. I.E. to cleanse sin or deny our "flesh" we do good works and obey His commandments.

Since justification is a statement from God declaring, on the basis of Jesus' atonement for our sins, that we are innocent, how can we suppose that there is anything we can do to add to it? Can we somehow become more innocent? Can we somehow add to the price Jesus has already paid? Yes, we do good works because that is what Christians do. Painters paint, carpenters work with wood, concrete finishers finish concrete, pilots fly planes, Christians do God's will. You do what you are but what you do does not change what you are.

Sanctification, being based on Christ's work on the cross, is a living active process by which God purifies the believer. This is where we are justified by works and obedience to God's commandments, in the sense of responsibility, as a believer.

To recap (and I hope my choice of words arent' confusing you), faith without works is dead but works are NOT the basis for justification. Works are the logical and necessary by-product of faith, but they are not the basis for salvation.

Jesus taught we must obey to be saved. Period. There's no getting around it, no matter how ardently we appeal to the Pauline doctrines on faith (our what we think they mean).

Of course we must obey to be saved! The bible says that if we beleive in Jesus then we will be saved. That in itself is obeying God. But I hope you understand that obedience and works add nothing to the gift of salvation but they are both a part of the process of active living salvation.

ApostleKnight said: "p.s. The end of the Matthew 19 passage I cited gives one more clue...Jesus taught what Paul would later teach in 1 Cor. 13...even if we obey and have faith, if we don't love as Christ loved, and follow his example of kindness and charity...we cannot be saved."

I agree.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

The above Matthew story, particularly, verse 21, does not teach salvation by works (see Rom. 3:23, 24: Eph. 2:8, 9). Rather Jesus was proving the error of the man's claim to have fulfilled God's Law (v. 20). If the young man loved his neighbor to the extent requried by the Law of Moses (v. 19; Lev. 19:18), he would have had no difficulty in givng away his wealth to needy people.

That's one interpretation. But consider, it that were really true, when the young man asked Christ what thing he had to do to receive eternal life, why didn't Jesus just say the bit about selling his goods, giving to the poor and following him? Why mention the other commandments? Because they weren't enough, but they were necessary.

A Christian believer who has just received eternal life/salvation, by an act of faith (confessing, among other things, that Jesus's work on the cross is enough to grant him salvation), can do nothing more to earn it, even through works of Christ or obedience to God's commandments.

I don't believe I can earn salvation. The word "earn" implies to give something of equal value, and a finite being can never give something equal to Christ's infinite and eternal atonement. I don't believe anyone earns salvation. I believe we qualify for it, through faith and obedience to God.

But that does not mean we can add anything more to eternal life/salvation with "works" and "obedience to God's commandents", but "works" and "obedience to God's commandments" serves as a function that must be active in our relatinship with God for the sake of salvation.

Seems like we're going in semantic circles here. I never said works "add to salvation" or somehow make Christ's sacrifice better. I said obedience grants us access to Christ's grace, as in my analogy with flipping on the light switch.

What I am informed of the LDS position is that you are not saved until you do all the good works as much as you can possibly can, and then you are saved by Jesus alone. If that is really the case for you, then is it like a job where you have to work your way up to earning salvation?

As long as someone is doing their best to live the gospel (LDS belief includes submitting to ordinances and authority as part of that), repent of their sins and love others as Christ does, they are in a "saved" state. In other words, if they died in that condition, they would receive salvation even if they didn't live as long as other "saved" souls and do as much "works" as they did. I believe the standard of salvation is twofold: First, partake of necessary ordinances; second, give our very best to God and mankind.

By obedience to God's commandments, are you saying that hearing what God has to say and actually listening to it is necessary to have God give us unmerited favor (which is BTW grace)?

I don't understand the question. If you're getting at the fact that people who've never heard of God and hence can't obey Him, would be denied salvation, you're missing an important LDS doctrine. We believe that everyone will have the opportunity to accept the gospel and its ordinances, whether in this life or the next. That's where baptisms for the dead and other proxy work done in temples comes in. We don't believe that getting baptized for someone else guarantees them salvation...just affords them the chance to accept the ordinance done in their behalf if they accept the gospel in the spirit world, prior to their judgment. So yes, to activate grace in our lives and be worthy through Christ of salvation, we must believe in and serve God.

So my question is now, do your efforts add to the gift of salvation or is it part of the process of continous salvation?

I've never heard the phrase "add to the gift of salvation" so I don't know what you mean. Consider a few verses from the Book of Mormon:

2 Nephi 2:8 "Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise."

2 Nephi 10:24 "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved."

2 Nephi 25:23 "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Moroni 10:32-33 "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God."

"And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot."

Since justification is a statement from God declaring, on the basis of Jesus' atonement for our sins, that we are innocent, how can we suppose that there is anything we can do to add to it?

When did I ever say that? I'm confused now as to what you think I've been asserting this whole time. I never said obeying commandments or serving God adds to Christ's atonement, increases our innocence beyond the cleansing power of grace, or anything like that. Christ's grace saves souls, obedience activates grace in our lives (not a one-time deal...enduring to the end is required).

But I hope you understand that obedience and works add nothing to the gift of salvation but they are both a part of the process of active living salvation.

I don't know who you've been talking to or what they've been telling you about LDS doctrine, but I've never heard of this "works adds to the gift of salvation" concept. Where did you get this?

[Stealth3si]

I've never heard the phrase "add to the gift of salvation" so I don't know what you mean......I don't know who you've been talking to or what they've been telling you about LDS doctrine, but I've never heard of this "works adds to the gift of salvation" concept. Where did you get this?

Of course you don't know. How can you? But to answer your question: Observation, my friend, observation. I'm doing you a favor buddy because sometimes we need an outside perspective on things. You'd be pleasently surpised at what you'd find out when a good friend is looking in from the outside. :)

As long as someone is doing their best to live the gospel (LDS belief includes submitting to ordinances and authority as part of that), repent of their sins and love others as Christ does, they are in a "saved" state. In other words, if they died in that condition, they would receive salvation even if they didn't live as long as other "saved" souls and do as much "works" as they did. I believe the standard of salvation is twofold: First, partake of necessary ordinances; second, give our very best to God and mankind.

LDS gospel.

What is the gospel?

Englighten me.

Please.

That's one interpretation. But consider, it that were really true, when the young man asked Christ what thing he had to do to receive eternal life, why didn't Jesus just say the bit about selling his goods, giving to the poor and following him? Why mention the other commandments? Because they weren't enough, but they were necessary....I don't believe I can earn salvation. The word "earn" implies to give something of equal value, and a finite being can never give something equal to Christ's infinite and eternal atonement. I don't believe anyone earns salvation. I believe we qualify for it, through faith and obedience to God.....Seems like we're going in semantic circles here. I never said works "add to salvation" or somehow make Christ's sacrifice better. I said obedience grants us access to Christ's grace, as in my analogy with flipping on the light switch.

I think you're right when you say we're running around in circles here. But first, what you do think about the theif on the cross and his salvation? I just wanna know what's your doctrine on that.

Anyways, we might be on different understandings between justification and sanctifiations in this topic. I hope we can be little clearer on these two terms, so here is Justifiation/sanctification 101: (BTW, i've inserted the biblical references for your curiosity but you don't have to look them or read them. You can take my word for it. :))

Justification is the process by which sinful human beings are made acceptable to a holy God. Christianity is unique because of its teaching of justification by grace (Rom. 3:24). Justification is God's declaration that the demands of His Law have been fulfilled in the righeousness of His Son. The basis of this justification is the death of Christ. Justification is based on the work of Christ, accomplished throught His blood (Rom. 5:9), and brought to His people through His resurrection (Rom. 4:25). When God justififes, He charges the sin of man to Christ and credits the righteousness of Christ to the believer (2 Cor. 5:21). Thus, "through one Man's righterous act, the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life" (Rom. 5:18). Because this righteousness is the "righteousness of God" which is "apart from the law" (Rom. 3:21), it is thorough; a believer is "justified from all things" (Acts 13:39). God is "just" because His holy standard of perfect righterousness has been fulfilled in Christ, and He is the "justifier", because this righteousness is freely given to the believer (Rom. 3:26; 5:16). Although the Lord Jesus has paid the price for our justification, it is through our faith that He is received and His righteousness is experienced and enjoyed (Rom. 3:25-30). Faith is considered righteousness (Rom. 4:3, 9), not as the work of human beings (Rom. 4:5), but as the gift and word of God (Eph. 2:8, Phil 1:29)

Sanctification is the process of God's grace by which the believer is separated from sin and becomes dedicated to God's righeteousness. Accomplished by the Word of God (John 17:7) and the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:3-4), sanctification results in holiness, or purification from the guilt and power of sin. Sanctification as separation from the world and setting apart for God's service is a concept found throughout the Bible. Spoken of as "holy" or "set apart" in the Old Testament were the land of Canaan, the city of Jerusalem, the tabernacle, the Temple, the Sabbath, the feasts, the prophets, the prisests, and the garments of the priests. God is sanctified by the witness of believers (1 Pet. 3:15) and by His judgments upon sin (Ezek. 38:16). Jesus also was "sanctified and sent into the world" (John 10:36). As the process by which God purifies the beleiver, sanctification is based on the sacrifical death of Christ. In his letters to the chrurches, the apostle Paul noted that God has "chosen" and "reconciled" us to Himself in Christ for the purpose of sanctification (Eph. 1:4); Titus 2:14). because our cleansing from sin is made possible only by Christ's death and resurrection, we are "sanctified in Christ Jesus" (1 Cor. 1:2, 1 Cor. 1:30; 6:11). Numerous commands in the bible imply that believers also have a responsibility in the process of sanctification. We are command to "be holy" (Lev. 11:44; 1 Pet. 1:15-16); to "be perfect" (Matt. 5:48); and to "present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness" (Rom. 6:19). These commands imply effort on our part. We must believe in Jesus, since we are "sanctified by faith in Him" (Acts 26:18). Through the Holy Spirit we must also "put to death the evil deeds of the body" (Rom. 8:13). Paul itemized the many "works of the flesh" from which we must separate ourselves (Gal. 5:19-21). Finally, we must walk in teh Spirit in order to display the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-24).

So, as you can clearly see ApostleKnight, this is where your works and obedience is supposed to come in but instead you're associating them with "Justification" instead of justification.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

LDS gospel.

What is the gospel?

Englighten me.

Please.

Try reading the LDS scriptures (which include...yep...the Bible too). Then we can have a fruitful discussion. I am familiar with the Bible. I doubt you're familiar with the Book of Mormon, D&C or Pearl of Great Price. We're in an unequal position to discourse fairly. Let me give you one example of a pertinent passage you'd run across if you read them for yourself. Moses 6:58-60, 62 reads:

58 Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying:

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

Pretty clear explanation of justification and sanctification and how they fit into the gospel. Do I expect you to believe my views? Nope. I do expect you to do your homework before you condemn a system of belief you are obviously unfamiliar with, though. Otherwise you're spinning your tires in theological mud.

I think you're right when you say we're running around in circles here. But first, what you do think about the theif on the cross and his salvation? I just wanna know what's your doctrine on that.

If he learned of Christ and his gospel, and rejected it, he isn't saved. If he did, and accepted it, and obeyed God, he is saved. Pretty elementary. The scriptures aren't clear about his spiritual inclinations or whether he was converted. Yes, yes, we are going to disagree about the use of the word "paradise" in Christ's response to the theif's plea. I interpret it to refer to the spirit world where departed souls await Judgment Day (and where the theif could be taught the gospel, see 1 Peter 3:19), and I'm fairly certain you interpret it to refer to God's presence or at least the abode of righteous spirits awaiting resurrection and judgment. We disagree. No surprise.

(BTW, i've inserted the biblical references for your curiosity but you don't have to look them or read them. You can take my word for it. :))

Smugness doesn't become you. As I said, I am familiar with the Bible and LDS members aren't allergic to reading it. Your definitions of justification and sanctification aren't news to me. What led you to believe they were?

So, as you can clearly see ApostleKnight, this is where your works and obedience is supposed to come in but instead you're associating them with "Justification" instead of justification.

Um...okay. Ignoring the glaring typographical error wherein you typed justification at the end of your comment, when you meant sanctification, I have no idea what leads you to this conclusion. No, I cannot "clearly see" why you conclude that my beliefs confuse justification with sanctification. I'd be intensely interested if you'd quote my exact words--from any of my posts--to establish in what way I'm confused about justification and sanctification. If you fail to do that, your judgment about my beliefs is untenable at best.

[Stealth3si]

Try reading the LDS scriptures (which include...yep...the Bible too). Then we can have a fruitful discussion. I am familiar with the Bible. I doubt you're familiar with the Book of Mormon, D&C or Pearl of Great Price. We're in an unequal position to discourse fairly. Let me give you one example of a pertinent passage you'd run across if you read them for yourself. Moses 6:58-60, 62 reads:

58 Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying:

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

Pretty clear explanation of justification and sanctification and how they fit into the gospel. Do I expect you to believe my views? Nope. I do expect you to do your homework before you condemn a system of belief you are obviously unfamiliar with, though. Otherwise you're spinning your tires in theological mud.

It's obvious that you are blurring the meaning between both by interchanging them. Or I could be wrong about your views. So what are your views on both and how they apply to your gospel, otherwise I'll elaborate on difference between the two and how each apply to the bible. But oh yeah you also use Book of Mormon, D&C and Pearl of Great Price as well as part of your doctrine, which lead to this verse: (Gal. 1:8-9). But that is besides the point. What are your views on both? I would like to know. :)

Smugness doesn't become you. As I said, I am familiar with the Bible and LDS members aren't allergic to reading it. Your definitions of justification and sanctification aren't news to me. What led you to believe they were?...Um...okay. Ignoring the glaring typographical error wherein you typed justification at the end of your comment, when you meant sanctification, I have no idea what leads you to this conclusion. No, I cannot "clearly see" why you conclude that my beliefs confuse justification with sanctification. I'd be intensely interested if you'd quote my exact words--from any of my posts--to establish in what way I'm confused about justification and sanctification. If you fail to do that, your judgment about my beliefs is untenable at best.

Earlier you did not assert your views on justification/sanctification when I clearly indicated that you may be confusing between those two, which tells the reader that you were unable (at that time) to correlate with your gospel and the two, let alone differienate between the two. But at the same time you may have missed it while reading the posts I don't have any preconceived notions about what you beleive that's why I ask so many questions about your belief system, but since I didn't get clear answers for all of them, and I don't expect you to due to our different terminologies, I had to give myself the benefit of the doubt and have you clarify them for me. But here is my very brief view on your beliefs and please correct me if I'm wrong.

BIBLE - The Bible is correct only as far as it is correctly translated. It is basically trustworthy. It is the only one of the four standard works (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price) that is not considered infallible.

SALVATION - Simple bodily resurrection. It does not simply mean forgiveness of sins. Jesus died for universal resurrection.

HEAVEN - Divided into three Kingdoms: Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. The Celestial is for perfect Mormons, the Terrestrial is for moral people and lukewarm LDS, and the Telestial Kingdom is for everyone else.

KINGDOM OF GOD - Celestial Heaven

HOLY GHOST - "A spirit man. He can only be at one place at one time... " (Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 359.) The Holy Ghost is contrasted with the Spirit of God which is the influence of the Godhead that fills the immensity of space which enables God to know what is going on. It is likened to electricity."

ETERNAL LIFE - Exaltation (exaltation to a Mormon means obtaining Godhood) in the Celestial Kingdom.

GODHEAD - An office held by three separate Gods: the Father who is a god; Jesus who is a god; and the Holy Ghost who is a god.

JESUS - Spirit brother of Satan. A god in the Godhead. He is Jehovah of the O.T. compared to Elohim being the Father. He was the first spirit child to be born to the Father and Mother gods.

ATONEMENT - The sacrifice of Christ that made resurrection possible along with the possibility of our earning forgiveness of sins.

PRE-EXISTENCE - We existed in heaven with God our (literal) Father before we became human.

So I ask you again, what is the gospel, according to your religion? As you can see I just used a generalized list so you don't have to give an elaborate answer unless you want to.

[Guest MrsS]

Every now and then, Mormons or LDS, dont' know which one they are, but most likely LDS, come visit my house. I'll try to remind myself to get a copy from them next time. B)

Stealth3si what is the difference between Mormon and LDS?